Will undressing prevent a TSA pat-down?
 

This is a serious question. Suppose I'm SSSSed and don't want to be touched by a TSA stranger -- and I really don't! Instead, I request a private screening and strip naked. How are TSA staff instructed to screen a naked man? Will they be content to see with their own eyes that I have nothing strapped to my body, or will they insist on touching me?

Incidentally, they are welcome to x-ray my clothing.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

I specifically requested this type of search the last time I was SSSS'ed. The supervisor refused me. My understanding is that airport strip searches have been found illegal when applied without suspicion of the individual, so it's probably the legal department that refuses to allow what you would like to request.

Of course, the mere fact that many, perhaps most, people would consider a strip search less intrusive than being touched in their sexual areas by a stranger suggests there's a court challenge win in it for us if we can find the right plaintiff and funding to bring the suit. I'm still hopeful Rhonda Gaynier will succeed.

There was discussion of the issue in this very long thread; I've linked to the page with some of the relevant posts:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showt...4&page=4&pp=30

The general result seemed to be that you cannot offer to undress in lieu of a patdown although it might be accepted at some airports.

Apparently TSA thinks the probability of appearance of impropriety is higher for a voluntary undressing than an involuntary patdown, which I find questionable logic.

"TSA" and "logic" -- two words that definitely do not belong in the same sentence.

Please note that I am not "requesting" to undress. I would simply do it! What would the TSA screeners do? Tell me to get dressed again so that they can touch me? Keep in mind that this would all be taking place in a private room. I would not be publicly exposing myself.

Bruce

Now that it's gotten colder, I've taken to wearing a large (i.e.: "bulky") sweatshirt with nothing on underneath and packing my coat in my carry-on out of sight of the checkpoint. I'm setting myself up to be ordered to remove my outer sweatshirt, and, complying like a good sheople, ending up walking through the metal detector bare-chested. I was just following orders. It will happen, it's just a matter of when.

Are you actually going to do this? If so, let us know how it goes.

I'd be weary of any undressing, as I'd expect the TSA to then try to "nail" you on some kind of public indecency or "no shirt, no shoes, no service" law / rule. :rolleyes:

I tried it once already. I was flying out of DCA about a month ago (a little warm for a sweatshirt, but I decided to wear it anyway.) They had a "carnival barker" TSA guy at the checkpoint droning through a loudspeaker about taking shoes off and other directives. As I got closer where he could see me, he suddenly adds "Remove all outer bulky clothing such as sweatshirts." to his mantra. The sweatshirt has a high neck, so it's not readily apparent I'm not wearing anything underneath. I got to the metal detector with it still on, expecting the moat dragon on the other side to repeat the request. He didn't say anything and let me pass through unscathed.

I failed this time. My next opportunity is next month.

If I fail again with the sweatshirt routine, I might switch to my Gortex running suit. In the running suit scenario, I'll zip the top up all the way and hope that the TSA secret agent thinks it's a jacket and makes me remove it. I'm planning to wear only a jock underneath the Gortex pants, hoping that I'll be ordered to remove the pants as well, because the whole running suit is an "outer garment."

You bet I'll report on FT!

Nice.

A tear-away jacket and tear-away pants would be even better. Maybe we can get "Team FlyerTalk" tear-away gear :D

They tell you to take your jacket off and BAM! it's off!

And with all of those metal buttons on the outfit, you'd be sure to get secondary.

:D

We should rename all the positions with a carinval theme.

A checked baggage screener could become "master magician" because of all the disappearing acts in people's luggage. :)

Carnival or Circus theme job titles?
 

Or circus theme ;)
Do carnivals or circuses have sideshows... hmmmmm, anyway, I think I saw a TSA bearded lady once. :eek:

Put me down for a "Team FlyerTalk" tear-away outfit!
:D

Just so you guys know someone has already done this. One time when I was on the WTMD I asked the lady in front of the line to sent her jacket through the x-ray and the guy behind her took off his sweater and shirt. When I told him it wasn't necessary to remove his shirt he said "it's okay, I just want to help out" At that point I requested him to put his shirt back on before coming through and he did. An airport checkpoint is not a beach and I don't want to see anyone's bare chest male or female. It's disruptive.

:D :D :rolleyes:

It's disruptive? Please nominate this for hypocrisy of the year.

True that. It's no day at the beach.

