Schiphol also has the screens clearly visible so the pax (and other folks in the boarding area) can actually look at the screen and see the highlighted 'anomalies'. Pretty interesting, actually - I saw one middle-aged bald fellow with a cluster of 'anomalies' on his face. He wore no glasses, too many 'anomalies' in too many places for it to be the result of an eyeblink, for example. Another guy had one 'anomaly' right in his middle - he pulled his shirt up enough to reveal the belt-buckle.

Without exception, I have encountered a higher level of courtesy and professionalism at non-US airports. I also encounter quieter airports (few or none of the loud taped messages, some of which don't even make sense), no barking, and although I have experienced gate checks, there are no random roving exercises plaguing pax right up until the plane door actually closes ('random' frisking in the terminal, 'optional' beverage testing, BDO exercises in the parking lot as well as throughout the terminal, including the bathroom, ID checks and bag checks at the gate).

Just to be clear: have you had a patdown in the US since the end of last October? If not, you haven't experienced the US (formerly known as 'enhanced') frisk. It is not a patdown, it is palms forward, inside the waistband (and sometimes collar) frisking.

I have passed through LAX and JFK several times in the last 2 years and each and every time have encountered TSA who have been rude, intimidating, aggressive and disrespectful. I have never once retaliated. As in any other situation where I might encounter such rudeness I’ve always believed that the best reply is to maintain my own good manners and remain polite in the hope that relations can remain civil.

Yes, what I said was harsh and spiteful and I was pretty much ashamed of myself as I left for making such a comment to her. However, whether it was tiredness, jetlag, or the disrespectful surly way she behaved towards me from the start, she pushed all my buttons that day and for once I did retaliate in kind.

Not pretty I know but if TSA constantly treat the general public with such disdain then I'm sure I won't be the last person to retaliate in such a way.

As already noted, for many reasons you can in no way compare that experience to TSA and air travel in the US.

Saying that you don't mind the enhanced pat-down because you had a pat-down in AMS has no relation to the current state with TSA.

it's the norm. but you don't hear about all the times people breeze through with no complaints.

Again, that poster did not pass through a TSA checkpoint. It is the norm OUTSIDE the US as we have seen on many threads here to have professional, respectful, efficient security screeners outside the US who do not perform theatre and who do not touch people inappropriately.

You can't provide any meaningful statistics to support that because there are none. (And I can't supply any meaningful statistics to refute it).

Do you assume that if someone does not file a formal complaint, they have 'breezed through'? That is ridiculous. As I and others have posted, it can be a real challenge just to get a complaint form. Then there's the challenge of getting TSA to accept it. If you think TSA is a responsive agency, perhaps you'd explain why they ignored reports of theft for months at EWR. Perhaps they were concentrating on all the folks who 'breezed through' and didn't bother to report a theft because they knew it wouldn't do any good?

Further, I wouldn't suggest relying on TSA's own numbers regarding complaints. EPIC has just released complaints that TSA claimed didn't exist about the NoS while it was still in test phase. Further, do some research about the TSA uniforms (when they were new) and the TSOs who experienced skin rash problems. TSOs complained that their own agency lied/underrepresented/denied numerous complaints about the uniforms.

Ultimately, I think the reason most folks post complaints is because most folks would really like to see the sysem be improved. I don't know about your line of work, but in my line of work, management focuses much more on problems that need to be addressed than on back-patting for what we have done well. We are constantly trying to improve, and we can only do that by focusing on what has not worked well.

We have gaping holes in our security and yet we waste time on ineffective and pointless procedures. Do you realize that security holes and time-wasting pointless activities are threatening the lives and well-being of folks who fly (and perhaps also those who work at airports)?

it is theater. but most interactions are non-eventful.

sure. but even the most rabid anti-tsa folks here have to agree that most tsa interactions are non-eventful, no?

no, but that's what i see in airports across the country.

That's a bit like saying that most proctology exams are 'non-eventful' and you 'breeze through' them.

You do them because you have to. And if one is particularly inept or harmful, complaining about it does not make you 'rabid'.

