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-   -   BB has a thread up on AIT and ATR (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/1127469-bb-has-thread-up-ait-atr.html)

gsoltso Sep 18, 2010 2:04 pm


Originally Posted by N965VJ (Post 14693891)
The fact remains that puffers are effective in other venues, and pose no health or privacy risks. The only reason the Nude-O-Scopes are being rolled out is because of the Chertoff Group and other and other former TSA administrators that are now lobbyists. I don't see any credentials from Tom Blank that shows he is an expert on screening methods.

You are kidding right? Tom was a deputy administrator with TSA for about 2 years. I would be willing to bet he has had some pretty good insight and information on screening processes. Many machines work well in some locations, not so well in others. TSA determined that the puffers in their current format were simply not up to the task set before them. I liked the puffers, but if I have a choice between a machine that costs $120k and needs only rudimentary maintenance, and a machine that the agency spent $29.6 million on the program and procured a total of 207 units (only 94 of which were deployed) and over $6.2 million was spent simply on maintenance of the equipment - that is a simple choice based on the math. I believe the major concerns with the machinery were dirt/dust/gunk in the sensor inputs, and humidity. So far, those do not seem to have generated the same set of challenges for the AIT.

Scubatooth Sep 18, 2010 2:15 pm

Intentional Inconsistancy = Is nothing more then a nice PC was of saying "We dont have nor could buy a clue" and is a excuse for the extremely poor training and attitudes that travelers see of TSA.

As for your jedi powers, that is a laugh riot and is worse than the BDO BS that TSA claims is legit, but others say is BS. Those calling BS actually have degrees in Behavior science and Psychology, where most TSA employees (the ones i have run into around the country) there education is highly suspect at best based off there attitude, language and behavior i have encountered.

PhoenixRev Sep 18, 2010 5:26 pm


Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14696186)
Correct, I said checkpoint. In some cases where screening is conducted airside at the gates and in those areas, I guess a case could be made that we are the last line of security before you get on the plane, but that is not a completely true statement. Each individual person is their own last line of defense if you look at it literally (whether they choose to defend themselves or not). The point I was making is TSA is not the last line of security, it is the largest and most visible component of the security network.

We have TSOs that have brazenly posted on these forums that they are they are the last line of defense between the traveling public and their departing flight. You can try to soften it anyway you can, but the fact remains that type of arrogance is unacceptable.


The reason I say it is simply opinion is there are just way too many variables and it happened in the past - we have no way of determining what would have happened. TSA, TSAs opponents or 3rd party persons could conduct all kinds of theoretical testing and experiments and conjecturing and discussion - but it will always boil down to what seems to be the general consensus of each group... A majority opinion formed by that group. This is not a forensic situation where you have a clear set of steps or pathological checklists you can use to determine a definite outcome. Things could have gone better, things could have gone worse, things could have stayed exactly the same. We could drive ourselves crazy trying to prove things either way, and it would still come down to an opinion in the end.
Which still begs the question of why any TSO would make such an unsubstantiated and unprovable statement. I am curious to know if you are willing to call your fellow TSOs out the next time they make such a ridiculous and unfounded statement.


Saying something like preventing another 9/11 is an exceptionally broad statement. I come to work everyday with the intention of doing my job, doing the best I can and learning something new everyday to prevent any kind of an attack from happening. Another 9/11 is not a likely occurence in the current climate of this country - a plane with 200+ people on it blowing up is a much more likely outcome. I think the majority of TSOs come to work with a similar thought process. Like I mentioned earlier - false bravado or (to quote JKH again) "mock heroism" just does not have a place, as it serves no real purpose. However, working for TSA because you have a deep seated belief that you want to prevent attacks from happening on airplanes because of 9/11 is not truly a bad thing, in my opinion.
That's all well and good, but it still glosses over the ridiculousness of a statement proclaiming that the TSA is responsible for preventing another 9/11. The TSA did not make airlines put in reinforced cockpit doors and the TSA did not change the stupid policy of always giving in to hijackers demands. But from the tone of the some of the TSOs that post here, it is the TSA that is the white knight in shining armor saving us from Al Qaeda.


