^^^

There are quite a few ex-flyers here. I used to log 12,000+ miles per month at times during my career.

I got tired of the TSA, switched jobs, and now I don't travel by air *at all.*

Feel free to point out to me where I have done this.

Based on the airports you have passed through this year (long lines at all of them all the time? and in the elite line?), you would frequently have been unable to view the patdown process until you had already cleared the WTMD/NoS yourself.

Your observations of wheelchair pax are clearly limited. There are those who are capable of limited mobility outside the wheelchair. It doesn't matter what is on TSA's website - as has been frequently posted here, TSA's in the field will tell you that it is out-of-date or that there are local directives in place at their airport. Further, you do not say how this helps those who are confined to their wheelchair or who are at a checkpoint where the directive is that all pax must go through the WTMD unassisted.

These folks now have to be frisked every single time they fly. Certainly the ones I know well found the wand less obtrusive than someone's hands groping under their buttocks and between their legs.


I am familiar with all but two of these airports. As I noted above, standing in line doesn't give you a good vantage point for viewing the frisks. (Fortunately for me, I either fly different alliances or times than you, because I rarely spend more than 10 minutes tops in the elite line). I do, however, depending on the airport setup, linger after the checkpoint sometimes and observe how handicapped folks are treated.





You read too quickly or perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The TSO was yelling about laptops out of bags. Standard procedure. I did not have a laptop in my bag. As I progressed down the rollers toward the belt, he yelled it louder and (again) louder yet. He had been yelling it before I ever got in line. When he addressed me in particular, there was no reason to be rude. He clearly thought I had a laptop in my bag and wasn't going to take it out (why he would think that, I'm sure I don't know). So when I said I didn't, then he further challenged me, asking if I had any kind of electronics at all. ??? Excuse me? New arbitrary rule - if you don't have a laptop, you have to take all electronics out? No, I didn't have any electronics. At all. When I said I didn't, he still didn't let it go. Still holding my bag, repeating 'And no laptop in here? I'm not going to see a laptop on the xray?"

That was complete BS. I had a lot on my mind, didn't need that BS, no one else anywhere around (other pax or loudmouth's co-workers) needed that c**p. It was pointless, bullying, and unprofessional. It was yet another example of the randomness of the checkpoint. I follow rules. I may not like them, but I do try to inform myself and follow them. I do not like constantly walking into situations where the rules are....whatever they are. Where even two TSOs at two adjacent belts start arguing about what they are.



I travel quite a bit internationally. When I approach a checkpoint, I know what the rules are and what to expect. I don't get yelled at, the rules are the same from checkpoint to checkpoint, screener to screener. I get treated with courtesy and respect and professionalism.

I'm clearly not as well-travelled as you, however, because the only place I've ever seen large (or small) dogs at airports was in the US (customs) (plus plenty of world-class barkers at the checkpoints). Seen guns at a couple of airports, but never in the numbers I saw shortly after 9-11 in the US. And the guns didn't frighten me - why should they? I know the rules, they have been pretty consistently applied, neither dogs nor guns are a threat to my ability to fly.

So, you have never had a bad TSA experience, and if you ever do, you are confident that you will take it in stride. Perhaps you just do everything right; perhaps you also just don't meet certain criteria (like being confined to a wheelchair or hard of hearing). Remarkably, you have never even witnessed a bad experience, despite observations conducted during long waits in elite lines at a number of US airports. Not complete observations, since your vantage point while in line is pretty restricted at most of the airports you travel through and I imagine it is even more difficult if you are trying to observe while waiting when it is so busy that even the elite lines are very long.

Try accompanying someone who is profoundly handicapped through line sometime. Volunteer for it. Any of the many airports you transit regularly. Then post about how the experience went (for them).

It is not a "non event" for a cornerstone of the Constitution to be unilaterally dispensed with by a federal agency in this fashion. It may not bother you to have someone brush over, rub over, or manipulate your sex organs for no cause other than getting on an aircraft, but it does bother a great many people, some of them a great deal. Those impositions are not a "non event" for those people, especially those who get felt up every time they fly.

It is not for *you* to say what constitutes a big event for someone else. For people like Cissna, getting felt up all over her chest was traumatic to the point of not being able to function normally for weeks.

It is not a non event that you may be molested at any particular airport at any particular gate by any particular TSA stooge, and you have no recourse. Even if nothing happens on one flight, the chances are that it will on some leg, on some flight, on some day. People worried about the false positives and the seemingly blank check TSA has to then do whatever it wants. And you have no recourse. This is a big deal. It is harassment on a scale of millions of people a day, even though only a percentage of them get groped.


This charade is not effective, and none of this is allowed under our Constitution even if it were. And if this all is no big deal as you say, there is a h*ll of a lot of push back by the public on this, in many states, in many cities, and even in Congress. Clearly, a LOT of people see this as more than a "non event".

Worse.

The cause isn't "getting on an aircraft."

