Double Opt Out in Canada?
 

Does anyone know the consequences, if any, of refusing both the MMW and the patdown/frisk in Canada? Are there any official CATSA rules about it? Has anyone ever tried it? If the Canadian police are called are the rules any different for a foreigner? Are you allowed to videotape Canadian police? Luckily I wouldn't have to worry about the legality of showing ID since Canada doesn't have a no-fly list. In the US a $10,000 fine and arrest are just some of the possible repercussions. How about in Canada? If it is unknown and no one has ever tried it then maybe it is up to me to find out. My plan would be to take the bus to YUL and if I get selected for the MMW to try to flee the checkpoint and then flee the country by bus, making my escape. Hehe. Actually I really would like to see what the consequences actually are. Somehow I imagine them being less draconian than in the US. All I want is to be allowed to choose not to fly rather than be strip searched or molested. Is that really asking so much?

Potential advantages of a Canadian double opt out:

1. No worries about getting a space on the dreaded no-fly list.
2. No $10,000 fine. Even if there is a fine it is doubtful they could successfully extradite me to collect it.
3. Maybe less risk of arrest. Although this is uncertain. Based on my own experiences living in Canada about 10 years ago I would suspect that the Canadian police are less likely to be out of control, corrupt, thugs, who just want to break heads and prove to themselves and the world how powerful they are. I am hoping that the chance of encountering police like the ones Phil encountered at ABQ might be less.

Disadvantages:

1. I probably can't afford to stay in Montreal long enough to reschedule a another departure at the same fare to try to make it through the gauntlet again. I do miss the city (where I used to live), and would be happy to stay a few days, but much longer than that is too expensive.

2. Less information about procedures/practices. For instance in the US it seems that I can expect something like a 10-20% chance of getting selected for the NoS. In Canada I have no idea what the chances are of being selected. Maybe it's even higher. Although in Canada the selections are genuinely random, right?

3. There are two nearby airports which don't yet have NoS at all. I could fly out of those and probably have a much greater chance of being able to actually fly that day, but the consequences of being stopped via a secondary inspection refusal might be much more serious than it would be in Canada ($10k, No-fly list, arrest, trumped up charges, violent/dangerous, out of control LEOs etc).

You really need to do your homework. Canada has had a no-fly list since June of 2007 and it is now connected to the U.S. no-fly list, as well.

If you refuse the MMW and a patdown, you will not fly. And, since you would have already passed through the U. S. Customs preclearance at YUL, I would not want to predict the results of you trying to bolt the area.

As far as the rest of your questions, I have some ideas but no solid proof. So, why not go for it and let us know how it works out for you...

You won't fly. That is all. You say you will bit
go forth with the secondary screening and you will be told you hbe that option but you will not fly that day.

Pretty simple.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that.
Of course I do realize that. Same as the US. I can only assume that they cannot physically compel me to submit to the patdown. The question is what will they do? Has not a single Canadian said something along the lines of "If you touch my junk I will have you arrested"?

Sorry I didn't make it clear. I would be flying to Asia on a one way ticket. Surely customs pre-clearance would not be an issue, although it may be on the way back. Still it would be interesting to see what happened. Even if the checkpoint is manned by actual TSOs for US bound flights I would still be physically within the jurisdiction of Canada, no? Surely Canadian laws or regulations would apply. Not American ones. As far as bolting the area I didn't mean to imply that I would actually run or anything. I just mean leave with some haste unless explicitly forbidden and detained by CATSA. Does CATSA have detention powers? If not then I suppose I would just briskly walk away until accosted by some Canadian mounties on horseback who might choose to take me into custody.
I'd be interested to hear them nevertheless. Especially if you are Canadian.

I'll try to post the results of my experiment from my jail cell in Montreal. At least my fellow inmates will speak French. I can always pretend that I am in a French-Canadian version of The Prophet.

