My recent experience with TSA pat down
 

Flying out of ELP last week, decided to opt out of the "cancer" machine and was told to wait.

In a LOUD voice, first smurf "OPT OUT".

I am then told to walk to the "pat down" area -- thru the NON WORKING metal detector. Why not just keep the detector on and have the passenger walk thru and then do a light pat down?

Groping starts -- I was making some jokes about things moving up. Smurf asks "why did you chose to opt out?". I tell her that getting cancer is not very high on my priority list. Her response -- "These machines don't cause cancer". I just ignored her as a smartazz comment was on the tip of my tongue. But I chose to bit my tongue.

Groper smurf asks me to remove my wallet and watch and place in tray. I oblige. He then finishes his groping and picks up the basket and starts to walk away.

I ask him if I can follow him so I can keep "an eye on my belongings". He says loudly -- "NO, stay here". I said "If you decide to take my belongings out of my view, I will have to call a LEO and press charges for theft.

At that time, he puts down the basket and calls for a supervisor, saying loudly "that I am uncooperating".

Supervisor comes over and stops approx 6 inches from my face and say "Do you want to fly today?" loudly. Asks again louder.

At this point, I m getting a little pissed off. So, I tell her loudly to back up out of my space and tell her that she has ABSOLUTELY NO power to detain me and yes, I will fly today. I also tell her that I would like a LEO here now.

So, she calls them and 3 LEOS show up. The smurf who gropes me says "Impeding search". I look at the officer and tell him that all I was asking for was to keep an "eye on my belongings". I wanted to watch him put it in the xray machine and wanted to retrieve it on the security side.

The officer says that that is perfectly a legitimate request and sends the groper smurf along with another LEO to scan the wallet and watch. In the meantime, the head LEO is explaining the procedures to me and I listen to him. After he is done, I explain to him that I complied with everything except the issue with the belongings.

At that point, supervisor smurf starts telling the LEO that I got in her face and told her that she did not have the right to detain me. The LEO looks at me and asks if that was true. I said it was but after she was in my face asking "Do you want to fly today?". I even pointed to the cameras around and asked the supervisor to get the tape and replay the situation so the LEO can see how she invaded my personal space first.

Now, the LEO starts to notice that I know my stuff and makes the proper decision. He tells the supervisor to back off and let me catch my flight. She starts to protest and he shuts her down by saying "This gentleman did not break any laws nor did he have anything illegal, so unless the TSA can show proof, they need to let me go."

I gather my belongings, smile at the TSA staff that are looking at me THUNDERBOLTS in their eyes and be on my way. The LEO walks with me for a bit and when he is out of earshot, tells me

"Son, you know your rights. They don't. Next time, just call us before things escalate and we will take care of it in the proper manner."

And I did catch my flight -- on time.

Nice. But it could have ended better. The LEO should have at least threatened the supervisor with arrest for assault.

BTHO TSA!!!

Aggies: 1
TSA: 0

^^^^^^^^^^^

nicely done. ^

whoop!

You should have made a criminal complaint to the LEO for the sup making a terroristic threat with the intent of causing phyiscal/emotional harm.

bet that clerks sphinter would have pukered.

What a jackazz. I really hope you file a complaint! :td:

Once the LEO cleared you, I would have got a complaint form and the names and badge numbers of the TSO’s and asked to talk with the FSD at ELP, to review the tape after handing the FSD the complaint form to verify that the TSO was the one who got into your face and was the cause of the problem.

Sounds like another case of a TSO that needs to be fired.

Interesting question for an LEO, when a person gets about 6 inches from your face, that is close enough to easily transmit their germs directly into your nose and mouth, would that be considered an assault charge.

Mr. Elliott

This is totally opposite my friend's experience at ELP. She said the pat down was "no big deal" and everyone was polite, no yelling, no fussing, just frisking and that was it.

I've had a few minor incidents at ELP. Mainly I'm chided for not "looking at the TSO" checking my ID to "match the photo" (which is 7 years old.)

Whoop! Indeed. =)

Bravo, anaggie. Bravo* ^



*And no, not that bravo ;)

Don't know about germs, but it's certainly close enough to consider yourself physically threatened by the aggressor and thus deserves an assault charge.

It's worse than that. It seems many TSOs--including some who post here--don't think you have rights.

Oops, wrong thread.

