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Originally Posted by doober
(Post 13987654)
You just don't get it, do you?
http://www.nmsa.org/Publications/Mid...6/Default.aspx In fact, approximately 2,400 children are found to be victims of child abuse each day, and each week Child Protective Services (CPS) agencies throughout the United States receive more than 50,000 reports of suspected child abuse or neglect (Prevent Child Abuse America, 2003). |
gringito,
My sister exhibited no signs of child abuse. There was nothing out of the ordinary. Unless you call crying out of the ordinary. You mentioned that in your 40yrs of traveling that you've rarely run across crying children in an aiport; that is hard to believe. I see them not only in airports but in malls and other public places a lot. I gave her a hug before they walked up to the counter. She started to cry, for the most part silently and just kept wiping her eyes. After I left they checked their luggage and went through the TSA line and that's where they were stopped and pulled aside. I grew up as a military brat and that meant a lot of summer trips home and then leaving the whole family to come back to wherever we were stationed. That led to a lot of tears on my part until I was about 12. I hated leaving my family. There's nothing wrong with that. |
Originally Posted by elgringito
(Post 13987564)
Please assist me by providing a reference that states the limitations on the role of the TSA representatives - I not only have not been able to find such references but believe the references I have documented in fact do not indicate such limitations. Your simply repeating yourself in my estimation adds little validity to your statement(s).
We'll start here: (a) Definition.— In this section, “law enforcement personnel” means individuals— (1) authorized to carry and use firearms; (2) vested with the degree of the police power of arrest the Under Secretary of Transportation for Security considers necessary to carry out this section; and (3) identifiable by appropriate indicia of authority. Next, we'll go here: Under the Fourth Amendment, searches “conducted without a warrant issued upon probable cause [are] per se unreasonable . . . subject only to a few specifically established and well-delineated exceptions.” Schneckloth v. Bustamonte, 412 U.S. 218, 219 (1973) (internal quotation marks omitted); see also Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347, 357 (1967). The Government bears the burden of proving that a warrantless search was conducted pursuant to an established exception to the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement. United States v. Oliver, 686 F.2d 356, 371 (6th Cir. 1982). Administrative searches are an exception to the warrant requirement and are permissible if they “meet the Fourth Amendment’s standard of reasonableness.” United States v. Davis, 482 F.2d 893, 910 (9th Cir. 1973), overruled on other grounds by United States v. Aukai, 497 F.3d 955, 960-61 (9th Cir. 2007) (en banc); see also Board of Educ. of Indep. Sch. Dist. No. 92 of Pottawatomie Cty. v. Earls, 536 U.S. 822, 828-29 (2002) (noting that reasonableness is “the touchstone of the constitutionality of a governmental search”); Camara v. Mun. Court, 387 U.S. 523, 536-537 (1967). Warrantless and suspicionless airport screening searches are administrative searches and, therefore, exempt from the warrant requirement and constitutionally permissible if they are reasonable .2 See., e.g., United States v. Dalpiaz, 494 F.2d 374, 375 (6th Cir. 1974); Aukai, 497 2 The Supreme Court has not directly ruled on the reasonableness of domestic airport checkpoint searches. F.3d at 958; United States v. Hartwell, 436 F.3d 174, 178 (3d Cir. 2006). This is so because they are conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme to prevent passengers from carrying weapons or explosives onto airplanes rather than as part of a criminal investigation to obtain evidence of criminal activity. Aukai, 497 F.3d at 960; Dalpiaz, 494 F.2d at 375. To determine the reasonableness of an administrative airport search, the Court must balance an individual’s right to be free of intrusion with “society’s interest in safe air travel.” United States v. Marquez, 410 F.3d 612, 616 (9th Cir. 2005) (quoting United States v. Pulido- Baquerizo, 800 F.2d 899, 901 (9th Cir. 1986)). Therefore, an airport security search is reasonable if: (1) the search is “no more extensive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect the presence of weapons or explosives;” (2) the search “is confined in good faith to that purpose;” and (3) a potential passenger may avoid the search by choosing not to fly. Aukai, 497 F.3d at 962. The mere fact that contraband other than weapons or explosives is found during an airport screening search, however, does not itself render the search unconstitutional. Marquez, 410 F.3d at 616. The TSA is statutorily charged with developing and executing airport screening search procedures. 