Checking firearms
 

Today I flew from OMA to STL on SWA with a firearm in my checked luggage. I have found many different airport procedures when it comes to checking firearms. When I left PHX earlier this week, I declared the firearm to the SWA ticket agent. We filled out their form, put the form in the lockable firearm case, inside my softsided locked rolling bag, and then I was escorted to the TSA inspection area who swabbed the bag for explosives but never looked at the declaration or gun. I had to wait for the sniffing to be completed. In OMA the SWA agent insisted that the declaration go outside the locked firearm case but inside the suitcase. SWA tossed it on the luggage belt as the TSA inspections happened elsewhere. (I use TSA locks inside and out) In DEN you are escorted to the TSA inspection station and they always open the case and look at the firearm. ATL opens the suitcase and looks at the firearm at a separate inspection station. IND and LAS inspections are handled behind the scenes after bags are tossed on the belt by the ticket agent. What variations do you folks find during your travels?

You might want to peruse this site:
http://deviating.net/firearms/packing/

As you have pretty much demonstrated most (all?) of the differences seem to relate to the different physical arrangements at the various airports...

The card placement doesn't seem like a drama.... unless they wanted it attached to the outside of the bag..as QF insists on in Oz...:mad:

In your case the tag should go in the locked hardcase with the gun. I use hardside luggage and then the tag goes in the bag not the guncase. The only thing is that you should not be using TSA locks. You are the only one that is supposed to get inside the bag and gain access to the firearm.

Despite what was said above, the declaration should be placed OUTSIDE your hard sided case, inside you soft sided luggage.

That would make the most sense. That way if they open the bag they can see the declaration when they see the gun.

That's why I always just check the hard case. There aren't any questions of where the declaration goes.

That is a pretty good summary of how the TSA cannot seem to operate with any sort of process efficiency or consistency.

What should happen? The TSA inspection should take place before the bag goes into the handling system and in the owner's presence at the carrier's check-in desk.

What does happen? Just about anything else, as the OP described it, including TSA violations of Federal firearm transportation regulations and contravention of common sense.

At SEA, the ticketing agent didn't even check to see if the weapon was in the proper unloaded state, just asked me if it was, had me sign a tag and told me to walk it down to the TSA inspection station. The TSA clerk put down his book, barely glanced at me, didn't even look inside the suitcase, and put it on the belt.

The whole process was much less hassle than I was expecting from the TSA.

That's better than the ticket agent that a friend of mine encountered that wanted to look down the barrel to see if it was loaded.

When I checked my gun a while back the DL airline agent was honest that she had no idea what an unloaded vs. loaded gun looked liked and that she was taking my word for it that it was unloaded.

She jumped out from behind the counter and escorted me to a door which leads to TSA baggage screening area (she asked me to wait outside and took, the gun, paperwork, etc. to the TSA for inspection which did not make me really happy) She returned a few minutes later that she stood with it (my gun) while the TSA screened it and handed it over to one of the bag guys to be placed on the plane.

Dan

I guessed at the time that my ticket agent probably didn't know how to safely check, either, and since I appear to be a mature adult, she guessed that I probably knew better than she did and left well enough alone.

I disagree. There are multiple processes to screen checked firearms.


I would like to point out something that no one has mentioned, because the odds of it happening are very rare. I have heard people state that to prevent theft throw a gun into the bag, thus the bag is checked in front of you, and so on. Ok, lets say that works, and often it will.

But what happens when and if you bag is put on the wrong plane, unloaded at another destination, and when the airline employees realize it, submit it for re-inspection by TSA, the lock is cut off, the gun found - and now your luggage can not go, stuck in an airport you are not.

As example, today I had to screen bags that the airline put on the wrong plane, then waited at the baggage claim area before the airline employees realized were put on the incorrect flight. So the bags had to be rescreened before being flown to their original destination. It doesn't happen often, but considering how many hundreds of thousands of people who fly in a single day, I would guess it happens thousand of times a day around the country.

I realize this is off topic, just wanted to throw this out there to make sure your aware of the possibility. Have fun discussing it by yourselves. :)

Add: the other day I remember having to screen a baby carriage that was put on the wrong flight. Family got it the follow day. Felt bad for them.

