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-   -   IAH TSA: Interrogating A Child? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/1086782-iah-tsa-interrogating-child.html)

elgringito May 19, 2010 3:59 pm


Originally Posted by doober (Post 13987654)
You just don't get it, do you?

And you do? The article from the National Middle School Association below says there are 2,400 reported cases of child abuse each day. Can you not even conceive of the possibility the TSA representative was simply acting in good faith? The inability to even conceive a TSA representative acted in good faith is an idication of one's ability to "... get it ..." by my standards.

http://www.nmsa.org/Publications/Mid...6/Default.aspx


In fact, approximately 2,400 children are found to be victims of child abuse each day, and each week Child Protective Services (CPS) agencies throughout the United States receive more than 50,000 reports of suspected child abuse or neglect (Prevent Child Abuse America, 2003).

RockyBalboa May 19, 2010 4:02 pm

gringito,

My sister exhibited no signs of child abuse. There was nothing out of the ordinary. Unless you call crying out of the ordinary.

You mentioned that in your 40yrs of traveling that you've rarely run across crying children in an aiport; that is hard to believe. I see them not only in airports but in malls and other public places a lot.

I gave her a hug before they walked up to the counter. She started to cry, for the most part silently and just kept wiping her eyes. After I left they checked their luggage and went through the TSA line and that's where they were stopped and pulled aside.

I grew up as a military brat and that meant a lot of summer trips home and then leaving the whole family to come back to wherever we were stationed. That led to a lot of tears on my part until I was about 12. I hated leaving my family. There's nothing wrong with that.

PTravel May 19, 2010 4:03 pm


Originally Posted by elgringito (Post 13987564)
Please assist me by providing a reference that states the limitations on the role of the TSA representatives - I not only have not been able to find such references but believe the references I have documented in fact do not indicate such limitations. Your simply repeating yourself in my estimation adds little validity to your statement(s).

The "references" you have documented are meaningless propaganda from TSA and have no legal significance whatsoever.

We'll start here:


(a) Definition.— In this section, “law enforcement personnel” means individuals—
(1) authorized to carry and use firearms;
(2) vested with the degree of the police power of arrest the Under Secretary of Transportation for Security considers necessary to carry out this section; and
(3) identifiable by appropriate indicia of authority.
49 U.S.C. § 44903

Next, we'll go here:


Under the Fourth Amendment, searches “conducted without a warrant issued upon probable cause [are] per se unreasonable . . . subject only to a few specifically established and well-delineated exceptions.” Schneckloth v. Bustamonte, 412 U.S. 218, 219 (1973) (internal quotation marks omitted); see also Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347, 357 (1967). The Government bears the burden of proving that a warrantless search was conducted pursuant to an established exception to the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement. United States v. Oliver, 686 F.2d 356, 371 (6th Cir. 1982). Administrative searches are an exception to the warrant requirement and are permissible if they “meet the Fourth Amendment’s standard of reasonableness.” United States v. Davis, 482 F.2d 893, 910 (9th Cir. 1973), overruled on other grounds by United States v. Aukai, 497 F.3d 955, 960-61 (9th Cir. 2007) (en banc); see also Board of Educ. of Indep. Sch. Dist. No. 92 of Pottawatomie Cty. v. Earls, 536 U.S. 822, 828-29 (2002) (noting that reasonableness is “the touchstone of the constitutionality of a governmental
search”); Camara v. Mun. Court, 387 U.S. 523, 536-537 (1967). Warrantless and suspicionless airport screening searches are administrative searches and,
therefore, exempt from the warrant requirement and constitutionally permissible if they are reasonable .2 See., e.g., United States v. Dalpiaz, 494 F.2d 374, 375 (6th Cir. 1974); Aukai, 497 2 The Supreme Court has not directly ruled on the reasonableness of domestic airport checkpoint
searches. F.3d at 958; United States v. Hartwell, 436 F.3d 174, 178 (3d Cir. 2006). This is so because they are conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme to prevent passengers from carrying weapons or explosives onto airplanes rather than as part of a criminal investigation to obtain evidence of criminal activity. Aukai, 497 F.3d at 960; Dalpiaz, 494 F.2d at 375.

