What's the standard?
Aug 10, 2004 | 12:11 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Upper Midwest
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What's the standard?
I was reading the Monday Morning QB, and a familiar topic came up: what's the TSA standard? He was covering multiple training camps, and started taking a log of what airports did what regarding taking off your shoes. I've found the different standards to be confusing too.
Here is his log (article):
I too wish there was a standard and then sticking to it.
Here is his log (article):
I would like to report on the various rules about taking off shoes at security checkpoints around the country. I am reporting this because, if you travel, you must be as confused as I am about the rules for wearing shoes or not wearing them through security.
NEWARK: Woman in white TSA shirt says shoes must be removed and sent through the X-ray machine.
DENVER: "Remove all shoes," the TSA woman said. "Including sandals."
SAN FRANCISCO: "It is strongly recommended that you remove your shoes," a security woman said. I did.
LOS ANGELES: No one said a word about removing shoes. I left my New Balance sneakers on.
MINNEAPOLIS: "Do I take my shoes off?" I asked the TSA security man. He said he would advise I do. I did.
GREEN BAY: Not a word about the shoes.
INDIANAPOLIS: Not a word about the shoes, though after I set the alarm off and got wanded on the side by a security guy, we found out that my foil-wrapped wet-nap from Auntie Anne's Pretzels was the offending metal object, and I am not kidding.
NEWARK (for a second time): I say: "Should I take my shoes off?" And the guy on the other side of the X-ray machine hand-waves me through. One airport, two rules.
ROCHESTER, N.Y.: Me to security gal: "Should I take my shoes off?" Security gal: "What have you got?" Me, showing my feet: "Sneakers." Gal: "You don't have to."
And so I am left to ask this question of the Transportation Safety Administration: Do you have any idea why some airports want passengers shoeless, some recommend it, some don't give a hoot and one airport has two different standards?
Not trying to be a shoe nerd, but could you please make a rule? I'd feel safer about flying if all TSA employees treated all passengers the same.
NEWARK: Woman in white TSA shirt says shoes must be removed and sent through the X-ray machine.
DENVER: "Remove all shoes," the TSA woman said. "Including sandals."
SAN FRANCISCO: "It is strongly recommended that you remove your shoes," a security woman said. I did.
LOS ANGELES: No one said a word about removing shoes. I left my New Balance sneakers on.
MINNEAPOLIS: "Do I take my shoes off?" I asked the TSA security man. He said he would advise I do. I did.
GREEN BAY: Not a word about the shoes.
INDIANAPOLIS: Not a word about the shoes, though after I set the alarm off and got wanded on the side by a security guy, we found out that my foil-wrapped wet-nap from Auntie Anne's Pretzels was the offending metal object, and I am not kidding.
NEWARK (for a second time): I say: "Should I take my shoes off?" And the guy on the other side of the X-ray machine hand-waves me through. One airport, two rules.
ROCHESTER, N.Y.: Me to security gal: "Should I take my shoes off?" Security gal: "What have you got?" Me, showing my feet: "Sneakers." Gal: "You don't have to."
And so I am left to ask this question of the Transportation Safety Administration: Do you have any idea why some airports want passengers shoeless, some recommend it, some don't give a hoot and one airport has two different standards?
Not trying to be a shoe nerd, but could you please make a rule? I'd feel safer about flying if all TSA employees treated all passengers the same.
Aug 10, 2004 | 8:24 am
#3
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Orange County, CA
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Posts: 1,681
Originally Posted by Bart
If you do not alarm the WTMD but are wearing shoes that have thick soles, you will be referred to secondary screening.
[snip]
This IS the standard.
[snip]
This IS the standard.
Aug 10, 2004 | 9:50 am
#5
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,129
Covered under here, if I wasn't a moron and confused ESPN with SI. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344585
Aug 10, 2004 | 10:43 am
#7
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Bart may not like it, but I would like him moved to DFW to end the shoe fiasco. It's the only place in the world that I am barked at to remove my New Balance running shoes at the WTMD (except that one time in Terminal B where there was no one else in line and I breazed right through without incident).
Originally Posted by L-1011
Thanks, Bart. When I read many of your replies, I'm beginning to feel it is almost worth driving to San Antonio and board a plane there instead of DFW.
Aug 10, 2004 | 11:33 am
#8
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: OKC
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Bart
In one of my other posts, I mentioned there are "leaders" and there are "managers." Being a retired soldier, I am a strong believer in leaders and have nothing but pure contempt for managers. Leaders are warriors; they set the example; they view regulations as guidelines and don't shackle themselves to the letter of the law when common sense dictates otherwise. Managers, in my mind, are non-leaders who were given positions of authority over others by virtue of an imperfect system that characterizes not only our federal bureaucracy but permeates just about every other walk of life. They lack the warrior ethic and are unable to make the right decisions when the going gets tough.
Aug 10, 2004 | 12:53 pm
#9
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The "Standard" Doesn't Matter
1. They don't like if you complain. I filled out a complaint form, on the spot, last week, for retaliatory secondary screening when I kept my shoes on after "recommendation" (enforced by physically blocking the entry until I insisted). Told "secondary" before I even walked through (same shoes have passed before without inspection). THREE different supervisors came over to try and see if they could "help me."
2. However, after you fill out the form, it is usually ignored. I did one a year ago at SFO. After 4 follow-up calls to the 800 number they said "You were supposed to get a call back from the SFO supervisor. However, he not only refuses to talk to you about this complaint, but he has refused to talk to us [the TSA customer complaint center]. All you can do is write to the administrator of the TSA." I wrote to the Administrator in January. Still no response 8 months later.