At that point, I think a simple call to the airline would be in order ...

"Hi, you're now in possession of a firearm for which you don't have a license. In your airport, that might mean that you're currently guilty of a felony. Furthermore, now that you've broken the lock, you're now wholly responsible if that firearm is stolen from my unsecured suitcase and used to commit a crime. When would you like me to call the ATF?"

At that point, I think the airline would find a way to get that hot potato back to you as fast as humanly possible.

Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of how this would really work; I don't own a firearm. My conjecture above is based solely on reading other's experiences here on FlyerTalk. :)

Thats because when you sign a declaration stating it is unloaded, then the respnsibility falls on you.

It should be pointed out that in most states it is not a requirement to have a license to posses a firearm. Now, I have seen some very interesting reactions when a lawyer took possession of a legal full auto rifle without having the paperwork for it. One phonecall to the lawyer with information about the laws that he was breaking got those guns returned very quickly.

Now, it would still be a violation of federal law since those weapons would have been transferred outside the state of residence of the previous owner without it going through an FFL.

So, still a crime but not the one that you think of.

So first I set out to blast SATTSO for being abrasive in his post so I wrote a snotty response.

Then I sat back and edited it, and I re-read the airline policy I had (the FARs dont address where the tag goes and in fact dont even require a tag)

I knew that FAR 108.203 required a declaration o a firearm in the bag. Then I remembered a problem I had in LIT, but I forgot that my issue was the reverse of what I had typed.

So since this is an airline policy issue we are talking about and not a federal regulation here is the policy of one major airline:

Declaration Form
• Baggage containing firearms will -not- knowingly be accepted for transportation unless a -signed- and -dated- declaration form is completed.
• The form must be placed inside the container with the firearm. If the container with the firearm is inside another bag, the form must be placed near the container with the firearm inside the bag - not inside the container with the firearm.
• Applicable to both Domestic and International travel.



The only thing that I think people do that is a mistake is that they are using TSA approved locks. The only person that should have the key/combo to your bag is you. If the TSA wants to open it you can provide them with the key while they open it and then they hand it back to you after they lock the bag.

As a matter of practice what happens is that the ticket agent goes with you to give the bag to the screener. After it goes thru, then you walk away.

In the case of airports where you cannot see the bag screening the airline agent will go back with the bag and let you know if it was cleared or if TSA wants to open it (with you present).

The only airports ve had an issue with are the NYC airports. They police were notified by the Attorney Generals office that they were operating outside of the firearm owners protection act (FOPA) by no allowing persons to trvel through with their firearms in accordance with the federal act.

In JFK,LGA, and EWR the airline agent will not allow you to check in your bag until they have a PAPD officer come by and verify you can have a weapon in NYC. If not, you get arrested, charged, and booked.

Even though it is not the airlines job to determine if you are or are not in compliance with NYC laws, this is exactly what they are doing. They should be checking your bag through.... but they detain you there until they can get a PAPD officer to come over.

See, I figured it there was a crime there somewhere. :) Thanks for providing the correction.

That is why I use flare guns, which are considered firearms under the FAR, but not by NY/NJ.

I'm not talking about having a license for your firearm, or any crime such ad that. You missed my point entirely.

I've had that situation occur, but in my case, the luggage was sent on to the correct airport without it being molested by the TSA.

Upon landing, and not finding my luggage, I immediately let the AA baggage people know that a bag with a firearm inside it was missing. You should have seen the firedrill that ensued. I've never seen so many AA supervisors in one place. I never bothered to tell them that it was a flare gun. :D

A few hours later the luggage was delivered to my hotel, undamaged, and locks intact. The fact that my locks were hardened boron steel probably had something to do with them being intact.

With respect, I think you missed my point.

Your point, as I understand it, was "sucks to be you with your luggage stuck in some other city with your firearm, and now because your luggage was opened during screening, it can't be sent back to you".

My point is this: sucks to be the airline with a firearm on its hands that isn't under the control of its owner. For example:

See? No problems for the passenger, only the airline.