Interesting point. If I remember correctly, in the early days of the age of fear a Frenchman disrobed (in MIA?) and was arrested. It was definitely public.

I suspect that the private room would still be called a public place, legally.

Screeners really have no clue what they do for a living do they?

Repeating myself just to be clear, I would undress in a private area, not at the checkpoint itself and certainly not in public view. I would not be disruptive.

My question is really not that difficult: Would TSA screeners be content to look at my obviously bare skin and not touch me? That's it. Can somebody answer this question?

Bruce

Bruce, I think you already have your answer. Since it's not SOP for passengers to take off their clothes (unless you're a woman and they drag you into a stairwell, apparently), and since it is an SOP requirement that they do a pat-down with secondary, they will pat you down. Whether they fine you, have you arrested, and/or make you put on your clothes before the pat-down is another question entirely.

I was going to post a link to the post from October where a guy reported having the police called on him in SEA by TSA for taking his shirt off, but then I realized it was you. :)

Personally I think it is more (hypothetically) interesting to consider approaching the checkpoint in a minimum state of dress. It would be perfectly legal, although somewhat cold, for a male in the USA to approach a checkpoint wearing nothing but swimtrunks/boxers. Some screeners (maybe LEOs too?) might claim it's disruptive, but it's not obscene or public exposure or anything so I think the claim is baseless. If said pax had SSSS, would TSA still wand their torso or pat them down?

(In some but not all USA locales it would be legal for a female to do the same as there have been cases regarding discrimination/equality when it comes to required clothing and also clarifying that mothers nursing in public are not breaking the law.)

I've tested this concept over the past three weeks, and during that time been selected twice for SSSS (I haven't gone out of my way to get selected) FWIW, I'm male, 29, a business traveler and usually pass through airport security about 4 times a week.

In MKE I asked for a supervisor and explained that I wanted to not be touched at all by any TSA employee, and offered to got to their private area and remove any clothing in areas that they wanted a closer look at. He agreed, and asked not only for the usual witness TSA employee, but also a LEO to accompany us to the private area where I removed my shirt - kept the pants on. They also had no problem when I asked they change gloves before that felt around in my bags.

In DEC I was flatly refused, and the supervisor immediately called over the LEO because I was a disruptive passenger. When I restated my request to the LEO he told me in a kindly voice "why don't you just comply and you'll be able to fly today?"

YMMV

For those keeping a list, it was BOS where I was refused the chance to exchange a flash for a grope.

the enigma
 

I know what you are getting at. IF you approach the cp barechested, you will not get patted down in the cp. If you approach the cp with a shirt on and take it off there and run it through the xray, you wont get patted down. You might encounter security in LEO or private form at this point. If you approach the CP and walk through with a shirt on and get sent to secondary screening, you may not take it off. You will get patted down.

Even if I request a private screening and get undressed there? Does that make sense?

Bruce

yep
 

even if you request private screening. you start to show skin and the fun stops. They will call a leo. You can call their bluff on it and try.

Can I ask the LEO to screen me? Seriously!

I just don't like strangers touching me. They can look all they want. Is this so unusual?

Bruce

theres no hope
 

There was an incident in DEN about two years ago where this exact thing happened. The man said that we could not touch him. The screener called a lead, who called a supervisor. The man kept saying that we could not touch him. (as he ate his ice cream seated in a chair at the cp) The leo came over and the man said that he did not want to be touched. He further stated that he would strip for the search. The leo took him into a private room and the man stipped totally naked. The clothes and shoes were x-rayed and the man was allowed to go after he got dressed. There are some other details that I wont go into. Suffice it to say that the LEO ate it big time in a IA investigation. Since the rules say that we dictate the screening process, the rules are now standing that no one is allowed to show private areas. Therefore it is not your option to strip. It is not ours either. I know that it sucks. I dont agree with it. But you have to be patted. I appreciate your concern and candor on the issue.

what about?
 

What about wrapping yourself in bubble wrap? I have thought about doing this just for fun, and see what they would do as you walked thru the check point? I am also trying to locate some of the bins so I can make a backpack out of them, and find a smaller bin that will fit inside so I can put my laptop in its own bin.

Ideas?


~icorproadie

Admission
 

I have to admit that I've not flown since early in the summer, pre-Chechnea. Although I did see a FA being wanded, and only her, no one was touched by a screener. Maybe I just happened to hit a time when no one set off an alarm. I do recall the line being very short.

So, are you saying that screeners DON'T change gloves between patdowns?