Uh, yeah, but just because I don't hear folks talking about them all the time, that doesn't mean that it's because they are enjoying them.

What you have seen from casual observation as you, yourself 'breeze through'? I daresay when you are 'breezing through', there's not much time to devote to observing while you are divesting yourself of your bits, getting scanned and reassembling your bits.

How many times have you actually sat down before or after security and observed for, say, 15 minutes or half an hour? How many times have you observed a wheelchair bound passenger being frisked? Since the wands were eliminated, anyone medically unable to assume and hold the position in the NoS or unable to go through the WTMD unassisted and without touching the sides is subject to a full-body frisk every time they fly. I assume you do not fall in this category or know anyone who does. For these folks, 'breezing through' is not an option and never will be again.

Just curious - there are certain airports that are particularly known for 'bad apples' at the checkpoints. Which airports do you generally fly through? How often? From your posts, I would assume you are flying at least weekly. There have been threads on this forum before about which airports/terminals offer the most (or least) professional experience. There are a couple airports that I avoid precisely because I have read so many complaints in the news and on IBBs about them.

I think we probably are defining 'non-eventful' differently. I don't consider 'non-eventful' and 'breezing through' to be synonymous.

I never 'breeze through' a checkpoint - I always feel apprehension - what are the rules today, at this checkpoint, with these screeners, how loud will the barking be (like the screener who repeated three times, shouting - yes, shouting, he had to shout to be heard over the barkers, that all laptops had to be out. Then he bothered to hold up my bag, asked if I had a laptop inside and did I hear that laptops are required to be out, then when I said I didn't have a laptop in the bag, asked if I didn't have 'any electronics at all?'- answer no).

Then there is the post-checkpoint apprehension - what new TSA games might I be subject to - gate check bags, gate check IDs, drinks testing in the food court, BDO in the bathroom).

Also, during the course of my own journeys through the checkpoints, if I witness another passenger being treated disrespectfully or lied to, I don't think that just because I'm not the current target, it's a 'non-event'.

Don't joke about this ... they will shoot you, and when they do, they will kill you, leave no witnesses, file some paperwork ... game over for you.

You are 8X as likely to be killed by a police officer than a terrorist.

A lot of this came out of an NYPD FOIA report. They shoot an average of 2-3 bullets and 98% of people shot don't survive, and it will never be in the headlines, they'll just plant some drugs on you or something if they don't have justification, demean you personally, find some selective piece of info from your past and spin it to win.

All interactions with law enforcement should be taken very seriously (I'm not kidding). They are the biggest bully on the street and they control all the cards.

I'm pretty sure that number is low by several orders of magnitude.

Define "non-event"? Is sexual assault, touching of testicles and penis, against my will, without my consent, and without probable cause just to use public transportation for a business function a "non-event"?

Then I guess I had a "non-event" at LAX last week.

It was also a "non-event" that the guy was rude/disparaging, had his tongue hanging out of his mouth flapping and saying "I thought it was for her" directed at the women behind me when I had clearly told -HIM- that -I- was opting out. He got aggressive with me after I said "that was entirely inappropriate" ... until I think he saw me looking at his badge-ID info at which point he apologized in a sort of whispering whiney voice (made me think he didn't want it being record on TSA audio or something).

I've been on two flights since Nov., the first one I canceled and got a refund after the TSA Ombusdman basically told me it was a requirement that I am molested or irradiated to fly, the OMBUDSMAN told me this, the supposed "impartial complaint airing people LOL"... so I canceled my flight and made alternative arrangements. For this one last week I didn't have a choice. ATL was fine, I avoided the scanners by using the line-skipping method, no big deal. LAX was hell on earth, I almost punched the guy groping me. I almost did ... I came "THAT" close to it. Then I would've been in prison. This is probably the closest in my life I've come to committing a federal crime ... just to use public transportation, just to make a living. Ahh yes, another "non-event". Almost 20 years in prison for me and it's a "non-event" ... -THAT CLOSE- man. I'm not going to put up with this .....

Is risk of being imprisoned because you don't want to be sexually assaulted or irradiated by defending yourself a "non-event"?

