Data Privacy Issue
 

I don't know if I'm doing the right thing posting this here... but I hope I'm forgiven if it's not!

When I joined FT I created a dedicated email address at one of my domains. This address is stored in my profile here, and receives Talkmail and the occasional message from a moderator, but it has never been used for anything else.

The FT Privacy Policy states that members' details are not passed on to third parties, and until this morning I never had any reason to doubt that FT adheres to this policy.

This morning my dedicated email address got spammed. It wasn't what I would call "criminal spam" - I wasn't being offered enhancement products, the spam hadn't been sent through a compromised server in China. It came from a travel company. But it was spam nevertheless. As they say in spam-fighting circles, spam isn't about conTent, it's about conSent. It seems that either someone has stolen addresses from FT's database, or FT has passed on my email address without my consent.

I am a little bit concerned...

Me too!
 

:mad: I received a travel spam mail this morning too. It also didn't have any of the usual 'you received this email because you indicated interested in xyz" or any unsubscribe information.

I'm obviously not happy to receive untargeted spam, can I opt out?

The SPAM came from a company called Internet Brands. This company recently purchased FlyerTalk from Randy Petersen. One can certainly expect IB to try and recoup the money they paid for FT, however:

• Sending SPAM to us was a truly bad business decision.
• Doing so after the porn ads and malware popups has made many of us lose trust in IB/FT.
• Misconfiguring the opt-out address was inexcusable (and illegal).
• Sending blatant SPAM that doesn't even try to let the recipient know the sender has anything to do with FT is totally stupid.

IB seems to be rapidly devaluing the good will it purchased from Randy. :(

I have been getting loads of SPAM subsequent to IB's purchase of FT. I have never used this email address for anything else, and I never got SPAM at this address before. Shame. :td:

And most of the mailings relate to penny stocks or organ enlargement.

Again, when IB bought and paid for FT they bought our information contained in the FT databases. Did you imagine IB would NOT monetize their investment in every way possible?

Randy ran FT like it was his passion because it was. IB will run FT like a business because it is.

All the other IBBs that I participate in that are run by businesses generate pop-ups, spam and every other possible ROI that internet companies can get. I dont begrudge them that and neither should anyone else. It's like sitting through commercials on free radio or TV. ^

I signed up with FT. I read the privacy statement (which said my details would not be passed on to third parties). I trusted that privacy statement.

Maybe it can be argued that IB is not a third party because they bought FT. I know US privacy laws are nowhere near as strict as privacy laws over here in the UK and that IB may well be acting within the law in the US. Here in the UK if you give someone your personal details for a specific purpose, and they use them for a different purpose, then they are committing an offence.

I appreciate that it is likely that no US law has been broken, but I am still not very happy.

I work in ad-supported TV. We would never send a virus to our audience's cable box - and we *certainly* wouldn't ignore it if one accidentally slipped through.

We'd also be much more responsive if people were complaining about porn advertising on our general interest networks, and more sensitive about trashing up an established brand.

Sorry - this is nothing like free TV.

Yup, SPAM from IBTravelDeals.com just showed up in my Inbox. As soon as it did, I came here wondering if others were getting it too. Clear that they are.

It just keeps getting better and better and better....

Edited to add: The optout address isn't working -- my email got bounced back to me. Is this how IB does business?

Details:

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. The following addresses failed:

<[email protected]>

SMTP error from remote server after RCPT command:
host mx3.internetbrands.com[207.212.172.6]:
560 5.7.1 <[email protected]>: Relay access denied

Good thing it's time for my morning shower. I feel some slime has gotten on me.

Aviatrix :
I have no idea what this problem may be. I do know that we have proudly guarded the gates of your privacy for a long number of years but recently did transfer that type of responsibility elsewhere. While there is some attention here to blame IB, I have asked their President as well as JohnMcQ to look in to this and report back to either me or the community on this thread. While i suspect there may be some dramatic antics by two members posting here, i do know that anything related to your privacy requires mine and anyone involved with FlyerTalk their highest priority.

