FlyerTalk Forums - Common law right to self defense

FlyerTalk Forums (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/index.php)

- Practical Travel Safety and Security Issues (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues-686/)

- - Common law right to self defense (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/1150439-common-law-right-self-defense.html)

Common law right to self defense

As TSA escalates its War on Americans, how long will it be before some irate father or husband cleans a clerk's clock & then successfully presents a defense based on the common law right to self defense? This is a well established common law right going back hundreds of years in the British system and inherited by us in 1776.

Just a few quotes from Google's Sixty Second Legal Research Service:

Quote:

"Where officers do not conform to the 'law of the land' they have
no authority and the right to resist them exists. A Public Officer,
as with a citizen, who unlawfully threatens life or liberty, is
susceptible to be injured or killed; for by such acts 'they draw
their own blood upon themselves' As stated in some cases, 'where
a peace officer has no right to make an arrest without warrant he
is a trespasser and acts at his own peril." 6A CJS., "Arrest"
Section 16 page 30; A sheriff who "acts without process," or
"under a process void on its face, in doing such act, he is not to
be considered an officer but a personal trespasser." Roberts v. Dean,
187 So. 571, 575 (Fla. 1939)

"A person has a lawful right to resist an arrest by an unlawful
authority, i.e., an officer without a valid warrant." Franklin,118 Ga. 860, 45 S.E. 698 (1903)

"What of the resistance to the arrest? The authorities are in
agreement that since the right of personal property is one of the
fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution, any unlawful
interference with it may be resisted and every person has a right
to resist an unlawful arrest. * * * and, in preventing such illegal
restraint of his liberty, he may use such force as may be necessary."
City of Columbus v. Holmes, 152 N.W. 2d, 301, 306 (Ohio App. 1058)

"It is the law of self defense and self preservation that is
applicable. "One has and "unalienable" right to protect his life,
liberty or property from unlawful attack or harm." "* * * it is not
an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer,
even though he may have submitted to such custody without resistance."
Adarns v. State, 121 Ga 163, 48 S.E. 910 (1904)

"A citizen illegally arrested "cannot initiate the use of force" and
neither do "words alone justify an assault." However, "when the officer
initiates the assault by physical contact, which is usually the case,
and there is an unlawful arrest, the citizen has the right to protect
his liberty to the extent of killing the officer." See Green v.
Kennedy, 48 N.Y. Rep. 653, 654 (1871) and/or Hicks v. Matthews, 266
S.W. 2nd. 846, 849 (Tex. 1954)

etc.

And it's not all that far fetched -- self defense was successfully claimed by Kevin Harris in his trial for the shooting & kill of U.S. Marshal William Degan at Ruby Ridge. Self defense by citizens clearly is recognized by federal judges even in cases involving federal officers.

I doubt there will any shootings at the checkpoints, but I would not be at all surprised if there is a proportionate response to some of the molestations that are occurring.

Very exciting prospect. I'd love to see an aggrieved mob go nuts and knock the WBIs over. Let me make clear to the inevitable TSA lurkers that I am not advocating violence at checkpoints against personnel. I am just interested to see what happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BearX220 (Post 15210539)

I'm just quivering in anticipation of the YouTube videos. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by BearX220 (Post 15210539)

This would be pretty much awesome. I'm definitely against violence. But I'd love to see half the line come to the defense of a citizen assaulted by a TSA screener.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jordanmills (Post 15210618)

This would be pretty much awesome. I'm definitely against violence. But I'd love to see half the line come to the defense of a citizen assaulted by a TSA screener.

An increasingly likely scenario as TSA fosters an "us against them" mentality. If they continue to abuse travelers, it is just a matter of time before this boils over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostInAmerica (Post 15210803)

An increasingly likely scenario as TSA fosters an "us against them" mentality. If they continue to abuse travelers, it is just a matter of time before this boils over.

Well... I'm REALLY against violence. But if someone forces my hand, I can't be blamed if I wind up laughing at the hole they dug themselves into, after the fact.

It'll just take one rape victim who's since spent years of self-defense training herself to avoid another attack who "loses her mind momentarily" when a sexual molestation at the hands of a TSO cause her to "black out and lose control".

Or a return soldier has a PTSD episode.

It's lunacy. Pure and simple. and it's only a matter of time.

Angela <><

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngEngland (Post 15211018)

Angela those are very real possibilities, and your right its only a matter of time, and a clerk is going to findout the hardway that when you mess with people the law of unintended consequences comes to play. It may not be something like a clerk getting ..... slapping to a full blown PTSD response placing a clerk in a sleeper hold and rendered unconscious post haste. I have saw it happen so fast that it was truly scary as I didnt think this person was capable of reacting that fast and rendering the nurse unconscious in seconds. If it wasnt for one of the techs knowing this person and knowing how to snap him (Command voice, issuing the command of "At Ease") out the nurse would have been in deep trouble.

Im not advocating violence, but Karma begets Karma and TSA has some major bad juju coming back around to bite and when it does. I dont want to be anywhere near the carnage as it wont be pretty.

I suspect that the violence, when it occurs, will be in the other direction.

These front line clerks are not exactly anger management and conflict resolution specialists. They know what they are doing is hated. Many of them privately detest what they are doing but they need the job. They hear the comments of disgusted and angry passengers directed toward them all day every day. One clerk with problems at home and a domineering stupid supervisor pushing them will be the one to lash out and physically attack a passenger.

The passengers know that they must only cope for a few minutes. It is an all day job for the clerks. I'm not saying I feel sorry for them. They are being abused as well by their bosses by being put in this position.

Going TSA may take on the same connotation as going postal before this is over.

I once popped out from behind a door to scare my dad. TWENTY YEARS after 'nam. I had never really thought about what he went through over there until that moment.

Like you said - FAST. I was against the wall SO FAST and then my Dad was crying and saying he was sorry and did he hurt me? And he didn't struggle with PTSD....it was pure reaction from years of training and depending on that training for survival.

It's GOING to happen sooner or later. With the power-hungry-principles in play - I' voting sooner. Especially with leaves coming up.

Angela <><

I can see a passenger with a history of PTSD, advanced military training, or a sexual abuse survivor slipping into a near-fugue state and causing serious physical harm to a TSA who *does* follow procedure, for goodness sake. SOP here *is* sexual assault, but most states' definitions.

This story of a rape survivor's experience is sickening - and if she'd "flipped" into anger, imagine the consequences. The TSA agent "stroking" her hair and face? Cupping her vulva with his palm? Wha?

So what happens when the SOP itself is a gross violation? From a legal standpoint, if the SOP *constitutes* sexual assault, what recourse does a passenger have if he/she uses violence in self defense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngEngland (Post 15213390)

IIt's GOING to happen sooner or later. With the power-hungry-principles in play - I' voting sooner.

I agree. It's not a question of if, but when.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prosaic (Post 15213532)

what recourse does a passenger have if he/she uses violence in self defense?

I think these will be interesting cases. Legally, the standard for self-defense in most states is whether a "reasonable person" would think they were in danger. That will likely fail, leaving what's esentially a "temporary insanity" defense, which may well succeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 15213637)

I think these will be interesting cases. Legally, the standard for self-defense in most states is whether a "reasonable person" would think they were in danger. That will likely fail, leaving what's esentially a "temporary insanity" defense, which may well succeed.

Or if your spouse or child is in danger, which seems to be happening somewhere in TSALand several times daily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 15213613)

I agree. It's not a question of if, but when.

That's for sure -- TSA seems to be doing it's best to heat things up at the checkpoints in their War on Americans.