Argenbright did everything they were supposed to (according to what I have read) on 9/11. It is also one of the reasons that so many of the rules for TSA keep changing, and HQ incorporates "intentional inconsistency" in the way they do things. The bad guys knew the rules, circumvented them, and exploited the situation in a spectacular fashion from their point of view. The inconsistencies are built into the system to help provide less of a chance for someone to know what they can get away with. I personally am not a huge fan of that system, but there is some merit in that thought process. It can disrupt many things that are planned out by simply foiling one aspect of the plan. On the downside, it makes it a logistical nightmare for passengers trying to figure out what they can and can't take with them, and it is a constant PR bash for TSA because of that.
And the reason Argenbright couldn't have been given new rules to implement by the federal government instead of creating a big agency is out of whole cloth is....?

Global_Hi_Flyer Sep 18, 2010 5:39 pm


Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14696386)
over $6.2 million was spent simply on maintenance of the equipment - that is a simple choice based on the math. I believe the major concerns with the machinery were dirt/dust/gunk in the sensor inputs, and humidity. So far, those do not seem to have generated the same set of challenges for the AIT.

So what happens when the much more complicated strip-search machines require heavy maintenance? Or the automatic radiation limiting devices fail (with no alert) and folks start ending up looking like Wile E. Coyote after his Acme box explodes?

Seems to me the puffers worked when first installed.

mozgytog Sep 18, 2010 7:07 pm


Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer (Post 14699070)
So what happens when the much more complicated strip-search machines require heavy maintenance? Or the automatic radiation limiting devices fail (with no alert) and folks start ending up looking like Wile E. Coyote after his Acme box explodes?

Seems to me the puffers worked when first installed.

But gsoltso said that they only need rudimentary maintenance. Which I guess is proof positive that gsoltso has absolutely no idea how complicated the workings of such machines are, and how exceptionally difficult they can be to maintain and fix when a component fails. Devices that use active radiation are so simple to work on that any unskilled laborer with a wrench can do it.

Rest assured, you have a front line screener's word for it that the backscatter X-ray machine requires only 'rudimentary' maintenance.

Scubatooth Sep 18, 2010 9:00 pm


Originally Posted by mozgytog (Post 14700002)
Rest assured, you have a front line screener's word for it that the backscatter X-ray machine requires only 'rudimentary' maintenance.


Its a simple case of horribly misplaced blind trust, with a heavy dose of koolaid. I work in the health-care field and even i know that equipment fails even with the best safeguards and maintenance, but then again all of our equipment is certified and tested annually and those records are available without question on-site in the supervisors office, or online. Not only are these devices a massive invasion of privacy that way over steps the boundaries of a administrative search, i cant wait until the inevitable cases of radiation poisoning or skin cancer by either a FF or a government employee. If my experience with Workman's Compensation for job related injuries/exposures is any guide they will die from cancer long before ever getting any treatment, while the FF would get treated quickly on there own insurance and then go after TSA in a lawsuit with plenty of padding in the numbers for damages.

Considering the history of TSA, the reports of whose sticky fingers are all over these machines, "study's on them" and the fact that i dont trust any of them as far as I can put a round down range. I will never step into one of these, and if forced into one not only will there be a government employee going to jail for a series of charges, but TSA will find one of there porno-visions in kit rapid disassembled form from the panic attack induced by assault and battery of a government employee.

birdstrike Sep 18, 2010 9:12 pm


Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14693116)
My Jedi powers far exceed yours, so be careful how you tread in that arena.:rolleyes:

You'll never get me to come to the Dark Side. Never! :p

mozgytog Sep 19, 2010 5:54 am


Originally Posted by Scubatooth (Post 14701207)
Its a simple case of horribly misplaced blind trust, with a heavy dose of koolaid. I work in the health-care field and even i know that equipment fails even with the best safeguards and maintenance, but then again all of our equipment is certified and tested annually and those records are available without question on-site in the supervisors office, or online.

I actually agree with you, I just wasn't clear enough in my sarcasm. I understand a lot of the complexity of these things, and the differences in the regulation, maintenance and testing of them from actual medical devices very well because of what I do for a living.

