Bad day at a checkpoint
 

http://www.sftt.org/article12092002b.html :(

I can understand how hard it is to find all this stuff when your performance evaluations are based on shoe removal, luggage pillaging, wanding, and ID checking. :D

Or when we allow pretty much anyone to drive uninspected trucks onto the tarmac!

Say, here's an idea, why not look into the reasons someone is so desperate to blow themselves up as a poilitical statement?

Hmmm?

Notice that these items are NOT in someone's shoes???

Wow -- all that found in his shoes?

Check out the IED powerpoint presentation :(
http://www.sftt.org/index2.html

To state the obvious: a metal detector would catch these weapons. Presumably the new explosives sniffer machine would detect these. I am happy to walk through these machines in an organized fashion; I would even be willing to walk through such machines at train stations, subways, etc.

But the efforts being concentrated on shoes and on ID checks are largely wasted. I want the TSA or its successor agency to look at behavior and for combustible materials, not for nail clippers.

At the WTMD, yes, ticket counters and curbsides, no :eek:

I would not be happy to walk through these machines at train stations and subways simply because it would make no sense to do so.Every rail system - local subway or cross country train - is vulnerable between stations and stops. A small bomb inside the cars makes no sense at all when a similat bomb under the unprotectable miles of tracks would do more damage due to derailment.

I think a lot of you miss the point behind tsadude's link to the powerpoint presentation on IEDs. The bad guys are quite creative in finding ways to disguise improvised explosive devices, and a bunch of you are still complaining about having to take off your shoes. While Richard Reid's shoe-bomb was very crude, it nonetheless was actually attempted. Credit the bad guys for conducting their versions of after-action reviews, summing up lessons-learned and coming up with better ways to improve IED attacks. The choice is simple: putting up with the inconvenience of having to remove your shoes or surviving the consequences of underestimating the bad guys.

And what will be the response if one of the "bad guys" not-so-creatively puts a bomb in their underwear or their butt?

I will never willingly tolerate the stupid, useless, un-American "inconvenience" of having to remove my shoes because it prevents nothing. And I hope that those who continue to espouse this idiocy are fired with prejudice for supporting this ineffective solution when other effective, non-invasive solutions are available.

I have had some stink bombs come out of my butt ;)

That is idiotic.

If the "Bad Guy's" have graduated beyond shoes, why the shoe carnival??????

If there are many more hiding places for a bomb than shoes, why the shoe carnival??????

The TSA is run by morons. From Rear Moron Loy all the way down to Checkpoint Supervisors. Morons. The ONLY reason flying is safer today than 9/10/2001 is due to the fact that Passengers and Crew will NEVER cooperate with terrorists again. PERIOD.

Closing the barn door after the horse has gone.

I would just looooooove to know how many bad guys have been stopped.

I don't mean those fools who have always brought their guns on board ... pre 9/11 planes were full of guns and we all know that some still make it through. I don't mean people with scissors, forgotten sharp things. I don't mean the harmless fuzzy ones.

I wonder how many dedicated, mobbed up with a serious "we're gonna take this airplane" terrorists have been stopped at the screening stations?

Reid was stopped by pax and FA's. The fellow who crossed with bomb materials in his car from Vancouver doesn't go to the TSA trophy book.

OF ALL THE PICTURES IN THE POWERPOINT PRESENTATION, NOT ONE WAS OF A CATCH BY THE TSA?

So, in how many millions of searches costing how many millions of dollars have we caught real "bad guys?"

Never say never. :(

How much worse would it be if no action was taken? Air travel took a giant hit as it was.

As proven by your responses: a lot of you DO miss the point.

This is quite non-responsive. I asked that why out of all the photos used by the TSA to illustrate the kinds of bombs that exist NONE posted here were taken by the TSA of a device captured by the TSA.

Israel is in a far different situation regarding jeopardy from suicide bombers than is this country.

A reasonable level of screening would be fine. The current inefficient and horrifically expensive circus is simply stupid. The holes are enormous. They can never be closed. To treat every single passenger as a criminal is ridiculous. It is tantamount to searching every single person on the street because there is a certain amount of crime, to testing the breath of every single driver because, after all, there are more deaths per year caused by drunk drivers than the total of people who died on 9/11.

Now we are planning to deploy explosive sniffers at all screening points. This while most of the rest of the country goes unscreened in any way.

In short, the hysterical fear generated by 9/11 has been institutionalized into an expensive charade which has taken on its own life. Like any bureaucracy it will grow and grow and grow and get less and less responsible.

As proven by your response: you DO miss the point. ;)

I dont think that any of the pictures I have introduced here are to suggest that they will get through the checkpoint. These are real threats that will probably be PRIOR to the checkpoint. Be aware of non-attended packages and people with bulky clothing in the summer.

(My bold added.)

Real threats? What non-sense!

No one is going to blow themselves at the approach to your silly screening station. Crowd is way too thin. There are so many better places: the crowd entering or leaving a ballpark, a crowded bus or subway train or platform where there is real density, maybe. But the religion of "sterile airports" cannot be questioned because it has become its own little world - an "Alice in Wonderland"kind of place absolutely free from logical constraints.

