Why the terrorists will always win with our current mentality
 

We've had a bad couple weeks when it comes to security. We saw the underwear bomber, the EWR terminal dump, putting more FAMs on planes is a race against time, etc.

We look at the knee jerk reactions we see in place. 1 hour no pee rules, nothing on the laps, etc, etc. All the CYA.

I think I understand why.

Only one real way to say this. If Mel Brooks only knew the sad commentary he was making about society 20 years into the future. Sad thing is, I thought this was funny as a kid, that good would never be this dumb. Apparently, it is.

http://de.motiv.me/wp-content/upload...od_is_dumb.jpg

Looking at the clip here (at about 1:20):

http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=1938

The bad guy does stupid tricks. The good guys fall for them. And who wins? Not the good guy. And of course, the bad guy is laughing his arse off.

I don't know ... it's just depressing seeing how clueless our government is, to watch them keep playing into these idiots' hands, and feeling practically powerless to stop it.

Super

But I thought Bush was the idiot and Obama was the bright one. Isn't that why this country celebrated like crazy when Obama was elected?

Lesson: don't expect much from your president. Any president.

Not to take this into Omni P/R territory, but both are idiots - just different kinds.

Years from now, when our grandchildren study history, TSA and the construction of the Maginot Line will be discussed as prime examples of governments looking backward instead of forward.

Terrorists win with the current mentality because we allow ourselves to be terrorized. I shudder to think what this country would do if it was faced with REAL terror, such as was faced by Britain circa 1940-45.

This nation survived 40-odd years with the very real prospect of a nuclear holocaust that would have caused an unimaginable level of death and destruction. Somehow, we managed to cope with that and to do so in a manner that, generally but not completely, did not gut our Constitution and basic values. Yet, when confronted with a handful of lunatic fanatics who lack the ability to destroy us, we seem hell-bent on destroying ourselves with a response that is completely out of proportion to the threat we face and, in the process, wreak a level of violence on our basic values that tens of thousands of Soviet nuclear warheads could not do.

At the beginning of the new Administration, I had hoped that we might finally find a calmer approach to dealing with terrorism that put it into a proper perspective as a risk to our lives. The response of the past few weeks would seem to indicate that my hope was misplaced. The hand-wringing and bed-wetting over terrorism continues, which is a sad state of affairs indeed.

Beautifully put!

+1, especially the final paragraph.

Part of the issue, and I'm not commenting on whether I think this is good or bad, is that there are so many more outlets for news now. The internet and widespread television have made talking heads, no matter how idiotic they were, widely available to scare the crap out of anyone. Media isn't about the news, it's about ratings, and he who scares the most people wins.

Mike

Which, in turn, is inevitable, given the unreliability of crystal balls. What we engage in when these things happen is also a syndrome; it's called "Monday morning quarterbacking."

Here's what really scares me: What happens when the terrorists decide, "We've had enough of airports. Instead, we're going to set off bombs in podunk towns in each of the 50 states, with a few extras thrown in at random. We're going to try and show you that we can hit you anywhere, at anytime, and that no one is safe." Mass panic, martial law and all of our worst tendencies would immediately come out. Fighting yesterday's war is going to get us nothing except probes at the airport.

Mike

It would sure be nice if we could have an agency that is proactive about these things instead of reactive. Makes you wonder if they've ever heard of a brainstorming session. Why can't they just get together and ask everyone, "If I was a bad guy, what would I do?"

Another part of the issue, I'm convinced, is the number of people who have a vested intersted in keeping things the way they are. Everybody from managers in the TSA whose salary is dependent upon their budget, security "experts" who write books, equipment manufacturers, contracted security companies, the news media selling their "scary time" ratings, to who knows, is benefiting from the "current mentality."