You won't see me in one of those machines.

N965VJ Sep 19, 2010 8:09 am


Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14696386)
You are kidding right? Tom was a deputy administrator with TSA for about 2 years. I would be willing to bet he has had some pretty good insight and information on screening processes.

Tom Blank is a lobbyist. Show me where in his experience that he has the credentials to be an expert in security. When he was Newt Gingrich's Communications Director did he learn a secret handshake or something?

Flaflyer Sep 19, 2010 10:14 am


Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14696186)
Correct, I said checkpoint. In some cases where screening is conducted airside at the gates and in those areas, I guess a case could be made that we are the last line of security before you get on the plane, but that is not a completely true statement. Each individual person is their own last line of defense if you look at it literally

The TSA security layer cake originally had 19 Layers of Security™. According to a certain semi reliable government source there are now 21 Layers of Security™. (Oops, gotta update my sig.) This was caused by the addition of two new Layers, the TDC Force with their Secret Decoder Black Lights, and the Jedi mind reading talents of the BDO Forces. As always, the last layer is called "Passengers."

As Flight 93 demonstrated, this is the one Layer the TSA has listed in the correct place. Incidents from the Shoe to the Underwear wannabe bombers shows that Layer 21 is alert and effective and has found and stopped more terrorists than all the TSOs combined, for $5 billion per year less tax dollars.

FliesWay2Much Sep 19, 2010 1:23 pm


Originally Posted by Flaflyer (Post 14706650)
The TSA security layer cake originally had 19 Layers of Security™. According to a certain semi reliable government source there are now 21 Layers of Security™. (Oops, gotta update my sig.) This was caused by the addition of two new Layers, the TDC Force with their Secret Decoder Black Lights, and the Jedi mind reading talents of the BDO Forces. As always, the last layer is called "Passengers."

As Flight 93 demonstrated, this is the one Layer the TSA has listed in the correct place. Incidents from the Shoe to the Underwear wannabe bombers shows that Layer 21 is alert and effective and has found and stopped more terrorists than all the TSOs combined, for $5 billion per year less tax dollars.

When you think about it, we all pay for the privilege of being Kippie's Layer #21.

DevilDog438 Sep 19, 2010 1:25 pm


Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much (Post 14709350)
When you think about it, we all pay for the privilege of being Kippie's Layer #21.

Personally, I think the ROI on that layer beats all of the other layers, combined.

gsoltso Sep 23, 2010 7:51 am


Originally Posted by Scubatooth (Post 14696531)
Intentional Inconsistancy = Is nothing more then a nice PC was of saying "We dont have nor could buy a clue" and is a excuse for the extremely poor training and attitudes that travelers see of TSA.

As for your jedi powers, that is a laugh riot and is worse than the BDO BS that TSA claims is legit, but others say is BS. Those calling BS actually have degrees in Behavior science and Psychology, where most TSA employees (the ones i have run into around the country) there education is highly suspect at best based off there attitude, language and behavior i have encountered.

Actually the system was developed to include the inconsistencies. I have already said I dislike the system, but there is some merit to the thought process. It makes it more difficult for everyone to get through, thus increasing the likelihood that bad guys will get caught or have a key component found. I just dislike the tradeoff it costs us with the passengers. As for education - I will say it again, a degree means nothing other than you were able to sit in school for long enough, pass enough classes and pay the money. Some of the smartest people I have ever known never got past the third grade and had a hard enough time reading that they asked me to read the newspaper to him, but he could tell you more about the way people act and think than Freud. Education is a good starting spot, but being smart is a much better measuring stick.


Originally Posted by PhoenixRev (Post 14698956)
We have TSOs that have brazenly posted on these forums that they are they are the last line of defense between the traveling public and their departing flight. You can try to soften it anyway you can, but the fact remains that type of arrogance is unacceptable.



Which still begs the question of why any TSO would make such an unsubstantiated and unprovable statement. I am curious to know if you are willing to call your fellow TSOs out the next time they make such a ridiculous and unfounded statement.