I do hope we will be able to identify any actions that may have caused this but let's be reasonable and fair – there are any number of reasons these days that email addresses may be available including some viruses that attack email clients of some of our members thus making available anything in a member's email inbox as addresses.

I really don't know but know that there can be any number of reasons and from what limited powers we have in the tech area will devote both Joshua and Tim to see if there are any telltale signs from this end.

Again, i have invited IB forward to address this and let's hear what they might know.

CAN-SPAM is quite clear about providing a functioning Opt-Out.

Clearly the opt-out mechanism offered in the SPAM was not functional and thus a possible violation of the law (I need to point out that I am a Lay person and do not posses any qualifications to judge legality other than to make a guess from what I have read on the site that I have linked above).

Dan

Randy, I too used a unique email address in my domain when I subscribed and received the IB traveldeals SPAM to that email address. For the technically minded here is the header from the email that shows it came from internetbrands:

Received: from trav-mktg.internetbrands.com (mail.ibtraveldeals.com [207.212.174.236])
by barclay.textdrive.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A50C5FBC9C
for <[email protected]>; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:32:47 +0000 (GMT)

Randy, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I know you don't like being personal and I think that's a good thing, but I don't understand the above comments.

When Disney bought ABC from Capital Cities in 1996 there was a distinct re-branding and refocusing of the channel. It was integrated into Disney's corporate brand and structure and things were done on and to ABC that would NEVER have happened under the Cap Cities ownership.

We're still seeing the results of that acquisition as MNF was moved to another DIS outlet just last year, for example.

Things change and evolve in the corporate world, and now that FT is being run as and by a 'conglomerate' internet business a few things will change. But my point is that that is ok. IB is a very successful internet IBB company and they understand their business. I for one trust them and appreciate that they will bring FT to a slightly different place than we are used to. One that may create some inconveniences here and there but that will ultimately allow FT to continue to grow and expand.

And that's a GOOD thing! ^

PS, I certainly hope that this opinion is not considered an antic! :(

Edited to add: BTW, fwiw, I just checked and the IB email was already set to go to my bulk folder...probably from participating on another board that IB owns...

Randy:

No dramatics. Just some serious disappointment. You now have headers from 2 sources proving these emails came from IB. I hope that helps in your investigation.

--Rich

I don't think there are any dramatic antics at all going on here. What has been brought up here is a legitimate complaint.

The addresses we used to sign up for FT have now been used to send us SPAM. I do not believe we agreed to this when we signed up. Perhaps we did. Either way, they are still responsible for what was received. Internet Brands has its fingerprints all over the messages we have received:

• [*]
• [*]

At the very least, they are not in compliance with the CAN SPAM act.

Randy - this was spam *from* IB. There were carsdirect.com links in the email that sent us to travelzoo.

It's actually not really a data privacy issue, but just another degradation of the FT experience, as far as I can tell.

Same here.

It's not a privacy issue? I got the emails too and was definitely worried. The FlyerTalk Privacy Policy states...
A WhoIs for ibtraveldeals.com notes the following...
Registrant:
Internet Brands Inc
909 N Sepulveda Blvd
El Segundo, California 90245
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: IBTRAVELDEALS.COM
Created on: 07-Sep-07
Expires on: 08-Sep-08
Last Updated on: 07-Sep-07

Administrative Contact:
Knapp, Matthew [email protected]
Internet Brands Inc
909 N Sepulveda Blvd
El Segundo, California 90245
United States
13102805223 Fax --

Technical Contact:
Knapp, Matthew [email protected]
Internet Brands Inc
909 N Sepulveda Blvd
El Segundo, California 90245
United States
13102805223

Oh wow... that's not good.

