Groped In SAN
 

I apologize in advance for the length. This was my first time being groped and I needed a place to vent and to share my experiences.

Synopsis: Long wait...defective equipment and 2 TSO's who knew it was "silly" for me to have to endure the resolution pat-down because of a faulty piece of equipment that was "crap".

Flew out of SAN Sunday morning and was chosen for the nude-o-scope. I opted out. There was a little bit of a loud announcement that they needed a Male assist. I was asked to stand by a chair to wait for the guy who would be doing the deed.

I pointed out that I could not see my stuff the TSO manning the NOS said "there are cameras monitoring the area" presumably to convince me I had nothing to worry about. I then turned to another TSO and with a bit more forceful voice said "I can't see my stuff" she directed me to stand close to the baggage screening machine so that I could keep an eye on my belongings.

There was a significant delay, at least 15 minutes before they could get a male TSO...this, in spite of the fact that I saw several walking back and forth. Eventually, the ID checker was the one who did the standard pat-down.

At one point, as I waited, the WTMD agent motioned me to come through, it was tempting to do it, but I told her I was waiting for the opt out pat-down. I was afraid it would lead to a terminal dump if I skipped on through. I wasn't about to create trouble for every other person simply trying to fly from point A to point B. After a few more minutes, she apologized for the delay. A bit later, another TSO apologized for the delay.

All of the TSO's I encountered were polite and professional excepting the TSO manning the NOS, who basically glared at me as I was waiting.

Finally, I am called over by the TSO who would do the pat down. He did not "touch my junk". But he did run his hand around my waistband and flat handed my bum.

He then did the swab thing and, bingo, I alarmed. He asked me if I was a golfer and I confirmed this. Of course, this led to the resolution patdown in the private room. Unfortunately, there was another wait for a 3 striper but the room was being used and we had to wait some more. The 3 striper was called away and when the room became available we had to wait again until a 2 striper came in to do the resolution grope.

He did not grab my junk but he did rub pretty firmly with a flat hand. He then went back out with a new swab and a couple of minutes later I was released.

Here is what I found particularly interesting. As I was getting the resolution grope, the swab machine went off a couple more times and the 1 striper said to the 2 striper, there must be something wrong with the machine because nearly everyone is alarming and the numbers were too high. The 2-striper was in agreement. And, it was clear they were a little embarrassed by it and were somewhat apologetic towards me.

While the 2-striper was out getting me "resolved", I told the 1-striper that it sounds like they had some equipment issues and he said, and this is a direct quote, "It is a piece of crap". I don't recall exactly what he said after that because I was blown away by such a candid admission.

I got to the gate about 2 minutes before boarding began. Fortunately, I was able to use the priority lane or I could have missed the flight.

Sadly, I did not see anyone else who was obviously opting out...I did see a few folks who triggered the WMTD and NOS getting patdowns.

So, my take away from my first opt-out:

If you are planning on opting out, get there extra early. The whole pat-down process took a total of about 45 minutes because of the delays.:mad:

Don't play golf the day before you fly:rolleyes:

There are at least 2 TSO's who have enough common sense to recognize something as "silly" and "crap". Who knows, maybe they will have enough sense to quit this unconstitutional treatment of their fellow citizens.

There are not enough people opting out.:td:

One final point: It appeared to be about 50% going though the NOS.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Just say "No."

Disgusting. They treated you like a herd animal.

I did think about asking them to do it right there. But, and I don't exactly remember why, I got distracted, and forgot.

I guess it could have had something to do with the fact that I got up at 3:30 AM after having gone to bed a few minutes after midnight. I really was very tired and a bit groggy.

So, when you tell them you want the resolution patdown in the open, will they routinely try to give you any hassle?

Thanks!

Yep!

In the reso, did they tell you exactly what they were going to do? Did you get the impression you could have refused the reso rubdown?

It is indefensible that passengers get a genital rubdown simply because the TSA has crappy equipment and rampant false positives. I think our society is coming apart at the seams that this is permitted.

Is there a single TSA person on this board who sees the problem with this process and this reality?

Yes, both TSO's specified what they were going to do. I was also asked if I had any sore or tender spots.

No, I was not given the impression that I could opt out of the Reso.

Question. Can you opt out of the Reso and still fly?

Agreed.

Did she think you wanted a videotape of people stealing your stuff?

thanks for the info. Next time, possibly try saying that your groin is esp tender from a childhood injury and cannot be touched...:rolleyes:

You won't fly that day, that much is certain; there is doubt as to the rest, as there is a threat of an $11K fine if you don't complete screening once you start. Given the highly evolved f*up that this process has become, I would doubt TSA would want any more high profile light thrown on it, but who knows. A good lawyer is indispensable just to make a stinking flight!