You do understand that as soon as I get selected for the NoS I don't want to fly, right? I just want to leave. So are you saying that there is no penalty for the double opt out then? No fine? No detention or interrogation? No jail time? I won't get put on the Canadian no-fly list or get beat up by a Canadian cop for being a suspected terrorist? It must be nice to live in a free country.

In Canada you are required to present picture ID at the gate. If you are flying out of country the airline can demand to see a passport at check in as they are responsible for ensuring that they do not carry inadmissible passengers.
You do not need to show your id to the screener.
You may leave the screening process at any time if you choose not to fly that day.
In matters with the police foreigners have the same legal protections as any citizen of Canada.If you are arrested you must also be advised that you have the right to contact your consulate as part of the VCCR.
Police may be filmed as they are public servants performing their job in a public area.

At any point, you are free to leave the check point. You may be asked questions as to why, but not interrogated, no jail time and no fine.

Although I believe that you will NOT receive a refund from the airline.

Thanks so much for this info.

I wouldn't necessarily be looking for a refund. If I wanted to try my luck again in a few weeks I would just change the date on my ticket. Air Canada charges $150 for that. Other airlines like Cathay Pacific, Korean Airlines, or Japan Airlines only charge $100. I'd take the bus back to Boston and just try again on the new date. Or, depending on the airline I might be able to change the departure city to one in the US and try my luck here, along with the greater risks/penalties that go along with the US DOO. Same reissue/change fee for that I think. Although the fare itself could of course be very different. Most American carriers now charge $250, which is prohibitive, but I am not planning to fly with them. It kind of amazes me that anyone is getting refunds for not making it through security. I don't really blame the airline for the TSA or CATSA idiocy anyway. Of course I guess it couldn't hurt to at least ask for a fee waiver due to the circumstances (where I want to fly, just without getting photographed naked or felt up).

Note also that reports have the CATSA opt-out patdown as being the "old-style" patdown - especially for flights not bound for the U.S. YUL tends to have a bit more attitude than screeners at most Canadian aiports but they're generally a million times better. You shouldn't have any problems, even if pulled for the scope as long as you were ok with the old patdown. As many posters have mentioned if you choose not to fly you can walk away at any time without penalty.

1. NoS is not used as primary.

2. Randomizer mat is used.

3. Should you be selected for secondary screening, note that Canada uses MMW (for me no difference, I don't go through either). However, you can choose either NoS or patdown (it's not really an opt out). Signage is everywhere and very clearly states that it is an option. Per Transport Canada's site: "Passengers selected for a secondary search can always choose between the full-body scanner, if available, and a physical search." Note that the scanner is an option "if available", not the other way around.

4. It is not the same "patdown" that is used in the US. It is pretty much the old style patdown with the waistband check (but rarely from what I have experienced). The big differences: it is not as invasive as in the US, it is done very professionally, the agents are generally very polite (YUL can be a being the exception at times but that exception is still 100 times better than in the US), same sex agents are there or come quickly and the secondary itself is pretty quick.

5. Why on earth would you "flee"? You have the option of leaving screening and just not flying. You don't need to "flee" in order to avoid a fine.

6. Canada and the US share information. Canada is not the US. It uses it's own procedures. It has, however, for US bound flights implemented some of the TSA's inane procedures at their request just like many other countries.

I think you need to do some research before you assume that another country's screeners will treat you like the TSA does, especially when you aren't even flying to the US. This is a good place to start: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/air-lmenu.htm

1. MMW IS primary if you are "randomly" picked for additional screening. Of course, one can opt out and then get a pat down.

2. Not all airports are using the randomizer mat. YYC (at gate A and going to U.S.) no longer uses the mat -- they scan the boarding pass and apparently it tells them whether or not the passenger gets additional screening. I seriously have my doubts about this method because I have been picked every, single time. That, in my mind, is not a random occurrence.

3. As mentioned earlier, with secondary screening, you definitely have to opt out if you do not want to go through the MMW.