Those people will see no reason to change.

great point mike. real terror. bomb the mall down the street. hit the supermarket or, god forbid, a few schools. we would have to adjust our lives. if people in power would just admit, to the masses, that we cannot beat terrorism maybe we could move on with our lives. i can accept the fact that air travel cannot be 100% safe. i still like my chances and will take them. i do not let fear dictate. we have a society that demands answers even if there are none. our politicians love to string us along. some say it would be a bad political move to tell the truth. it would show a weakness. how much weaker can we be? hell you can now shut down an entire airport by just using the phone to call in a threat. from bombs to boxcutters the only real weapon the terrorist need is fear and every single american has some. we need to be a little more thick skinned and it is not in our nature.

how true. the mayor of ny says that the terror trial will cost the city over 200 million dollars next year and the same for every year after. ahh 200 million? are ya fvckin kidding me? lol. every year after? there is no other reason to drag something out that long EXCEPT that all the "boys" are getting rich.

Much like the whole industry built up around the War on Drugs (sm).

Only problem with that is ... none of us are bad guys. Guessing what someone else might do is not the same as knowing what they will do.

We're back to what Schneier (among others) has said: there's no substitute for good intelligence-gathering.

Once you have gathered the intelligence, you have to share it with the agencies that need it. Over and over this seems to be where the problem lies. The boys don't want to share. :td:

Maybe the pipes in the white house have special kool-aide piped in.

One way to not be scared it to consider the reasons it hasn't happened yet. Malvo was a good example of non-airport terror, so it isn't like the idea hasn't occurred to "them".

My take is that the "terrorists" are boogeymen. It hasn't happened yet because it isn't worth it to the people capable of doing it.

A real government won't do it because it is an act of war and it would turn out badly (see Iraq, Afghanistan...) Giving the bombs, cars, cash, training, support, and one-way tickets to a person capable enough to pull off the duplicity required would likely result in the agent going native while they wait for a good time to commit murder. As long as we're still the land of opportunity, a potential terrorist could do a whole lot better for himself and his family by working rather than blowing himself up.

Worrying too much about "What if?" gets you our professional paranoids at TSA. What we should focus on is "Why not?" Improving emergency preparedness, emergency response, intelligence, and investigation will be far more productive than chasing boogymen.

I think this white washes a lot of the 1950's and the general attitude towards communism, but the sentiment is correct even if the metaphor isn't.

Terror Math
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When the terrorists succeed in an attack, their is somberness, sadness, and reflection. When they fail, there is flailing, fear, and overreaction. We have lost do to the fact that our leaders (both parties media etc.) have no vested interest in actually protecting us. They survive and use to their advantage this state of fear.

I think a lot of non-airplane terror has occured and we just don't remember it. Remember Oklahoma city? remember the first WTC bombings? Not only was their significantly less knee jerk reaction, their is actually less memory too. Airplanes are effective as a target because people use them but infrequently, interact with new and unknown people in them, and have a relatively common fear of them in general.

EVERYONE HERE needs to re-examine how they are looking at the whole "Islamic terroist" problem.

WHAT IS IT YOU THINK YOU WANT?

Is it that you want "terrorist" incidents to stop and for flying to be "safe"?

The GOAL of Islam is to (one way or another) convert the world's people to Islam and Sharia law.

Would you be content if Islam and the terrorists conquered your nation and people and either brought everyone, muslims and "unbelievers" under Sharia law (or finally KILLED those who would not convert) IF THEY JUST USED PEACEFUL, POLITICAL, LEGAL AND NON-VIOLENT MEANS TO SEIZE POWER AND CONTROL OF YOU COUNTRY? (Massive immigration into a non-muslim nation, very high birth rate, high priority on converting population to Islam, emphasis on gettting Muslims into positions of political power and influence.

AS LONG AS IT WAS ACHIEVED LEGALLY AND PEACEFULLY, WOULD YOU SURRENDER TO Islamic rule, SHARIA LAW AND ISLAM AS THE ONLY OFFICIAL RELIGION?

Most (non-Islamic) people would say NO.