To determine the reasonableness of an administrative airport search, the Court must balance an individual’s right to be free of intrusion with “society’s interest in safe air travel.” United States v. Marquez, 410 F.3d 612, 616 (9th Cir. 2005) (quoting United States v. Pulido- Baquerizo, 800 F.2d 899, 901 (9th Cir. 1986)). Therefore, an airport security search is reasonable if: (1) the search is “no more extensive or intensive than necessary, in light of current
technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives;” (2) the search “is confined in good faith to that purpose;” and (3) a potential passenger may avoid the search by choosing not to fly. Aukai, 497 F.3d at 962. The mere fact that contraband other than weapons or explosives is found during an airport screening search, however, does not itself render the search unconstitutional.
Marquez, 410 F.3d at 616. The TSA is statutorily charged with developing and executing airport screening search procedures. 49 U.S.C. § 44901(a). More generally, the TSA is responsible for creating “regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft . . . against an act of criminal
violence or aircraft piracy.” 49 U.S.C. § 44903(b). Under 49 C.F.R. § 1540.111(a), individuals may not carry a “weapon, explosive, or incendiary” onto an airplane. Section 49 U.S.C.§ 44902(a) requires that the TSA prohibit commercial airlines from transporting “a passenger who does not consent to a search under section 44901(a) of this title establishing whether the
passenger is carrying unlawfully a dangerous weapon, explosive, or other destructive substance.”
United States v. Fofana

And finally:


(b) Protection Against Violence and Piracy.— The Under Secretary shall prescribe regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy. When prescribing a regulation under this subsection, the Under Secretary shall—
(1) consult with the Secretary of Transportation, the Attorney General, the heads of other departments, agencies, and instrumentalities of the United States Government, and State and local authorities;
(2) consider whether a proposed regulation is consistent with—
(A) protecting passengers; and
(B) the public interest in promoting air transportation and intrastate air transportation;[/quote

49 U.S.C. § 44903

The sole function of TSA is to, "to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy," which is the administrative search is limited to this function AND TSOs are not, by definition, law enforcement officers.



TSO's may second guess often, my comment if you reread it, was that I cannot imagine a TSA representative subjecting THEMSELVES to the second guessing that would result for stopping and question a child over a few tears.
Whereas I can. In fact, it has happened -- the OP reported it. Are you suggesting that she is lying?


A citizen or TSA agent has at least a moral responsibility to report a suspected act of kidnapping or abuse.
A goverment actor, i.e. a TSO, has a legal, moral and ethical obligation to comply with the constitutional limitations on the power of the government.


It's done with regularity. See also below

http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...e-neglect.html
So what? What has that to do with TSOs exercising police powers that are expressly denied to them at law? Are you saying, violating the law and Constitution are okay if, "it's for the children?" That's pure BS and if you really think so, you need a civics refresher course.


As previously referenced, there are in fact laws protecting those who intervene in good faith where abuse or kidnapping is suspected, you might have missed this so I'll repeat it below.

http://www.nmsa.org/Publications/Mid...6/Default.aspx

Wrong. These laws apply to teachers. Teachers are professionals who are trained to recognize the signs of child abuse. They are also assigned this responsibility by statute. TSOs are not professionals who are trained to recognize the signs of child abuse, and they are NOT assigned this responsibility by statute. And they are not indemnified in the event of good faith intervention.

elgringito May 19, 2010 4:03 pm


Originally Posted by jkhuggins (Post 13987879)
Sure, I believe it's possible. I've read plenty of examples here of TSA representatives exceeding their authority, trying to score the "big find". Read about the Fofana case. Read about the Bierfieldt case.

"Oh please" to quote you, making an 11 year old the pawn? In a public arena with the parent / guardian present? You must really hate the TSA.

RockyBalboa May 19, 2010 4:04 pm


Originally Posted by elgringito (Post 13987914)
And you do? The article from the National Middle School Association below says there are 2,400 reported cases of child abuse each day. Can you not even conceive of the possibility the TSA representative was simply acting in good faith? The inability to even conceive a TSA representative acted in good faith is an idication of one's ability to "... get it ..." by my standards.

http://www.nmsa.org/Publications/Mid...6/Default.aspx


You're driving this abuse angle hard. Again, if there were signs of abuse then I would agree with you.

But simply crying is not a sign of abuse.

Ari May 19, 2010 4:04 pm


Originally Posted by elgringito (Post 13987564)
Please assist me by providing a reference that states the limitations on the role of the TSA representatives - I not only have not been able to find such references but believe the references I have documented in fact do not indicate such limitations. Your simply repeating yourself in my estimation adds little validity to your statement(s).

For the umpteenth time, Fofana, a court decision. Read it.