I have no idea what I'm going to do if my children are required to fly before these policies are fixed. The TSA isn't molesting my children and nor is it irradiating them, I'll tell you that much ... it's not going to happen.

I have no further flights planned and am actively avoiding all air travel until these policies are changed. I will never fly through LAX again. I don't trust the people that run that airport. There is -NOTHING- professional about them. I simply don't trust them, nor their judgment. They are basically gangsters on a bullying power over people government power-trip.

These people are scum. They aren't "nice". They aren't "professional". They are child molesters doing these things, under orders from the government, to people, for purposes that are not related to security. They have some other agenda for doing this crap. Anyone can look at that 6-year old girl and know she's not hiding anything substantial and that her risk factor is as close to 0% as it's ever going to get. Take the guns away from all of the police and we would have a safer public before government ordered child molestation.

I doubt that person will be me ... but I came -THAT CLOSE- last week. If it was my kids, no way I would've been able to keep a lid on it. I don't fear terrorists when I fly, I understand them, they are pissed off at being oppressed by dictators that we back, they aren't happy about having their cities bombed & occupied ... I get that. But now the U.S. government is starting to do this to its own citizens.

"Non-Event". We shall see. Somebody is going to go postal on these .....es, it's just a matter of time! It won't be me, I'll be avoiding flying ... but that day is coming. You don't mess with people's kids ... you don't do it. We, as a human species, are genetically wired to protect our families from oppression. This is -exactly- the sort of motivating factor that is incomprehensibly stupid with respect to security.

The TSA isn't protecting us from terrorists ... it's creating them.

Maybe that's what they want to do right? They are doing this to our kids to create "domestic extremists" so they can steal more money from our future?

Nothing good is going to come from this ... certainly not security.

No.

I don't consider myself 'rabid anti-tsa'; in fact I often post things 'in the interest of fair and balanced reporting'.

Had you asked me that question in January 2009 I may have agreed with you, but I don't now. My percentage of remarkable experiences has increased dramatically over the past 15 months.

If you are female, if you have a medical issue, if you wear a skirt, if you are the wrong colour, if you are the wrong nationality, if you carry a Nexus card or certain other variables you may well find too that you have now a higher rate of remarkable experiences than in past.

No, but complaining about a routine exam and calling it assault and molestation would.

Nobody's talking about anyone enjoying anything (other than the 'rabid' anti-TSA folks who are claiming that the screeners are enjoying touching their junk).

My collective time observing is certainly way more than that this year. one bad line and I'll easily spend that much time in line observing.

Wheelchair bound passengers can ask for assistance going through the metal detectors. I see this all the time (the medical line at LAX T5 that I usually fly out of is right next to the priority line). This is also stated on the TSA's website (and yes, I know many TSA employees aren't up to date on the info up there):
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...rial_1371.shtm

I fly most weeks (this week is the 2nd week this year that I haven't been on a plane). Usually originating out of LAX, occasionally BUR, SNA, or ONT. This year's domestic destinations/return airport have included SFO, SJC, DFW, SLC, DEN, DAY, CVG, JFK, LGA, BWI, DCA, MEM, DTW, BGM, and PHL.

You really feel apprehension about how loud someone might be, answering questions about if you have a laptop in your bag, gate checks, etc? Um, yeah, ok I guess, but wow. Do you travel internationally where they often have large dogs, officers with machine guns, etc in airports? You must really freak out.

That wouldn't be a non-event. Your screen would be.

Of course sexual assault is not a non event. But sorry, sexual assault is an actual legal term, and until someone has some case law that shows that some court somewhere agrees that the pat downs constitute sexual assault, they ain't.

So to answer your questions as to the facts of what happens in the pat downs, is someone brushing against your genitalia through the outside of your pants during a pat down a non event, yeah, yeah it is.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying happened here. Sounds like it boils down to the guy was rude? Yeah, that's not a non-event. A minor event though. :D


why did you almost punch the guy?

So don't fly them anywhere. Plenty of people never fly- what would "require" your children to fly?


why are there so many non-flyers here on flyertalk complaining about TSA? :D