In other words, it would appear that the purpose of the agency is to give the appearance of doing something, give a job to a lot of people, and try to ignore problems.
2. However, after you fill out the form, it is usually ignored. I did one a year ago at SFO. After 4 follow-up calls to the 800 number they said "You were supposed to get a call back from the SFO supervisor. However, he not only refuses to talk to you about this complaint, but he has refused to talk to us [the TSA customer complaint center]. All you can do is write to the administrator of the TSA." I wrote to the Administrator in January. Still no response 8 months later.
In other words, it would appear that the purpose of the agency is to give the appearance of doing something, give a job to a lot of people, and try to ignore problems.
Aug 10, 2004 | 2:05 pm
#10
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Orange County, CA
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When I filed a complaint with the supervisor at DFW I also followed it up with email to TSA, not only to "[email protected]" which was given to me by the supervisor, but also to "[email protected]" which I believe GradGirl posted here.
TSA-ContactCenter answered me today (17 days later). That would have been OK, except they send a form letter that only contained a canned reply (available on their web site) to one of my two complaints.
So, I tend to agree with you that TSA doesn't really want the complaints, and when they get them, they just try to brush them off as quickly as they can.
TSA-ContactCenter answered me today (17 days later). That would have been OK, except they send a form letter that only contained a canned reply (available on their web site) to one of my two complaints.
So, I tend to agree with you that TSA doesn't really want the complaints, and when they get them, they just try to brush them off as quickly as they can.
Last edited by L-1011; Aug 10, 2004 at 2:11 pm Reason: spelling
Aug 10, 2004 | 3:54 pm
#11
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Originally Posted by MrFurious
Covered under here, if I wasn't a moron and confused ESPN with SI. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344585
Bart, thank you for the explanation. As simple as it may be, it does seem to be a little lengthy, running at 4-5 paragraphs for 'one' rule. Oh well, what can you do.
Aug 10, 2004 | 4:00 pm
#12
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by Bart
In one of my other posts, I mentioned there are "leaders" and there are "managers." Being a retired soldier, I am a strong believer in leaders and have nothing but pure contempt for managers.
Hey HEY
Not all Managers are as you state!!!
Aug 10, 2004 | 4:08 pm
#13
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,673
The standard should be as Bart stated. You don't want to take your shoes off and they are not profiled shoes (another wonderful policy) and they don't alarm then you should continue on your way. There should not be a punishment for not taking off your shoes.
Aug 10, 2004 | 8:12 pm
#14
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Originally Posted by aamilesslave
Bart may not like it, but I would like him moved to DFW to end the shoe fiasco. It's the only place in the world that I am barked at to remove my New Balance running shoes at the WTMD (except that one time in Terminal B where there was no one else in line and I breazed right through without incident).
I'm so tired of hearing about Richard Reid from the TSA robots...
Aug 10, 2004 | 8:34 pm
#15
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I have just returned from a trip to SEA where on the outbound (PHX) everyone had to remove tennis shoes and all other shoes in the line I went through. I thought this young looking guy might be better, but no such luck. After going through barefoot due to no booties being available anywhere near the actual screening area and my sandals being "profiled" (they look over 1", according to the screener), I stated my dismay with their being no booties available (and having to remove my sandals) to a TSA female who's response was "Richard Reid". 
On the return this am in Seattle, once again, all tennis shoes and other "profiled" shoes.
They also had this great system for first class and employees, you go into the lane with the elite and employee sign which goes nowhere. It ends and I guess you are to stand there until the woman about 20 ft further down sees you and decides to come over and check your bp, which is after you are well behind any other person who had gone into the "normal" line. Oh, if you are an employee, however, you are supposed to cut under the divider and smile at the TSA agent sitting there. If you are first class and ask about this, you are told to go wait for someone to get to you. Great system!! So, I stand there waiting for the preson checking bp, when she finally has time for me, I ask about the first class line, and the fact that I am further back now than I would have been if I had gone into the "normal" line. She tells me she doesn't work for security, and can't do anything. I look at her shirt which says xx airport security, and as tempted as I was to say something, it was just too early in the am for me! (5am).
Oh, all the while everyone in the "normal" line is trying to tell you that you went into the wrong place, and the entrance is "over there".
Sorry for my little rant, it was just stupid. But, the point of my post is that Bart says tennis shoes shouldn't have to be removed (unless you set off the alarm or have "thick soles") but in both PHX and SEA, I saw people being told to remove them.
On the return this am in Seattle, once again, all tennis shoes and other "profiled" shoes.
They also had this great system for first class and employees, you go into the lane with the elite and employee sign which goes nowhere. It ends and I guess you are to stand there until the woman about 20 ft further down sees you and decides to come over and check your bp, which is after you are well behind any other person who had gone into the "normal" line. Oh, if you are an employee, however, you are supposed to cut under the divider and smile at the TSA agent sitting there. If you are first class and ask about this, you are told to go wait for someone to get to you. Great system!! So, I stand there waiting for the preson checking bp, when she finally has time for me, I ask about the first class line, and the fact that I am further back now than I would have been if I had gone into the "normal" line. She tells me she doesn't work for security, and can't do anything. I look at her shirt which says xx airport security, and as tempted as I was to say something, it was just too early in the am for me! (5am).
Oh, all the while everyone in the "normal" line is trying to tell you that you went into the wrong place, and the entrance is "over there".
Sorry for my little rant, it was just stupid. But, the point of my post is that Bart says tennis shoes shouldn't have to be removed (unless you set off the alarm or have "thick soles") but in both PHX and SEA, I saw people being told to remove them.