That's all well and good, but it still glosses over the ridiculousness of a statement proclaiming that the TSA is responsible for preventing another 9/11. The TSA did not make airlines put in reinforced cockpit doors and the TSA did not change the stupid policy of always giving in to hijackers demands. But from the tone of the some of the TSOs that post here, it is the TSA that is the white knight in shining armor saving us from Al Qaeda.



And the reason Argenbright couldn't have been given new rules to implement by the federal government instead of creating a big agency is out of whole cloth is....?

I disagree with the chest thumping that some folks do, we are not the last line of defense (if you look at it literally). I liken our role to being the front end of the system, the most visible and largest component of the system - but not the last line of defense.

I call out many people that do things that are wrong. However, each person has their own opinion regardless of whether I think they are wrong or not. Having the opinion that you are here to prevent another 9/11 is just that - their opinion. In a way, they are trying to help prevent something like that, but the liklihood of a 9/11 style event taking place is much lower now than it was before.

We are not a white knight, we are security at the airports and some other transportation locations... Sometimes our employees save a life here and there, I guess we could designate those folks white knights.

I can not comment on the reasons the agency was started, it happened at a level way above my paygrade.


Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer (Post 14699070)
So what happens when the much more complicated strip-search machines require heavy maintenance? Or the automatic radiation limiting devices fail (with no alert) and folks start ending up looking like Wile E. Coyote after his Acme box explodes?

Seems to me the puffers worked when first installed.

There was much more testing done with the AIT than with the puffer prior to rolling them out. From a user perspective, the costs and maintenance for the AIT is much less than the costs related to maintenance on the puffers.


Originally Posted by mozgytog (Post 14700002)
But gsoltso said that they only need rudimentary maintenance. Which I guess is proof positive that gsoltso has absolutely no idea how complicated the workings of such machines are, and how exceptionally difficult they can be to maintain and fix when a component fails. Devices that use active radiation are so simple to work on that any unskilled laborer with a wrench can do it.

Rest assured, you have a front line screener's word for it that the backscatter X-ray machine requires only 'rudimentary' maintenance.

Read the previous comment. The service techs are the only ones doing repairs, and routine user maintenance is much simpler for this machine than for the puffers. Adding words to what I say, does not mean they came from me - nice try though.


Originally Posted by N965VJ (Post 14705425)
Tom Blank is a lobbyist. Show me where in his experience that he has the credentials to be an expert in security. When he was Newt Gingrich's Communications Director did he learn a secret handshake or something?

I think lasting 2 years at the upper end of TSAs ladder would count as something that helps him at this point. As for before, a lot of agencies put "people managers" in the system to help balance the system and teach others that just because something is a security plus, does not mean you can sell it to the public or congress. Many of the people in the upper reaches have never had security experience prior to coming here - you have to have both sides of the coin or you will never get anything right - ever.

N965VJ Sep 23, 2010 8:14 am


Originally Posted by gsoltso (Post 14761625)
I think lasting 2 years at the upper end of TSAs ladder would count as something that helps him at this point.

The same revolving door that screeners go through after finding that there are more lucrative opportunities elsewhere? :p If he truly wanted to see effective security equipment being used, he would be advocating the use of ETP/ETD since that technology actually finds explosives. Instead, he, his firm, the Chertoff Group, etc. have decided to chase after the money trail of the Nude-O-Scopes.

You do remember Chertoff saying how great the Nude-O-Scopes were, then being busted when it was revealed he had a financial interest in their acquisition, don't you?

polonius Sep 23, 2010 2:21 pm


Originally Posted by birdstrike (Post 14688202)
It's not an either/or. Just go back to pre-9/11 screening.

Or no screening at all. BB, Skeltor, and Hawley have all failed to provide any response to my question about how it is that we, as a society, can casually accept a million annual deaths from automobiles without feeling the need to impose draconian restrictions on cars and drivers, or multiple millions of annual deaths from heart disease without feeling compelled to shut down McDonalds and KFC, yet we are expected to accept as rational the decision to systematically deprive citizens of fundamental rights and liberties in response to the few dozen annual deaths caused by terrorism.


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