Sorry if it's obvious, but what does golf have to do with alarming the ETD?

Fertilizer, lots of nitrates particularly ammonium nitrate and anhydrous ammonia this time of the year. And some very serious chemicals for weeds, vermin and other living things that affect the somewhat hard to maintain grasses.

I have to say this every time at BOS and this is usually the response I get.

I tell them that having a video of someone taking my things won't actually replace my things.

This is also why I started not taking my netbook out of my bag. I have about a 25% success rate of not being asked to remove it anyway but more to the point, they don't remove it until they are done feeling me up and then I can see where it is.

That would depend on exactly when the brainless twits had their last "retraining" session - most of them require one at regular intervals or they start just making up lies to tell people so as to exercise their power trip before they're caught again.

SAN finished up a golf tournament not too long ago.
Great time to use a machine that can't tell the difference between fertilizer and explosives.

Some fertilizers are explosive, when combined with an accelerant. They can not tell a difference because there is none chemically.

I wonder what they would do if I told them I get erections easily.? :eek:

This proves to me even more that SAN retaliates.

And some hand lotions, evidently. and who knows what else.

Getting your genitals rubbed because you participated in legal activities, beneficial activities like golfing, does not that seem wrong to you TSA? To have this done to you for playing golf, walking in a public park, or using the wrong hand lotion is beyond simple assault. It should be prosecuted under RICO.

Premature TSanation. They're already used to that and have the protocols ready. They jailed one poor fellow who couldn't contain himself. [well, maybe not yet, but with 700 million served, it's just a matter of time ing]

That was debunked, remember?

yep. fixed the post....thanks.

This one always sets off the swab for me.....

http://www.neutrogena.com/product/mo...by=bestSellers

It's GLYCERIN-RICH!! Don't you want to have ultrasmooth hands so you can play touch and tickle with your favorite TSO? ;)

:D

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So I take it from the highlighted statement that they did nothing to you that could not have been done out in public. Is that correct?

I had a very similar experience flying out of SAN on Saturday! When I told the TSA agent routing folks through the NOS that I was opting out, he actually told me that he was a microbiologist and knew all about radiation levels. I don't know if he was pulling my chain or not but he neither questioned, disputed, or reinforced my opting out. I stood by for about five minutes. Interestingly, toward the end of this time something started going wrong with the NOS and they had to start routing people through the WTMD. Oh, and also interesting, the lady behind me was drop dead gorgeous and wearing a low-cut top and they sent her through the WTMD for no apparent reason. This tells me the TSA is very sensitive to the charges that have been made about their use of the NOS.

Anyway, at a certain point the same TSA agent tells me if someone does not come soon in response to his repeated requests for a male assist, that he will do it himself so I can be on my way. I think that was BS because he clearly had a job to do routing folks into the NOS; he was clearly just trying to placate me and bide time.

Also during this time I mentioned that I could no longer see my belongings and he immediately had me move over to where I could see them - he did follow procedure here.

The initial pat-down was very professional. They kept my posessions with me the whole time, the agent told me in advance everything he was going to do, made sure I saw him change his gloves, and in fact did not go all the way up when he was patting up the insides of my legs. At the end I actually commended him for his professionalism. But then the gloves alarmed and I was told I would have to go to a private room for a resolution pat down with another TSO. I protested and said they could do it in the open. They refused and insisted I go to the private room. I acquiesced at that point, not wanting to cause myself further grief.

The pat-down in the room was very thorough. He *did* go all the way up, and all the way around my pelvis with quite a bit of pressure using the front of his hands. Although he did tell me everything he was going to do in advance and asked if I had any sensitive areas. It was invasive and annoying and clearly a violation of my fourth amendment rights, but other than insisting that the second screening be done in the private room they did follow their own procedures.

From now on I'll take the time to drive to SNA.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9550/5.0.0.1015 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Correct. It was basically the same patdown with the addition of going further up and actually patting my groin.

Someone mentioned retaliation...It crossed my mind as I was waiting for so long to get the initial patdown that retaliation might be in the equation because a lot of male tsos were wandering around the checkpoint.

Have we determined whether or not you HAVE to go for the private room resolution pat down if they say you need it? I started a thread on this awhile ago, but I don't think it was ever truly determined what the policy is and what legal rights you have. This article describing a woman's experience with the private screening is terrifying to me.