N965VJ May 19, 2010 4:06 pm


Originally Posted by elgringito (Post 13987914)
And you do? The article from the National Middle School Association below says there are 2,400 reported cases of child abuse each day.

If a TSO suspects child abuse, they should contact a LEO. They have no authority to do anything else. Same goes if they find what appears to be illegal drugs while conducting an administrative search. Even the TSA employees on this forum agree on this.

jkhuggins May 19, 2010 4:11 pm


Originally Posted by elgringito (Post 13987941)
"Oh please" to quote you, making an 11 year old the pawn? In a public arena with the parent / guardian present? You must really hate the TSA.

If you'd spend any time reading my remarks on this forum, you'll find that I both defend and criticize TSA. I'm not a blind critic, or a blind defender.

And I've read about TSOs doing much worse. Shall we talk about the (former) TSO in PHL who decided back in January that planting drugs in a passenger's carry-on was "funny"? Shall we talk about the TSO who stole money from a passenger in a wheelchair, who was powerless to stop it, and then tried to cover it up later? Shall we talk about the TSO who confiscated the two-inch toy gun from a child's GI Joe toy as a "dangerous weapon"?

So, is the OP's scenario plausible? Absolutely. Common practice? I would hope not. But, as a rule, I don't rule anything out.

doober May 19, 2010 4:14 pm


Originally Posted by RockyBalboa (Post 13987947)
You're driving this abuse angle hard.

I thought so also. Must be some kind of a reason for it.

elgringito May 19, 2010 4:28 pm


Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 13987937)
Wrong. These laws apply to teachers. Teachers are professionals who are trained to recognize the signs of child abuse. They are also assigned this responsibility by statute. TSOs are not professionals who are trained to recognize the signs of child abuse, and they are NOT assigned this responsibility by statute. And they are not indemnified in the event of good faith intervention.

Dealing first with your last paragraph in your post, are you stating the American Humane organization is "wrong" as quoted below?

http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...e-neglect.html


In most states, professionals who work with children in any capacity are identified as “mandated reporters” and are required by law to report suspected child abuse or neglect. Approximately 18 states define mandated reporters more broadly to include any citizen who suspects that a child is being abused or neglected.
Quoting from the information you quote in your post, the below certainly does not seem to this individual to support your statements about limitations, most notably what I have bolded. Child abuse is a criminal act is it not and transporting an abducted child is also a criminal act is it not?


The Supreme Court has not directly ruled on the reasonableness of domestic airport checkpoint searches. F.3d at 958; United States v. Hartwell, 436 F.3d 174, 178 (3d Cir. 2006). This is so because they are conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme to prevent passengers from carrying weapons or explosives onto airplanes rather than as part of a criminal investigation to obtain evidence of criminal activity.

The mere fact that contraband other than weapons or explosives is found during an airport screening search, however, does not itself render the search unconstitutional.

More generally, the TSA is responsible for creating “regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft . . . against an act of criminal
violence
or aircraft piracy.”

The sole function of TSA is to, "to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy," which is the administrative search is limited to this function AND TSOs are not, by definition, law enforcement officers.

Protection Against Violence and Piracy.— The Under Secretary shall prescribe regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence

PTravel May 19, 2010 4:37 pm


Originally Posted by elgringito (Post 13988096)
Dealing first with your last paragraph in your post, are you stating the American Humane organization is "wrong" as quoted below?

http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...e-neglect.html

I am stating that the American Humane organization's opinion is irrelevant to the law.


Quoting from the information you quote in your post, the below certainly does not seem to this individual to support your statements about limitations, most notably what I have bolded. Child abuse is a criminal act is it not and transporting an abducted child is also a criminal act is it not?
First of all, the statute doesn't say, "criminal act," it says, "More generally, the TSA is responsible for creating “regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft . . . against an act of criminal
violence or aircraft piracy
.”"

I have no intention of giving you a lesson in Statutory Construction 101 -- frankly, I should charge you for my time to do the minimal research that I did. I couldn't care less what the meaning of the statute is to you. It means what I said it means. Your opinion of its meaning is that of an uninformed layman and therefore irrelevant.

I see you also have conveniently ignored the other material that I provided that clearly defines the limited scope of non-police authority afforded to TSOs. I don't know what your deal is -- whether you are a TSO, or just one of those, "anything for the children," people -- but you are simply wrong.

elgringito May 19, 2010 4:41 pm


Originally Posted by Ari (Post 13987948)
For the umpteenth time, Fofana, a court decision. Read it.