The cause is "making sure the slack-jawed dolt with the tin badge and blue shirt appears to be doing something useful."

I'm talking generally here, as that (to me) appears to be what a lot of people here are doing.

Not long lines all the time of course- didn't even begin imply such. And I'm not sure why you think I wouldn't be able to view the pat down until I cleared the WTMD / NoS? Certainly not the case at LAX T5.


I was addressing one limited part of what you said- "anyone...unable to go through the WTMD unassisted and without touching the sides is subject to a full-body frisk every time they fly." That is clearly not policy, and clearly not the case every time based on my experience (and to disprove a 'every time' statement...).

Yes, I said that.

No, I was addressing the one part of the statement I could speak to. I wouldn't dream of making something up that I didn't know about just for an internet argument. :D

Definitely not the case at T5 LAX. Don't have a real good recollection of the layouts of the rest (they all blend together), but I seem to recall a pretty good view at DEN as well.

Whoa now, I never said I've never witnessed a bad experience. I said they certainly aren't the norm. They definitely do happen though. As for me having a bad experience... I've had what apparently a lot of people here would term a bad experience- I've been yelled at about electronics, etc. Yes, it's rude and unprofessional. Yes, I filled out a complaint form. But all in all, you can largely ignore those things and they're pretty trivial.

And yet again, I'm not saying what's a big event for any individual. Or that other's feelings are not valid. And I've said the charade is not effective.

If you want to have this discussion, please don't try not to read in between the lines- generally, what I say is what I mean.

What I find interesting is page after page of attempts to make edscholl feel a high degree of empathy for this situation.

What's the point?

It doesn't matter.

He's already noted he thinks the entire thing is a farce.

TSA is counting on divisive discussions like this, where their detractors can be distracted by minutia and terminology.

Why not learn from him?

How can someone who seeks to reform/eliminate TSA reach the millions of Americans who are NOT enraged by seeing this video?

Those are the people who need to be jostled to effect real change.

I believe that you asked me something similar a few pages back when I referred to various leisure travel sites, so I asked around.

I consulted three people I have 'known' for quite a long time (two in real life as well as on the internet) who I generally consider to be logical and clear headed. None tends to get overly emotional or use hyperbole. All fly 2-5x per year, mostly for leisure, and none have strong feelings against the scanners and/or TSA.

The response was the generally the same.

If we want to get this message across to people, avoid hyperbole.

Avoid all emotional language such as Nazi, blueshirt, Smurf, pædophile, Nude-o-Scope, grope, sexual assault, and any other such language which could have a negative connotation or display bias.

As we saw on this thread, use of those terms can turn people off. And to be honest, there are probably some people who view TS&S as home to a group of nut-cases. I will admit that I used to think that this group used an excessive amount of tinfoil. I still think that there are some posters who while understandably upset, don't do much to further the cause.

That may sound harsh, and it may sound as if I am supporting Ed (which I am not), but I am just conveying the responses I received when I asked that very same question to the audience we hope to reach.

edscholl -

In terms of legal/not legal. This crap is a cut and dry violation of the 4th ammendment and violates the Constitutionally guaranteed rights. Also the SC has been pretty reliable in protecting people's rights with respect to the 4th amendment.

Not much doubt in my mind this is going to the SC either. There are 6 lawsuits run by very competent attorney's already ... and they are all looking for a big win here. The TSA, Obama, and YOU are going to lose.

You and the people like you are going to be relegated to the dirtbag dustbin of American history. And if the SC doesn't do it... when the next real-deal terrorist (not 6 year old girl) waltzes right through the irradiation/molestation gates and takes some planes out, what then is the TSA going to do? Body cavity searches?

The primary weapon used in 9/11 was box cutters ... and they -STILL- can't detect those in carry on luggage.

I wonder if I felt up edsholl's wife/girlfriend/daughter through her clothes in public if he would have a problem with it. Just stroking her breasts and labia and buttocks for a short while. It would be a "non-event" right?

I'm going to lose? Wow. How many times do I have to say I think the security machinations are a charade and need to be changed? What do you think I'm going to lose exactly?

and by the same argument, the first 20 million pat-downs may turn up nothing, but the 20-million-and-1st pat-down might prevent someone carrying something harmful on board an aircraft... justification for the work of the TSA (when following procedures etc etc)

I hope you didn't really say this. If you did, it was incredibly rude and uncalled for. I'd have punched you in your face if you had said this to me. Who do you think you are calling someone poorly educated and less intelligent than you? Since when do you get to decide what jobs are suitable for anyone you aren't hiring. I hope your children have to work in retail or food service one day, then maybe you'll see how much of a ..... statement that is. I hope you are not a role model for anyone.

So, America is spending $6.3 billion a year, groping children and putting humans in transparent cages like zoo animals for a 1 in 20 million change to nab someone who may get something harmful on board a plane? (Of course, whether or not they have the intent to use it is a completely different story.)

Wow, did the American public get sold a bill of goods.