49 U.S.C. § 44901(a). More generally, the TSA is responsible for creating “regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft . . . against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy.” 49 U.S.C. § 44903(b). Under 49 C.F.R. § 1540.111(a), individuals may not carry a “weapon, explosive, or incendiary” onto an airplane. Section 49 U.S.C.§ 44902(a) requires that the TSA prohibit commercial airlines from transporting “a passenger who does not consent to a search under section 44901(a) of this title establishing whether the passenger is carrying unlawfully a dangerous weapon, explosive, or other destructive substance.” And finally: (b) Protection Against Violence and Piracy.— The Under Secretary shall prescribe regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy. When prescribing a regulation under this subsection, the Under Secretary shall— (1) consult with the Secretary of Transportation, the Attorney General, the heads of other departments, agencies, and instrumentalities of the United States Government, and State and local authorities; (2) consider whether a proposed regulation is consistent with— (A) protecting passengers; and (B) the public interest in promoting air transportation and intrastate air transportation;[/quote 49 U.S.C. § 44903 The sole function of TSA is to, "to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy," which is the administrative search is limited to this function AND TSOs are not, by definition, law enforcement officers. TSO's may second guess often, my comment if you reread it, was that I cannot imagine a TSA representative subjecting THEMSELVES to the second guessing that would result for stopping and question a child over a few tears. A citizen or TSA agent has at least a moral responsibility to report a suspected act of kidnapping or abuse. As previously referenced, there are in fact laws protecting those who intervene in good faith where abuse or kidnapping is suspected, you might have missed this so I'll repeat it below. http://www.nmsa.org/Publications/Mid...6/Default.aspx |
Originally Posted by jkhuggins
(Post 13987879)
Sure, I believe it's possible. I've read plenty of examples here of TSA representatives exceeding their authority, trying to score the "big find". Read about the Fofana case. Read about the Bierfieldt case.
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Originally Posted by elgringito
(Post 13987914)
And you do? The article from the National Middle School Association below says there are 2,400 reported cases of child abuse each day. Can you not even conceive of the possibility the TSA representative was simply acting in good faith? The inability to even conceive a TSA representative acted in good faith is an idication of one's ability to "... get it ..." by my standards.
http://www.nmsa.org/Publications/Mid...6/Default.aspx You're driving this abuse angle hard. Again, if there were signs of abuse then I would agree with you. But simply crying is not a sign of abuse. |
Originally Posted by elgringito
(Post 13987564)
Please assist me by providing a reference that states the limitations on the role of the TSA representatives - I not only have not been able to find such references but believe the references I have documented in fact do not indicate such limitations. Your simply repeating yourself in my estimation adds little validity to your statement(s).
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Originally Posted by elgringito
(Post 13987914)
And you do? The article from the National Middle School Association below says there are 2,400 reported cases of child abuse each day.
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Originally Posted by elgringito
(Post 13987941)
"Oh please" to quote you, making an 11 year old the pawn? In a public arena with the parent / guardian present? You must really hate the TSA.
And I've read about TSOs doing much worse. Shall we talk about the (former) TSO in PHL who decided back in January that planting drugs in a passenger's carry-on was "funny"? Shall we talk about the TSO who stole money from a passenger in a wheelchair, who was powerless to stop it, and then tried to cover it up later? Shall we talk about the TSO who confiscated the two-inch toy gun from a child's GI Joe toy as a "dangerous weapon"? So, is the OP's scenario plausible? Absolutely. Common practice? I would hope not. But, as a rule, I don't rule anything out. |
Originally Posted by RockyBalboa
(Post 13987947)
You're driving this abuse angle hard.