The evidence obtained by search procedures that exceeded normal procedures to protect protection of passengers from criminal activities was suppressed. And this has relevance to a TSA agent being concerned with the safety of an 11 year old child - how?


Originally Posted by doober (Post 13988025)
I thought so also. Must be some kind of a reason for it.

The reason is simple - I deplore child abuse, which is really not a difficult concept to comprehend I would think.


Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 13988135)
I am stating that the American Humane organization's opinion is irrelevant to the law.

First of all, the statute doesn't say, "criminal act," it says, "More generally, the TSA is responsible for creating “regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft . . . against an act of criminal
violence or aircraft piracy
.”"

I have no intention of giving you a lesson in Statutory Construction 101 -- frankly, I should charge you for my time to do the minimal research that I did. I couldn't care less what the meaning of the statute is to you. It means what I said it means. Your opinion of its meaning is that of an uninformed layman and therefore irrelevant.

I see you also have conveniently ignored the other material that I provided that clearly defines the limited scope of non-police authority afforded to TSOs. I don't know what your deal is -- whether you are a TSO, or just one of those, "anything for the children," people -- but you are simply wrong.

Then you are stating they are wrong in their statement:


Approximately 18 states define mandated reporters more broadly to include any citizen who suspects that a child is being abused or neglected.
You are also stating persons acting in good faith on suspected child abuse are exceeded their legally justifiable acts - if you are, I strongly suspect you are the one who is wrong.

For the record, I am not an employee of any government agency.

PTravel May 19, 2010 4:54 pm


Originally Posted by elgringito (Post 13988152)
The evidence obtained by search procedures that exceeded normal procedures to protect protection of passengers from criminal activities was suppressed.

Wrong! Evidence seized by the TSO exceeding the Constitutional limits of the narrowly-defined administrative search was suppressed. That's because the TSO lacked the legal authority to intrude on Fourth Amendment rights beyond the minimally intrusive but otherwise necessary ambit of preventing weapons, explosives and incendiaries into the sterile area. If you're going to act like a lawyer, you're going to need to go to law school. You clearly do not understand the holding in Fofana, or its significance. Did you read the opinion or just some 1 paragraph summary somewhere?


And this has relevance to a TSA agent being concerned with the safety of an 11 year old child - how?
It is not about a TSA agent "being concerned with the safety of an 11 year old child." The TSA agent can express that concern, as can any other citizen, by summoning a LEO. It is about a TSA agent illegally exercising control over the child without obtaining consent, and contrary to the wishes, of the mother. This is a constitutional issue -- the Fourth Amendment precludes government interference with, inter alia, liberty, except under very, very specific circumstances. Both the case law and the enabling statute for TSA make it very clear that this is not one of them.

As I said, don't play lawyer. You're in way over your head.


Originally Posted by elgringito (Post 13988188)
Then you are stating they are wrong in their statement:

I am stating that I couldn't care less what the Humane Society has to say about law.


You are also stating persons acting in good faith on suspected child abuse are exceeded their legally justifiable acts - if you are, I strongly suspect you are the one who is wrong.
First of all, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that neither TSOs, nor anyone else other than a LEO, have the legal authority to separate a child from its parent. Try to keep up, here. I'm saying that, by doing what the OP described, the TSOs in question were acting in violation of the law. So, care to make a little wager as to whether I'm wrong about that?


For the record, I am not an employee of any government agency.
So what do you do that makes you such an expert on the law?

AngryMiller May 19, 2010 5:04 pm

If I were a TSO in that situation I would have summoned a LEO to deal with it because it interfered with my primary job function of keeping WEI off of the aircraft and out of the sterile area.

N965VJ May 19, 2010 5:11 pm


Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 13988135)
I have no intention of giving you a lesson in Statutory Construction 101 -- frankly, I should charge you for my time to do the minimal research that I did.

Just think of all the billable hours you could rack up straightening out the armchair lawyers that stayed in a Holiday Inn last night. :D



Originally Posted by AngryMiller (Post 13988278)
If I were a TSO in that situation I would have summoned a LEO to deal with it because it interfered with my primary job function of keeping WEI off of the aircraft and out of the sterile area.

Bingo! In this instance we had 4 TSOs that were distracted from their screening duties. Is it any wonder we have so many things get past them that lead to terminal dumps, recalled aircraft, etc?


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