I and several others I have been in contact with received the SPAM messages from IB yesterday. We recieved bounces for the opt-out last evening. We posted about the problem on FT. Instead of fixing the problem, instead of stopping the mailing, and instead of saying anything here, IB seems to have continued to let its servers spew forth messages to more FT members. I find it rather difficult to believe they have not yet either stopped sending the messages or fixed their opt-out address.

Why not just click 'mark as spam' in your email program and get back to talking points and miles!? @:-)

My opinion:

IB is a business and, as such, has to both protect its investment and to profit from it. To do so, it must ensure that it keeps the overwhelming majority of the heavy posters happy (as they provide the material that gives FT its value) while at the same time reaching them with advertising offers (as that is how it makes its profits).

My suggestions:

1. Members continue to post about problematic situations (viruses, SPAM which can not be unsubscribed from, tasteless ads, etc.) If we do not, we can not be certain that IB is even aware of the problems -- a situation which is not good for either it or us.

2. Members accept that fact that IB is in business to make money and not object to reasonable attempts by it to use the database for this.

3. IB work as quickly as possible to fix the problems cited in paragraph # 1. If this means a temporary suspension of all advertising, so be it. Once the problems are solved, advertising can resume. It is better for IB to lose money on a short term basis than to risk alienating the heavy posters who provide the content which gives FT its value.

Randy and I have had our differences of opinions over the years, and neither of us has been shy about discussing them, but it would be idiotic of me not to recognize the time, money, and effort he put into building FlyerTalk. He well deserves every penny that he was able to get from its sale and I would be the last person in the world to hold that against him.

IB, in turn, having paid that money to Randy deserves the opportunity to recoup it and profit from its investment. Moreover, if it does not, it will eventually decide to cut its losses and shut FT down.

That would not be a happy event for anyone. Not for IB. Not for FlyerTalkers. Not even for Randy -- who despite having received payment for FlyerTalk still has a heavy emotional involvement in it.

This is going to require IB and FTers to work together and to be willing to compromise.

I think that sums it up nicely. FT has constantly evolved. Some of us remember the days before the current plethora of forums. The days before moderation and moderators. The days before OMNI. The days before Pudding Guy.

IB's ownership of of FT is going to cause more evolution and change.

No need to get upset about it! Just roll with the changes!!! ^

IB admits to me about the TravelZoo! mailing which they will post to on this thread, but if we were to consider our "trusted" members who post things like this "And most of the mailings relate to penny stocks or organ enlargement." it gets completely strange as those posting the header seems only related to the TravelZoo! snafu, not this other type stuff which does not seem to be verified yet. I would think that leaves it open to trying to get to the bottom of this, assuming that everything any member has posted here is true.

As for disappointment, i doubt anyone is more disappointed than I. We've spent years building up an expected environment and from that investment of trust, i hate to see it changed - for any reason.

Actually I do consider it SPAM as it was not directly sent from FlyerTalk and that is who the current privacy policy was written from and to. The confusing part is a single member on this thread is saying that they received similar emails that included "And most of the mailings relate to penny stocks or organ enlargement.". No one else seems to be reporting this and that is the focus of our research since we regard this as far more serious.

While i have no control of these issues, i can certainly let others know I am not pleased and work toward getting these things corrected–for now and well into the future.

Randy, and what about the porn and trojan attacks for the past several weeks?

We've not even heard an apology. The ads are still coming, even after complaints from the first attacks.

I'm sure this is NOT what you expected to see happen to Flyertalk.

Well, personally, I think you're going further than your obligation to us when you characterize it that way, and that's pretty honorable.

Thanks.

I am VERY glad to see this. Regarding the unsubstantiated allegations above, I know a few members whose subscription addresses were never given out to anyone but FT. These address have so far only received the TravelZoo SPAM and nothing else.

i know, which is why this is puzzling to me. The other member is well-known in the AA board to be a proponent of only posting factual and true items and as such we are taking him/her for their word, though as you say, these other addresses have so far received only the TravelZoo SPAM. But nonetheless, we continue our research and am awaiting for IB to post something.