That definitely qualifies as assault in Texas. Probably felony assault since it's committed by a public servant.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u.../htm/PE.22.htm

Penal code sec 22.01(a)(2)

Also note that the "do you want to fly today?" threat appears to be a terroristic threat under 22.07(a)(3).

I'm not a lawyer, et cetera and so forth.

WHOOP !!

Probably because everybody in the line was too busy being "sheep" and going thru the "cancer" machine.

I think my smurfs were drinking coffee and had to be called away from their coffee to pat me down.

I believe that a TSO previously posted on this site that a person has the right to keep their personal possessions in sight at all times, if this is the case, then the TSO who wanted to walk off with the OP’s wallet and watch for additional screening was violating SOP. I also believe that retaliation or threats are against SOP as well

That would also have shown up on the video tapes and grounds for a complaint.

From what I have been reading on these forums, I think the best course of action when you think a TSO is out of line or retaliating against you is to stop any conversation with the TSO, immediately ask for an LEO and the FSD, don’t get involved with any of the LTSO or STSO’s that show up, they are just one or 2 pay grades up from a TSO, probably former TSO themselves and all they will do is back up the TSO, because if not, it then looks bad on them especially since they are the TSO’s immediate supervisors there.

The reason for immediately asking for a LEO before any other communications between you and the TSO’s, I would tell the LEO that I don’t trust these people one second from making up stories and lying to protect themselves, it's to keep them honest.

The less you say to these people, the less ammunition they have to use against you when they go on their ego driven power trips with their threats of “Do you want to fly today” I wonder if that phrase is in their SOP manual, in all probability we will never know, it’s SSI.

If I am asked why I am opting out, which I believe they are not allowed to ask your reason why, I just say “My choice”, if they continue to pursue the matter, just tell them “you are violating SOP and I want to talk to your FSD now and get a complaint form”.

Before any pat down, If I can not see my personal belongings, I will ask that they be immediately be brought over to me or within view, if they refuse, then its “You are violating SOP, I want an LEO and your FSD here right now” and totally ignore any LTSO or STSO that shows up, other than requesting that they get a complaint form that you personally intend to hand over to the FSD.

From what I understand, the FSD is the management person in charge at that location and hopefully is more level headed and will be able to get the situation under control to everyone’s satisfaction.

So again, if you feel that a TSO had stepped way out of line, immediately ask for an LEO and the FSD, and do and say nothing else until they both show up. Personally I think that as soon as the TSO hears the words, LEO , FSD, & video tape in one sentence, they will back down.

Happiness is a TSO, LTSO or STSO being led away in handcuffs charged with assault or theft.

Mr. Elliott

That brought a smile to me face. Thanks for sharing ^

that is really good info...thanks

Good job. Kudos to the LEO.

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does FSD stand for? All I know is that if I have to "opt out" on the 24th and am asked to surrender watch and wallet there is going to be an issue that will likely transpire according to your outline above.

Federal Security Director - non-uniformed manager of one or more airport TSA staff pools

Just as an FYI - there is a glossary sticky here in TS/S to help with the specific abbreviations used by many posters here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...-glossary.html

this made my day :D

Curious, who is the FSD's employer? Also, isn't there another another job position with an acronym related to some type of security director with the airline you are flying on? Should they be requested too?

BTW, great post!

Thanks. I suppose, in the interest of creating an even bigger backlog, I should probably be requesting a supervisor-level LEO (Sgt. or higher), as I'd assume them to be more level-headed/experienced than the jr. LEOs.

The FSD is employed by the TSA/DHS.

You might want to ask for your airline's GSC (Ground Security Coordinator). When I've talked to the Southwest GSCs at Tucson or LAX, they have been top notch, fantastic and very concerned. This could just be WN, I'm not sure if UA/DL are like this as well. As the WN GSC in LAX said "I can talk to" the TSA higher ups, "but we're at their mercy, unfortunately."

I would take any level LEO over a STSO or LTSO any time, LEO’s are highly trained nowadays to analyze the situation before taking action. I know there are some LEO’s out there who think they are god, but they can be held accountable for their actions because they can be sued or punished by their superiors if a complaint is filed against them, I think they are few and far between. I would think LEO’s would be very helpful in some encounters with anal TSO’s

I would like add to my previous post that incidents where people challenge the TSA rules like removing belts or shoes or submitting to pat downs, you will lose these arguments no matter who you talk to, the TSA is in charge and if they say something like remove your belts and you argue with them, then they are correct in saying that you will not be flying today.