Why would luggage, even with a firearm, not be able to be forwarded after it was opened? That makes no sense.

I doubt you had the situation I described. There are bags put on the incorrect plane, which the airline employees catch before they make it to the baggage claim area (non-sterile area). Those bags can be sent to their proper location without being screened.

And then it ASLO depends on the set up of the baggage screening area at the airport. Most L3s or CTXs will clear a bag without the need to open, even with a gun in it. Sometimes not. And sometimes those machines are not available so every bag has to be opened by hand.

So again, your situation was not the one I was describing.

No I haven't missed your point, but you have missed mine. What the airline would do is hand the firearm over to the police and then ship you the bag without the firearm. Let's just say I know this based on experience ;)

So, why would the airline give my property to the police?

Because of the laws concerning firearms.

Some states are quite draconian.

I would think this is especially true if they are sending the luggage across state lines.

The problem is that the airlines have then been the ones to transfer the firearm to another person. If they kept the weapon secured and reunited it with the owner then there is no problem. The airline broke the law by giving it to anyone except the owner.

Firearms dont always need a FFL transfer. You can ship it to yourself,or to a repair shop with no FFL needed.

So send it the day before via fedex.......

And now, I have a cause of action against the airline, for deliberately taking my secured weapon away from me and handing it over to law enforcement. Furthermore, it might be impossible for me to recover that property, since the state where the firearm was found might have local licensing laws (e.g. NY) and I might not have, or be able to obtain, a license in that jurisdiction.

In any event ... I still think the airline comes across much worse in your scenario ... which is why the airlines seem to take so much more care with luggage containing declared firearms. (Which was, after all, the original point of the thread ...)

True, however you can only ship a pistol by Fedex and they will require it be sent overnight as a non-FFL holder. Much cheaper for me to just check my rifle case with the five guns in it.

If you use the firearms for a living, getting them stolen after checking them in can ruin your whole day...Netanyahu's Bodyguard weapons stolen at JFK

I wonder what the backup-plan there was. Perhaps BATF had a few extra weapons they were willing to let slip through on the sly.

Well, thanks for not blasting me. Made for a much better day on my part. But I'm kind of curious, where was I being "abrasive"? :)

Its only the luggage with a firearm inside, and because it is not locked. Which is an FAA requirement. Not sure if airline policy is simply that because of the FAA, or if they collectively actively wish that, too.

Because the airline will not take possession of firearms or similar items as they would other items.

For example, if TSA discovers a flammable aerosol in your checked luggage that is not allowed, and the airline can not get hold of you, TSA does not keep the item, the airline takes possession of you. The name on the destination take and flight info is recorded, and if the passenger contacts the airline, they can try to have their aerosol shipped to them the proper way.

However, some things they will not take possession of. Often, more so depending upon the time of year, we find stray bullets in bags, no guns, just bullets. Again, TSA does not take possession of the bullet, NOR will the airline. The airport LEO takes it. This is actually pretty common throughout the year - stray bullets. And lets call them unsecured firearms, with no passenger to be had, well, it will not go, the police will take it.

We do find firearms not properly secured. The last one I found was a .45 rolled in news paper. The police went down to the gate, and got the man who's bag it was. But now imagine the situation I am describing where the bag is shipped to the wrong location, the lock is cut because the bag has to be re-screened - and there is no passenger there. The police will be given the gun.

And, again, it's the airline who will have a lot of explaining to do: (a) why the bag was sent to the wrong destination in the first place, and (b) why the bag was allowed to exit the sterile area in the first place, necessitating the re-screening.

Yikes a .45 rolled in news paper.

Responsibility is a big part of gun ownership IMHO.

Dan

I agree, a low level employee will be punished.

But how does that change what I said will happen? All I was doing was stating what could possibly happen - not saying which airline employee will be punished. And yes, the airline might pay to have the firearm shipped. But the passenger will still have to take time out of their schedule to handle all of that... changes nothing of what I said.

He wasn't arrested. I don't even think the police gave him a citation, which is their call. I believe he was fined by the FAA, and perhaps TSA.

In violation of federal law. The airline just transferred a gun that they had no legal ownership of to a third party.