But that is EXACTLY what is happening. Your attention is drawn away to focus on "terrorists" while massive numbers of these people committed and supportive of this destructive ideology (unable to renounce Islam upon threat of death) are immigrating, have explosive birth rates, are changing the cultural norms in their new non-muslim countries, are inserting themselves into political and social positions of power and influence, are converting everyone they can to what most misunderstand as merely "another religion" and will sooner rather than later become strong enough politicallly to USE THE POLITICAL AND LEGAL PROCESSES OF FREE NATIONS AS WEAPONS AGAINST THAT FREE PEOPLE TO CONQUER THEM.

Remember if your democratic nation has a law and policy that "it doesn't matter which religion triumphs over the hearts and minds of our people" "all religions are equally respected" YOU ARE PRIME CANDIDATES AND TARGETS TO FALL TO BEING PEACEFULLY, LEGALLY, QUIETLY CONQUERED BY ISLAM. You defend no religion as "better" than another, so you cannot object to the triumph of Islam.

Once Islam rules, you should know the profoundly different way they regard women, gays, lesbians, children, animals and non-believers.

Beware of the DIVERSION that terrorism provides from our being more concerned and protecting ourselves from "peaceful Islam".

PC or not it must be said: Our real enemy is not a handful of religious extremists but is a certain destructive, intolerant, dangerous, violent religious ideology called Islam.

If you don't do SOMETHING about the quiet conquering of free people by Islam, YOU MIGHT AS WELL SURRENDER TO THE TERRORIST DEMANDS NOW AND AVOID THE RUSH. Then you would have your "safe flying", if that is your only goal.

Wow...that was patently offensive :rolleyes:

Islam is not attacking us. People are trying to attack us. Part of the problem is that not only has religious intolerance and hatred been tolerated because of the current climate of fear, but it has been encouraged.

Did you ever consider from 'their' point of view, Christianity is attacking 'them' and trying to force their ways on 'them'...of course not and your likely not capable of understanding the comparison.

Not only is your rant not PC, its not even close to correct.:td:

AINITFUNNY, I am not Islamic, but I do not believe it is right to condemn other people's beliefs nor do I believe that this forum is the place for hate speech.

I recently moved to Brussels, Beglium and regularly shop in stores that are mostly run, staffed, and frequented by Muslims. The store owners are always very nice to me and not one person has ever tried to 'convert' me to their faith nor handed me handy :rolleyes: information pamphlets on Islam.

I am somewhat surprised that this has not happened already to some degree.

How would it go over if Mall of America was hit, or a major Las Vegas casino?

There are very few "terrorists". They are mostly inept. Barely enough to keep our homegrown fearmongers alive.

Boggie Dog "Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party"? :rolleyes: @:-)

I think air travel has given them a good bang for their buck. Just threaten (don't actually have to succeed) and watch the vast majority of the western world cower in fear.

Mall of America attack would only affect the US. An air scare reaches its tentacles out into Europe etc. Not only that, it makes the US start dictating policy to other sovereign nations, thus furthering the image of it being the great Satan of the world.

Just some thoughts.

And yes, after watching all the hoopla on the news today, I still think good is dumb. :( :td:

And yet, 19 of them managed to take over four airliners and demoralize an entire nation followed by getting said nation to nearly shred its constitution in the name of security.

Meanwhile, their leader is safely tucked away somewhere plotting more ineptness.

Sounds like they accomplished their goal. Sad our government seems so intent on letting them win. :td:

we dont need terrorists to keep the fear wagon loaded. a high school kid walks into a school with a gun and we go off the deep end. we do exactly the same things. point fingers, call for resignations, demand justice. it takes very, very little to throw us off balance.

Note that defeating security isn't difficult, so they could succeed and still qualify as inept. Taking a machine gun and shooting people in line at a public event (large queue, university) doesn't require any modicum of intelligence, yet can lead to many deaths before special forces can intervene.

What destroyed American values/ethics/love for freedom was the US government/citizen, not the terrorists, because they never had the power to do that. They could only take down buildings and kill people, not change their values.

Don't go blaming the government. We (the people) are doing this to ourselves. Obama's reaction to this event (and Bush's before him) is primarily driven by the public reaction to these events. The public, partially driven the cable news outlets, are demanding these types of actions.