My, goodness. You really do believe this stuff. Scary. You forgot to mention avoiding people reading almanacs and pregnant women.

I have an idea which will make us all safer. Let's make all pregnant women subject to random search because, by god, there is a real and credible threat posed by them. Can't prove there isn't after all. Who knows how much C2 they could be concealing. I mean the indignity of them having someone paw their belly is worth the added "security" isn't it?

Wait a minute. All brief cases should be made of transparent materials.

We should spend the trillions necessary to put explosive sniffing devices at every intersection. Can't be too safe, now, can we? Bah!

We have a multi-billion dollar industry/government bureaucracy which will spawn:

- ever increasing levels of "must have" technology and thus ensure a market for sale of very expensive machinery.

- a self-serving and self-justifying agency rivaling the post office for efficiency, reliability and careful hiring practices.

- "security consultants" who are finding full employment for the first time since the days of "all the worlds computers are going to crash as the calendar turns to 2000". Remember that time of hysteria and nincompoopery? Remember the level of "compliance" required? It was aHUGE industry wherever people let themselves be stampeded into fear. The flaw was that it was short lived. No matter. We have a market now for ongoing fear and useless but reassuring money sinks.


Eeeeek! This plan is fool proof. :rolleyes:

I respect your opinion but I rely on the information that was passed on to me when I lived in Germany in the early 80s which is about the same being broadcasted now. Besides, what good would it do to bomb a sporting event? How would that effect us? There are plenty of aiports with long lines bunched together. Many of you have stated that the business passengers pay the most for tickets but they are not the sole source of income for the airlines. Multiple attacks at different airports would put them out of business for sure. I am not suggesting in any way that we should stay home and lock our doors but just be aware of things happening around you.

I think if you look at it from a science and engineering perspective, you will see how badly the TSA misses the point.

I can bring explosives past the checkpoint at will, regardless of whether the TSA clowns deshoe me.

As long as this shoe idiocy continues, you will never gain my cooperation at the checkpoint or anywhere else. "Report suspicious behavior"? No way! Stop treating me like a criminal first.

Here's the point you miss: YOU have the luxury of second-guessing security measures and criticizing TSA policies for the sake of nothing more than a mere inconvenience of removing coins, keys, cell phones, aluminum foil wrappers and PDAs from your pockets and taking off your shoes.

Although I agree that there is nothing criminal about having a pair of scissors in your carry-on and that most people who have pocket knives, leatherman tools, wrenches, even box-cutters and other prohibited items in their carry-on bags are guilty of nothing more than absent-mindedness, WE screeners cannot afford to allow the ONE would-be terrorist the opportunity to successfully penetrate a security checkpoint simply because YOU are inconvenienced by removing your shoes.

I will concede that some of TSA's security procedures are over-the-top and even go into overkill. I admit that I feel somewhat foolish explaining to a 75 year old lady why she can't take her 2-inch scissors with her she uses to cut open a bag of potato chips to compensate for her arthritic hands. Yes, there are a lot of improvements needed in TSA security measures to balance practical common sense with prudent security measures. But the people we are up against use the civil liberties we cherish to their advantage to smuggle bombs, guns and knives aboard aircraft. Drawing the line between sound security measures and respect for individual freedoms as well as dignity is no easy task.

Using this forum to take cheap shots at TSA or to brand TSA employees as morons doesn't solve anything other than to take a serious issue down to an emotional level. Pardon my arrogance, but in my previous line of work as an Army officer, whining is a sign of weakness and a character flaw that is reserved only for those who enjoy freedom or privilege at someone else's expense. I welcome constructive criticism. I agree that TSA needs a good, honest, no-holds-barred evaluation of its security measures to determine which areas need to be tightened and which ones can be relaxed. Risk management should prevail over risk avoidance.

In the meantime, "do you mind removing your shoes and placing them in the X-ray for further inspection, please?"

You are right. This is arrogance pure and simple. To label as "whiners" those who rightly complain that their privacy and dignity are being degraded is a cheap rhetorical device. Cloaking it in a contention that "someone else" is bearing the "expense" in this case is absurd. I am well aware that the military trots out this line as justification for not being scrutinized nor held to account,and sometimes in very dubious circumstances.

However, the "expense" in this case is the burden of the searched, invaded and criminalized. The TSA is not at risk and is bearing no special burden or expense. On the contrary. We now have yet another huge government payroll of non-productive people for whom we all bear the expense.

I realize that another attack will come on our soil sooner or later. The TSA will not stop it and could not stop attack by any dedicated, intelligent, persistent enemy.

It is window dressing pure and simple. That is why instead of getting an answer to the question "why are there no TSA photos of deadly intercepted devices and broken terrorists attacks" we get only a sanctimonious platitude about being whiners while others are heroes. Self-serving nonsense.

YES, I DO mind.