As a woman who travels alone frequently, and who doesn't want the extra radiation of the NOS machines, I am really worried about what my rights are and what I can reasonably expect to do and have happen to me if I don't want to go to the private room. Does anyone know?

ha. Only in this case, it's the TSO who needs it, as he practices the bull durham "roll your own" procedure on your willie.

Well if it gets to the point of me requested to go to a private room, I'll let you know what happens after I refuse.
Beleive I've seen a secondary pat down in public on a fairly large lady who refused, watching each breast being lifted up and felt around is ridiculous.
But I'd still refuse to let others know whats taking place, and hopefully someone with a camera.
Nowadays I travel knowing I might not wind up on the plane; and not due to weather or malfunctions.

where are all the TSA posters on this? Do they think it reasonable for you to be felt up in this way when clearly it was a false positive? How many thousands of times has this been done to people and how many of those have been found to be carrying explosives in those areas? (we know the answer to the explosives part: NONE)

Clearly this would not meet any existing SCOTUS test for reasonableness.
Disgusting that any of those people would assent to be a part of this.

Always get them to put on new gloves, from the box/dispenser, not from a pocket. Always get them to swab the clean gloves before they touch you or anything else. Try to avoid the things you know will alarm (ie: no glycerin hand cream, fertilizers, etc). You can't avoid everything but one would hope you could limit the likelihood of alarming.

The only reason that patdown is done in a private room is to protect them because they don't won't the public to see just how creepy and offensive they really are allowed to be with a passenger.

I am dismayed by the number of people here who will willingly accompany TSOs into a private room for the resolution screening. I will not, under any circumstances, permit this -- government clerks have no legal authority to require that I go anywhere. If they want to do their reso pat-down, they will do it right there, on the spot, in front of everyone, so that I can have assurance that there will be no funny business, no "tests," no theft and no harassment. This is one issue I'm willing to take to the mat.

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Agree with you 100%.

So what happens if they say you have to go into the room and you say, "No"? What if they get a LEO and the LEO says you have to go to the room?

Seriously, what legal recourse do you have in this situation? I really do want to understand where we as passengers stand. I DO NOT want to leave the general screening area under ANY circumstances because I am afraid of being in a private room with these people. Whatever they need to do they can do in full view of everyone. I do not agree with their right to do it, in fact I think it's completely wrong, as well as stupid because it doesn't keep us any safer. But I won't stop them from strip searching me, if that's what they say they have to do. But I will NOT go into a private room for their extra search.

But, if I'm that insistent, what will happen? Will I be arrested? Detained? What will happen?

Honestly, I'm terrified of flying because of this whole security situation. I'm terrified to being told I have to go into the private room. I have nightmares about it before upcoming flights.

Any serious knowledge about what can happen to a passenger who refuses to go to the private room?

I would do what PTravel does. He's a lawyer. Hopefully, in this case, he doesn't have a fool for a client...:cool:

I will calmly and politely ask the LEO, "Under what authority?"

Well, I have more than most, as I'm a lawyer. I will explain to the LEO that, as a matter of law, the TSO's authority is limited to conducting an administrative search to screen out WEI. I am willing to submit to that search because I need to fly, but I do not consent to it and reserve all my legal rights. An administrative search does not permit me to be detained, nor does it permit me to be removed from a public area.

Either the LEO will agree with me, or arrest me for interfering with the screening process, at which point I am fully prepared to both defend the criminal charge and pursue the constitutional issue, to the Supreme Court if necessary.

I can't give you legal advice. My personal belief is that both the resolution screening and the current pat down exceed the constitutional limits of an administrative search and, as such, violate the 4th Amendment.

Under no circumstances would I ever agree to a strip search in this context. If a TSO insisted on it, I would call for a LEO. If the LEO refused to interfere, I would turn on my heel and exit the screening area.

Do an FT search on Phil Mocek. The answer is, there is no way to tell, but don't expect either TSA or airport LEOs to understand the law, or to follow it.

You have my sympathies. I don't share your fears because, as a lawyer, I feel prepared to deal with the consequences of refusing to have my rights reserved under the 4th Amendment compromised by TSA or the police.

^^

If I ever absolutely must fly again, I will do so with the willingness to go to jail, and to spend significantly on legal recourse. I have no intention of ever allowing a grope or a scan. I would be mentally prepared to pay the price, allow extra time for travel, purchase refundable tickets, etc.

It is a shame that you would have to do this to travel in what was once a free and just nation, but there you have it. I'm a conventional law and order guy. It is just weird how I feel that people like Phil Mocek is a hero, and those who put him in jail are the bums. Paradigm shift weird. Then again, I never quite believed a person like Nurse Ratchet would ever be appointed head of something like HSA.