While I had hoped Obama would be the extremely rare leader who would think through the problem and fight the knee-jerk reactions of the public, it seems that there is only so far he is willing to go. His initial reaction of not interrupting his vacation was the right one, but unfortunately, the pressure became too much for him.

ROTFLMAO :D

Based on what? His 2 years as a back bencher in the Senate? His radical views partially hidden by the MSM? His community organizing experience? His ability to read a teleprompter? Lets face it, this guy is about the least qualified individual to EVER become POTUS. I laugh when I hear idiots like Chris Matthews talk about his tingly legs. Or hear the derisive comments about Sarah Palin who had more executive experience (and was "only" running for VP) than Obama, who was running for President. Don't be taken in by the all the ridiculous PR about this clown. "Leader" you say? He never led jack.

Over reaction on the part of gummint officials? Say it ain't so. We've allowed one or two individuals (shoe bomber and the knickers bomber) to drive our travel security, adversely effecting the lives of millions in the process. Do something people say. Nothing is something and sometimes nothing is the appropriate response to actions on the part of a few. Were we to do away with the shoe carnival, the war on LGA, multiple ID checks, etc. would we significantly have an adverse effect on airports security? No. TSA could devote 100% of their efforts to getting WEI off of aircraft and we would be better off for it.

Hope need not be based on anything. I hope the same thing every time we get a new president. Hope is not the same thing as expect. I have learned never to expect it from any of our elected leaders of either party. I won't respond to the political discussion as it is best left for Omni.

We are doing it to ourselves. However, Obama also had a chance to show some testicular fortitude and lead. He didn't. Instead, he chose to cower in fear of the terrorists.

America won't be strong unless its leaders are strong. If they can crouch in the corner and say don't be afraid because we're doing X, they can also lead and tell the public not to be afraid because we're giving Osama the finger and not going to let him change our way of life.

I agree. He's starting to look like a puppet to me though. :td:

As was stated in this thead or another one, it's not only the government (well it's mainly since it's supposed to lead, but in reality, noone does politics to lead, but to be elected again). It's because most people seem content with that. They are embracing the new state of mind with glee.

82% of them feel better because their ID card was checked... twice.

And it will continue to be too much for almost any leader because the truth is the American people are scared to death of terrorism. We can bemoan this all we want, but it is a fact and it will take long, slow, painful educational efforts to change it. Those of us who travel a lot, including internationally, simply have a very poor understanding of the average American- what some call the "Kettles." As long as we condescend to such folks, ridicule them, and ignore their concerns, those concerns will dominate as these folks outnumber the rest of us.

It is rational, though not particularly brave, for a political leader to seek to address the concerns of the citizens. I strongly favor an effort by government leaders and wise private individuals to try to educate rather than just respond.

Those in the relevant agencies live in daily fear that they will ignore, or diminish the importance of, some threat and mass casualties will result. If that were to happen, there are very few opinion leaders who would try to halt the ensuing witch hunt. In fact, even those of us who want an end to some of the sillier security procedures would probably join the chorus if enough casualties occurred.

It astounds me that the media continues to show those video clips with masked AQ "terrorists" doing nothing more than basic high school exercises on parallel bars, etc., along with some basic training-style gunplay. This must scare the daylights out of the average American, yet it depicts nothing accurate about modern terrorist training.

A serious, well-prepared terrorist group would have taken advantage of the economic plunge and mounted a coordinated attack on several malls and public places right when things were at their nadir. If that had happened, we'd all be still in a devastating economic scenario.

It is time for education as to what the threat really is and maybe to explain to people that reasonable security measures will sometimes fail in the same way that stadiums sometimes collapse, earthquakes happen, etc.

Amen.

I'd like to see the "terrorists" downgraded, and dismissed to what they truly are; criminals, sociopaths, and thugs, hiding behind some perversion of religion. Once the air is out of their tires, they are going to have a much more difficult walk back to the world stage.