If that is true, it would be another great way to tie up the lines - demand that gloves be changed.

Prehaps a TSA employee could comment on if there is or is not any policy that states how often gloves are changed, but even if there is, I know it's just human nature to not change the gloves EACH time. After all the screeners wear gloves to protect them, not us.

I would guess I've had my carry-on bags hand searched in SSSS 8-10 times in the past few years, and the only place that gave me any attitude about change gloves before they touched my bags was EWR

FWIW I'm the type of person who would ask my Doctor or Dentist to change gloves in front of me if I hadn't seen them do it(knowing that they should have just from force of habit) the point is I want to watch the doctor or screener or sandwich maker at the sub shop do it where I can see them so I know it's done.

In spite of the sanitary issues (made more prominent by the government screwing up flu shots), making screeners change gloves is one way to assert what little authority passengers have these days. Yes, it slows things down. Yes, it inconveniences screeners. So what?

When it's time for my gate-grope or the search of my carry-on, I usually wait until the last possible second, look surprised at the screener and say (in a calm, non-threatening manner, of course), "I assume you're going to change your gloves before you touch me (or my stuff)." If I get something short of "Yes, sir" or any resistance, my next exchange is (more sternly), "That wasn't a question."

If the box of new gloves is within my view, I simply make sure I demonstratively watch him change his gloves. If he disappears behind something, I will say, "I want you to show me that the box contains fresh gloves and I want to watch you change gloves because I don't want you to just fake it." Once, in DEN, I had a screener rummage through a bunch of drawers at the checkpoint and say, "I'm sorry. I can't find any that are my size." My retort: "That sounds like a personal problem."

Making screeners change gloves is one of the few forms of social protest we have available to us. I've had screeners and their supervisors whine and complain about changing gloves, but I have never had one absolutely refuse. I'm prepared to call a cop over if that ever happens.

I know it's petty, but darn it, it's worth it every time.

To make it even more painful for TSA, assert that you have a latex allergy (I actually do have one) and demand plastic gloves. They'll have to make a special trip to get a pair, and they won't be happy about it. :)

umm
 

We dont use latex, its nitryl or vinyl. WE dont change gloves unless they blow out (tear). We have to change them at your request. ITs a pain in the ... because they are hard to put on sweaty hands.

Cha-ching! Effective with my next flight, I am adding a new step in my screening proceSSSS. :D

Called me a puritan if you want (that'll be the first) but yeah I would say coming through a security checkpoint half naked is disruptive. Another time we had an old lady who got sent to secondary take off her clothes and throw them on the floor. Pretty much things came to a halt because most passengers couldn't believe what they were seeing. The same thing happened to a lesser extent with the previous example I mentioned. It's not something that reacts well with other passengers in line. There's a time and a place of everything and that's not it. :)

There is absolutely no excuse for a screener (or supervisor!) whining about changing gloves. What they need to remember is that wearing gloves is a two-way street. Sure, the gloves are there to protect us, no doubt about that, but the gloves are also there to protect the passenger from us (and other passengers). Maybe it's my germaphobia coming into play here, maybe it's my dental school background, but I change my gloves quite a bit, admittedly not between every passenger (then I use antibacterial gel on my gloves), but between every few. There is no excuse for not changing gloves and there's no excuse for not having any around.

OK, you're a puritan! :)

But seriously, I never suggested doing anything inappropriate at the checkpoint itself. I proposed requesting a private screening and undressing there -- and only there. I wouldn't be disrupting anything. And the interests of "security" would be well-served because any fool could see that I was carrying no weapons or explosives. I cannot understand the TSA's determination to touch me when I offer an even better alternative. It really makes no sense. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is happy to be naked but greatly resents being touched against my will.

Bruce

A couple of years ago at ORD, I was SSSSed and requested a private screening. This was before the new pat-downs. I went into a room that was hardly private. It was filled with people getting their own "private" screenings. We were literally bumping into each other. It was a madhouse.

I started taking off my clothes and didn't stop until the screener said, "OK, that's enough." He took a look at me in my underwear, felt my clothes and let me go. I'd do it again any time.

Bruce

I hadn't thought about this angle. I'll definitely throw it into the mix next time I have some fun with a screener.

I don't know, Bruce. Call me unreasonable, but I don't want to be touched or strip for them, especially in the name of false security.

But I certainly agree with your preference to be visually inspected.