4. I just had the new pat down on February 1st (after opting out) and it is much more intrusive than the old one. Waistband is checked. Breasts are now thoroughly checked with the palm, not the back of the hand. The hand runs up each leg until it meets resistance. The whole body (front and back) receives a pat down and the bottom of the feet are also checked. How is this not invasive?

1. I should have been more clear in that it is not used as primary unless you are selected. It is used as secondary if you alarm.
2. Fair enough, there are some differences. In your case, might you be on the "Passenger Protect" list or have a name similar to someone who is? I would look into it.
3. I've never had to opt out. Unless you call stating that you choose the patdown an opt out. Have always had both options given and selected the patdown but in fairness, I've not been selected for secondary very often flying from home (Canada).
4. Do you usually fly out of YYC? The reason I ask is that there have been numerous complaints out of Calgary including the senior citizen back in Oct and another incident with a 4 year old girl. I usually fly out of YOW or YYZ and have never had the patdown done as described above, even as recently as last month. I have had the waistband checked, back, arms, legs (not to resistance) but never palms on breasts. I agree that what you describe above is invasive. I wonder if the screeners in Calgary are watching too many cop shows.

I didn't mean actually running away. I just meant flee as in escape. I was thinking in terms of just briskly walking away from the checkpoint. Of course due to the answers of people like you I see that even that is not necessary.

Well this is my research. I dont know of a better place to find this sort of information, especially in a way that is up to date, reliable, and reflects the actual reality of the situation (as opposed to propaganda like on the TSA website). Thanks for the link. I will definitely check it out.

Until recently I was thinking along the lines that CATSA was much, much better than the TSA. That there was no comparison at all, but some recent posts had me rethinking that. And I didn't know until recently that CATSA also stuck their hands in your pants to do a "waistband" search. I haven't flown to Canada myself for a long time so all I can go by are traveler reports and US based travel tends to dominate on this forum. So I couldn't find much info on the subject.

As far as the scanners go I don't personally have any safety concerns. It's strictly a privacy issue. If I was departing from an airport with an ATR system I would probably go through even an xray scanner if I thought it would reduce my chances of getting groped.

I have read contradictory statements about the invasiveness of the CATSA patdowns. Since I doubt I could get the CATSO to agree in advance not to touch my genitals or butt crack or stick his fingers down my pants (the fact that the US TSOs actually pull out the front of your pants and peek down is beyond offensive). I think the sheer horror of TSA's insane procedures may have actually over-sensitized me to the whole thing so that even the slightest transgression will prevent me from flying.

If necessary I am prepared to take a train/bus all the way down to Mexico and fly out of Mexico City, but that would mean 3 days of overland travel. If only I could be sure that I would not be fined or prosecuted or no-fly listed for leaving the checkpoint I could at least attempt to fly out of BOS or MHT before resorting to departures from neighboring countries. I'm still considering those options. With this new information I can make a much more informed decision. It looks like YUL is actually a pretty good option for me. It's an interesting compromise between the certainty of Mexico City and the uncertainty and risk of my local airports. With Canada, while there maybe no guarantee that I will be able to actually make my flight, at least I do have a guarantee that I won't be arrested or fined.

It seems there are a couple of airports that are worse than others. I'm going to break tradition and use city names instead. Much like any country, each city in Canada has a different "culture". Calgary has had numerous incidents of what one might call "abuse" of overzealous screeners. Montreal has attitude but is still professional. Toronto is larger, loud and busy. You'll get fewer "Canadian" niceties there but they are still professional. Ottawa is fairly innocuous. London is much the same. I can't speak for Vancouver or any others at this time as I've not flown out of any others in years.

I can understand how flying in the US, or even hearing what's going on, would make you especially sensitive or nervous about the any CP experience. Best of luck in whatever decision you make and hopefully your trip is a good one.

I am not on the Passenger Protect list nor have I ever been. In fact, I just got a Nexus card in hopes that it will stop the nonsense.

Yes, I know all about the problems at YYC -- only too well, I might add. I am truly hoping that their attitude changes after all of the investigations are completed.