SteelCityBoy

Hi all

Wanted to run this by everyone to get your thoughts on it...

Me and Mrs SCB came back last night via FR from PMI en route to LPL. Mrs SCB is Canadian with Indefinite Leave to Remain (i.e. Permenant Residency) in the UK, I am British. Accordingly, we had to queue at the Ryanair 'Visa Check' desk to get her passport checked and her BP stamped (a Ryanair policy for non-EU pax which we are aware of and have dealt with in the past).

However, unlike anything we had seen before the desk at PMI had a sign in the window advising that for travel to be authorised and the 'stamp' granted, the pax had to demonstrate proof of legal presence/stay in the Schengen Area. It offered 3 options to show this, IIRC:

1) A valid residence permit for a Schengen state.
2) A valid Schengen visa.
3) A Schengen entry stamp dated within the past 3 months (in the case of non-visa nationals, such as my wife).

The rule appeared to be enforced by FR's ground agents and when my wife's turn came her passport was flipped through until her entry stamp at PMI 5 days previously was found (this was also examined by the staff involved). Anyway, we got the BP stamped and travelled home without much further ado (immigration outbound at PMI and inbound at LPL were both, incidentally, a breeze).

I am just curious about whether anyone has seen such a thing before, why FR might be doing this and, above all, is it legal? I can understand FR wanting to check pax documents for the destination but surely their status in the departing territory is somewhat immaterial? Airlines worldwide must (and do) carry those out of countries where they had previously been unlawfully present (i.e. overstayers). Indeed, don't most governments want immigration overstayers to leave and would be more than happy for the airlines to take them if they want to go? Surely it is not therefore unlawful for carriers to carry them? What then can FR be looking out for? My wife and I discussed this in the car home from LPL - people trafficking, illegal immigration - any thoughts?

Aviatrix

Your wife, as the spouse of an EU national, has an absolute RIGHT to accompany you to other countries in the EU (in fact she has more rights in other EU countries than she does in your home country). For Ryanair to insist on a Schengen entry stamp within the last three months (or either of the other two things mentioned) is unlawful in your particular case.

Palal

I've heard of them doing this. This is one of two things: someone is cracking down on them and is forcing them to do it (unlikely) or they want to have a way out of oversold flights.

Mizter T

You're rather jumping to conclusions there.

The problem is that Ryanair's outsources check-in and gate staff to the lowest bidder, and sometimes they just don't really know or understand what they're doing in terms of these visa checks.

Ryanair don't as a policy overbook flights.

alanR

Sounds more like ignorance than anything else so Ryanair haven't considered the possibility of anyone exercising their EU rights from non-Schengen countries

Offspring

I'm not saying that you're wrong but according to what article in the european draft does the spouse of a EU citizen have an absolute right to accompany you to another EU country? The reason I want to know is simply because it's usually much easier to refer to the specific rule/law/article rather than simply stating the facts. Nothing that law school teaches you more than waving documents around to scare people

Palal

As a policy, no, but in practice yes.

SteelCityBoy

European Directive/2004/38/EC allows for the free-movement of EU citizens and their non-EU spouses. Google it!

alanR

Always read the WHOLE article - in fact with most of this type of DM story it's best to look at the last few paragraphs where you find the truth

vitrysk_kille

But still spouse cannot stay more than 90 days in any 180 days period in any other country than one he/she got residence at. Free-movement applies, but in case stay is longer than 3 months EU-citizen should apply for residence right and at the same time spouse will be registered as well. Without it unfortunately it is impossible to stay in 3rd country more than 90/180.

So Ryanair are absolutely right in their view of Schengel rules.

Aviatrix

You are over-generalising.

Some (probably most) EU countries require people (both citizens and foreign residents) to register with the authorities at their place of residence.

Others don't.

The general rule is that EU citizens may stay in other EU countries under the same conditions as citizens of that country. Therefore, if a country does not have a registration system for its own citizens then citizens of other EU countries are not required to register either.

Aviatrix

To follow on from my previous post... it looks to me like Ryanair, in making up their rules, may have got confused between Schengen and the EU and may have failed to consider the fact that there are EU countries that are not part of Schengen.

The OP's wife is legally resident in the EU, and as the spouse of an EU national enjoys the same free movement rights as her husband.

If Mr & Mrs SteelCityBoy were to move to another EU member state she would not need to apply for a residence card for that country because she already has permanent residence in an EU member state. So Ryanair are wrong in insisting on a residence permit issued by a Schengen country.

And, in any event... Ryanair are an airline, not a department of the Immigration Service or Police. They do have to check passports to ensure they don't accept a passenger who would be denied entry to the destination country, but it's not up to them to determine a passenger's status in the country they are about to leave. For a flight to the UK the only thing they should check for is whether or not the passenger meets UK entry requirements.

SeattleFlyerGuy

Yup. Happened to me in Skavsta, Sweden (NYO) when I was headed to Berlin. Annoying, more than anything, and I see it as a way to hit people with fees: If you don't get that stamp before security, you don't get to fly. ...but I'm sure they would be happy to sell you a new ticket for their next flight at the going rate...

NickB

If we are talking about entry to another Member State, it is unfortunately a little more complicated than that. While the spouse of an EU national should in principle have more or less the same rights to free movement as the EU national himself/herself (although some Member States would probably take a narrower view and consider that it is far from obvious that such right exists for short-term tourist visits as opposed to settling in another Member State), Art 5 of Directive 2004/38 suggests that a Member State could demand production of either a "residence card of a family of a Union citizen" or a visa for the host state being visited.

Mrs SCB would not have such a residence card (she would only be entitled to such a document if Mr SCB was a resident in a Member State other than the UK) so, in theory, could be asked to apply for a visa if she was a national from a country whose nationals require visas for Schengen (IIRC not the case of Canada, though, for short-term tourist visits).

The trouble with DIrective 2004/38 is that it is primarily concerned with EU nationals (and their families) settling in other Member States rather than those on short-term touristic visits (indeed, some Member States might argue that it does not apply at all to most of the latter type of situations). While you can fit some short-term scenarios within it, not all of them fit easily.



Indeed. This is that more than anything else which is puzzling. Unless Spain has carrier obligations (other than PNR reporting) for exiting pax, this is rather puzzling.

SteelCityBoy

Hi all - sorry I've been away from the party for a little while.

Thank you all for your thoughts and responses - very interesting and as learned as I would expect from the FT community!

This is the crux of the problem I have with this matter. I'm thinking, if only out of curiosity not really out of anger, of pursuing this further to find out a) whether this is in fact legal and b) what authority and why FR are doing this? Does anyone have any ideas of a good first port of call? Probably not FR themselves - I was thinking my MEP or the EU (Solvit)?