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Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 13987937)
Wrong. These laws apply to teachers. Teachers are professionals who are trained to recognize the signs of child abuse. They are also assigned this responsibility by statute. TSOs are not professionals who are trained to recognize the signs of child abuse, and they are NOT assigned this responsibility by statute. And they are not indemnified in the event of good faith intervention.
http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...e-neglect.html In most states, professionals who work with children in any capacity are identified as “mandated reporters” and are required by law to report suspected child abuse or neglect. Approximately 18 states define mandated reporters more broadly to include any citizen who suspects that a child is being abused or neglected. The Supreme Court has not directly ruled on the reasonableness of domestic airport checkpoint searches. F.3d at 958; United States v. Hartwell, 436 F.3d 174, 178 (3d Cir. 2006). This is so because they are conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme to prevent passengers from carrying weapons or explosives onto airplanes rather than as part of a criminal investigation to obtain evidence of criminal activity. The mere fact that contraband other than weapons or explosives is found during an airport screening search, however, does not itself render the search unconstitutional. More generally, the TSA is responsible for creating “regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft . . . against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy.” The sole function of TSA is to, "to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy," which is the administrative search is limited to this function AND TSOs are not, by definition, law enforcement officers. Protection Against Violence and Piracy.— The Under Secretary shall prescribe regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft operating in air transportation or intrastate air transportation against an act of criminal violence |
Originally Posted by elgringito
(Post 13988096)
Dealing first with your last paragraph in your post, are you stating the American Humane organization is "wrong" as quoted below?
http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...e-neglect.html Quoting from the information you quote in your post, the below certainly does not seem to this individual to support your statements about limitations, most notably what I have bolded. Child abuse is a criminal act is it not and transporting an abducted child is also a criminal act is it not? violence or aircraft piracy.”" I have no intention of giving you a lesson in Statutory Construction 101 -- frankly, I should charge you for my time to do the minimal research that I did. I couldn't care less what the meaning of the statute is to you. It means what I said it means. Your opinion of its meaning is that of an uninformed layman and therefore irrelevant. I see you also have conveniently ignored the other material that I provided that clearly defines the limited scope of non-police authority afforded to TSOs. I don't know what your deal is -- whether you are a TSO, or just one of those, "anything for the children," people -- but you are simply wrong. |
Originally Posted by Ari
(Post 13987948)
For the umpteenth time, Fofana, a court decision. Read it.
Originally Posted by doober
(Post 13988025)
I thought so also. Must be some kind of a reason for it.
Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 13988135)
I am stating that the American Humane organization's opinion is irrelevant to the law.
First of all, the statute doesn't say, "criminal act," it says, "More generally, the TSA is responsible for creating “regulations to protect passengers and property on an aircraft . . . against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy.”" I have no intention of giving you a lesson in Statutory Construction 101 -- frankly, I should charge you for my time to do the minimal research that I did. I couldn't care less what the meaning of the statute is to you. It means what I said it means. Your opinion of its meaning is that of an uninformed layman and therefore irrelevant. I see you also have conveniently ignored the other material that I provided that clearly defines the limited scope of non-police authority afforded to TSOs. I don't know what your deal is -- whether you are a TSO, or just one of those, "anything for the children," people -- but you are simply wrong. Approximately 18 states define mandated reporters more broadly to include any citizen who suspects that a child is being abused or neglected. For the record, I am not an employee of any government agency. |
Originally Posted by elgringito
(Post 13988152)
The evidence obtained by search procedures that exceeded normal procedures to protect protection of passengers from criminal activities was suppressed.
And this has relevance to a TSA agent being concerned with the safety of an 11 year old child - how? As I said, don't play lawyer. You're in way over your head.
Originally Posted by elgringito
(Post 13988188)
Then you are stating they are wrong in their statement:
You are also stating persons acting in good faith on suspected child abuse are exceeded their legally justifiable acts - if you are, I strongly suspect you are the one who is wrong. For the record, I am not an employee of any government agency. |
If I were a TSO in that situation I would have summoned a LEO to deal with it because it interfered with my primary job function of keeping WEI off of the aircraft and out of the sterile area.
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Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 13988135)
I have no intention of giving you a lesson in Statutory Construction 101 -- frankly, I should charge you for my time to do the minimal research that I did.
Originally Posted by AngryMiller
(Post 13988278)
If I were a TSO in that situation I would have summoned a LEO to deal with it because it interfered with my primary job function of keeping WEI off of the aircraft and out of the sterile area.
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