I am also glad to see the post quoted above. The email that I use for FT dealings is strictly for FT and to date the only email in that box is the ibtraveldeals SPAM message.

Dan

I assume you are referring to me, and I will be glad to send you the next offending email which will doubtless arrive in a few minutes. I have not looked at the headers, but will do so at the next opportunity. All I know to be "factual and true" is that (1) I have never used my dedicated FT email address for any other purpose and (2) the SPAM that I refer to started arriving shortly after IB's acquisition of FT. If this is indeed an unhappy coincidence, I apologize for the harsh tone of my earlier post. However, an alternative explanation escapes me.

If your computer gets compromised by a virus/malware/spyware, it can read the contents of your mail folders in Outlook Express (or your mail client of choice, but usually Outlook/OE), and send the e-mail addresses it finds to a compromised server somewhere to get added to a spam list. I might be teaching granny to suck eggs, but you might want to make sure you have an up-to-date virus scanner, and run an adware/malware scan such as Adaware or Windows Defender.

This could be how your FT e-mail address has started getting penis enlargement mail.

I too have a dedicated e-mail address for FT and to date the only spam received there was the IB one today.

Mike

I don't claim to be an expert on computer security, but I send 50+ emails a day out into the world using my regular work email address and have probably received 3-4 total SPAM emails in the last two years. I do regularly run virus and adware scans.

Your company likely has a low-spam tolerance and is deleting them before you see them.

I am sure we recognise that. :cool:

Folks as Koko said, things are evolving. They always have here, and always will. If we do not like it, don't visit or don't post, and clearly not much of that is occurring! ;)

FWIW they did not email me .. wonder if it was somehow USA targeted?

I'm sure that IB also knows that if they blow it with FlyerTalk many many of us will follow Randy to whatever venture he may (be contractually allowed to) start.

Or somewhere else completely..

I've been following the various threads in both ORP & Tech issues.

I get that those of us (like me) have the 'Premium' issue don't get the ads - haven't seen anyone's private parts yet ;). So that part is working. But I also don't think it's fair to others by other Premium members on this thread who have paid the $12 to avoid vagina shots to say 'ante up or quit your b*tch'in'. Come on folks. Porn? They should not have to ante up $12 to avoid that.

And yes it was only FT that promised your info is safe but IB took it over, so either they abide by it or they don't. Which now that IB has gotten their input (and it's not been good), seems like they'll do in the future.

Heck I would not have minded getting a 1-time SPAM (and I think others are the same, although I'm projecting) - IF it said it was 1-time only, it provided an opt-in, not just an opt-out & even if it was an opt-out, an opt-out that worked (which I'm assuming they've done by now given the potential for the CAN-SPAM against them).

And if they had done a message at the top of the forums, 'we're thinking of offering travel related emails (such as was received by everyone) & would you like to get them, click here for yes/click here for no', that would have basically solved all the complaint issues (at least for the travel stuff - not re: the porn). Those who were interested would say yes/the rest no, and everyone's email would be safe. They blew that one.

What I will NOT give IB a pass on is from what I've read on this forum & in tech issues is where FTers are getting malware & trojans which are infecting their computers - and no, not all those people are luddites w/ no protection at all. AFAIK my computer is ok, but now I'm bringing someone in to check it out. And I use my computer primarily for bizness (although obviously I surf FT). If malware/trojans from FT/IB had damaged it, they'd be hearing from me in a more direct fashion than posting on FT. Granted I think I'm ok, but if not a 'we're checking into it' post on FT would not suffice. And given IB's offices are about 2 miles from my place I'd demand a tech visit to sort it all out. Others geography might not work so well. ;)

OVMV. Cheers.

I got it - as did at least one other person in the UK.

I also received the IBTravelDeals.com spam to a dedicated FT-only email address. Not happy. :mad: I am in Australia with a .org email address.

Nope- I got it in Ireland.