When the TSA is willing to ACTUALLY perform screening that will make flying SAFER, I will glady comply with those procedures.

Shoe Removal does NOTHING to make flying safer.

PERIOD.

Excellent points. I am amazed that so few note that transportation (aviation et al.) and related infrastructure are not the only targets or even necessarily the next likely targets. If one looks at what Chechen-based/-oriented extremists have been doing in Russia & other FSU states in the last few years, you get a pretty clear indication that the threat is merely re-directed elsewhere -- such as theaters, stadiums, restaurants/bars/clubs, shopping centers, festivals, train/subways, schools, and other social gathering spots (including public and/or private venues) -- in the face of security obstacles. They turned away from airports for a variety of reasons and instead focused on other concentrated venues for social gatherings or passage.

As the attacks in Saudi-land yesterday demonstrated, neither airports nor America herself are the only targets of Al Queda.

There are photos of artfully concealed weapons and IEDs and there have been persons found to be related to terrorist groups detained but the information is classified.



--Now someone will post that I am making it up or lying. Their normal response.

Artfully concealed weapons are found - and missed - everyday in every junior high school in urban America. So what?

We've been 'round and 'round about "persons found to be related to terrorist" groups before. This phrase in the mouth of the government means nothing. Witness the thousands released from Iraqi prisons in the past few weeks after being held for over a year, witness the American lawyer summarily charged and defamed in Seattle to the amusement and chagrin of the Spanish police ....

Show me the both of the things you list above together an "artfully concealed weapon on the body of a terrorist fully intent on taking over or destroying a plane" then there is something to talk about.

Otherwise, pleasse keep your tired boogey men.

Teacher49,
Now that Memorial Day is upon us, would you have sacrificed your personal convenience for a greater good by rationing for the wartime effort? Or would you have written the entire effort off as "window dressing?"

Clearly we won't come to any agreement on TSA screening procedures. Too bad you responded emotionally to one point and missed the entire gist of my post. As I mentioned, I agree that TSA methods can and should be improved. They should be oriented more towards managing a risk instead of avoiding it completely. However, until a better system is proposed, tested and implemented, it's the best one we have at the moment. Balancing prudent security with respect for individual freedom and dignity will always be a difficult challenge because someone will ALWAYS perceive that their individual freedom is being infringed upon.

I enjoyed the discussion and the banter on this topic. However, this horse is dead, so we ought to stop kicking it. I give you the last word.

No, I'll just say "so what?"

I suspect that the most artfully concealed weapon by far is the martial artist. Do you have any pictures of them?

I answered a question posted so someone wanted to know what.

Not really, most martial artist know to put their items in checked baggage.
We have pictures but I can't post them due to SSI (not losing my job).

^ Golf Clap ^

Beating a dead horse are hobbies for some here. :)

Yeah, it's Memorial Day weekend. Let's just wrap ourselves in the flag and hope the discussion goes away.

Harassing people by deshoeing them does nothing for security, and the TSA couldn't spell risk management on a good day, let alone understand whay risk management means and has absolutely no clue about probability theory and statistics.

I hope any TSA shoe fetishist employee who continues to harass people in this disgusting a disgraceful manner gets an earful each and every time it happens.

As NWH says, "F*CK The Security Guards!"

Their bare hands and feet?! :( They check their bare hands and feet in their baggage? That's gruesome, but I see your point, how else can you make sure that they can't kill someone on a flight.

Only now do I appreciate just how serious this security business is.

It has been said here again and again, the screeners are doing their jobs. As usual, you choose to blame the front line with your childish name calling. The screeners are following policy and procedures just like anyone else in any other job.

Call, email, harass your congressman and the administration of DHS and TSA but stay off the backs of the screeners!!! :mad:

Very generous, I am sure.

I read your post. We do agree that the TSA procedures need a throughout examination.

However, I go one step further ... the very assumptions on which the screening process is based need serious re-evaluation. Tinkering with a system which is founded on superstition, fear and window- dressing will make no real difference.

I do not bother front line people. I comply with and am courteous to those who do their jobs with civility toward me.

However, when the issues which are the basis for the way we approach the whole issue of screening - much less security - come up, I will raise my voice.

As far as you questioning my willingness to sacrifice. This question ... the very ideas of patriotism, service to country, sacrifice, etc. etc. ... are completely misplaced in this discussion. They have nothing to do with my rights and my duty as a member of a democracy to shout, "the Emperor has no clothes" when we are fed malarkey. As a TSA employee you have no more right to "wrap yourself in the flag" than I, as a citizen, have. In fact, you know nothing about me or what I contribute to my community and to my country.

Your comments and questions are presumptuous and insulting. Remember that loudly declared patriotism is the last refuge not only of scoundrels, but of people who have nothing cogent to offer in a discussion.

I agree that there are people who "beat dead horses." I experienced it just today as I passed through screening to fly to work. As long as the dead horse of non-sensical screening is imposed upon me, it is not a dead horse to protest it.

With best wishes,

Teacher49

You mean like the people calling all TSA employee shoe fetishists?