My suggestions only apply to TSO’s that you feel violate SOP and make up their own rules as they see fit, and use the bully pulpit to try to force passengers to cower at their feet, those are the ones that need to be severely disciplined. And this applies to all you STSO and LTSO’s out there as well, lie to cover up one of your subordinates, then you too deserve to be disciplined.

Would I have any remorse if because of my complaint, a TSO, LTSO or STSO was severely disciplined or even fired, absolutely not, as a matter of fact, it would make my day knowing that I was responsible for what ever happened to them, which of course I would never know because it is probably SSI, but I would at least know that there is one less TSO out there making peoples lives miserable.

Mr. Elliott

Good job!!! See... you know your stuff, I always smile to the cameras first!

Well, the LEO request will come if/when asked to remove my watch. Belt and shoes, whatever, but I don't hand strangers I don't trust items worth several times their monthly salaries just because they say so. A threat to keep me from flying if I don't comply amounts to strong-armed robbery in my book.

And indeed, I have a lot of experience with LEOs (research done with them when I was in school, largely focusing on their perspectives) and I agree. In fact, the first words out of my mouth when they arrive will be "Thanks for joining us, I asked for you to come over because I believe that of anyone in the airport you probably have more experience and training in balancing security and order with civil rights".

I checked the FT glossary (and Googled), but could not find explanations for these TSA-related initials: TSO, LEO, FSD, LTSO, STSO. Would someone be able to explain what the initials mean – and how the hierarchy works? From reading FT posts I have deduced that the TSO (“transportation security officer”?) is the lowest-level character that interacts with you at the checkpoint, but I am unclear who the others are and what their roles are.

All of those acronyms are actually in the TS/S glossary sticky: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...-glossary.html

Thank you! I didn't know they were listed and explained there. I'm relatively new to this forum.

No worries, that is the exact reason why I replied.

Cholula created that link two years ago because of the confusion of many of the acronyms that are unique to this particular FT forum, and several of us have made contributions over that time to help him update the information it contains. Unless he has a reason to update it, it tends to sit as the #3 link on the TS/S thread listing.

Well done anaggie! Thanks for the tips Mr. Elliott.

I agree 100 percent in letting the LEO as soon as they come over that it was you, not the TSO that asked for LEO assistance.

The most important thing you have to remember who you are dealing with, the minimum education requirement to be hired as a TSO is a GED, or relevant work experience like flipping hamburgers at McDonalds, so in some cases you are not dealing with someone who has even average intellegence, I don’t think passing an IQ test is a requirement for employment at the TSA. Put a badge on some of these dimwits, it goes right to their heads, they think they are god and can $hit over people when questioning their authority

Mr. Elliott

While I agree one would lose the discussion, and I know I am picking nits here but the "Do you want to fly today" in any shape or form is out of line. The TSO's job at that point is solely to determine whether I am worthy of passing into the secure area of the terminal. That means their retort should be nothing less than: "Sir, for you to pass I need to remove your XXX"

To the OP great story. Thanks, I am dreading when something that happens to myself.

Great information in this thread. Thanks to the OP and Mr. Elliott. Bookmarked the thread so I'm prepared should I ever encounter a similar situation.

I think ACLU or perhaps some travel-related organization not dependent on the government needs to put out the travel equivalent of the "patient bill of rights" that was compiled so that patients going into one or another medical facility doesn't abandon their rights because of the intimidating quality of authority figures. I wonder how one would go about getting that done. As some of the posts here demonstrate, law enforcement and perhaps others on the periphery of this process recognize there are legal limits to how TSO's "get the job done". But most of us are pretty ignorant. We are more likely to simply try to avoid the situation.

That's actually a great idea. It would eventually be co opted by Congress if legislation was to result based on its provisions.

Let's do this. I'll will work on it this week to see what kind of formulation looks good. Just drop hints in this thread and I will watch for them. Or if it takes off we could dedicate a thread. At the end of the week, we will have a draft to finalize.

It could be put in the brochures, on signs, on business cards.

The Flyer Talk Traveler's Bill of Rights.

This, is the kind of stuff I can do.

I love it!

This story quoted verbatim in Daily Kos