Language
 

I know I'm going to be flamed for this... and I know that this is an Internet Bulletin board where just about anything within decency can be said and goes... but...

Personally I'm bothered by some of the language used in posts on this board...

Words like Pi**#d (I'm too much a gentleman to use foul language in my writing -- even when I criticize someone) and in another thread someone says something like "we have a few nutcases over here." For someone who knows someone with mental illness... I take that as an insult and very derogatory.

And other words.

And I will REPEAT that the attacks are getting bad again. They calmed down during the Labor Day Holiday mostly but personally I would watch how you "express" a point.

It may not offend everyone who's easy going here. But it does offend some like myself.

Randy: If you find this post out of line close it up or I will delete this post (and only you and the Inside Flyer staff can tell me to do so.)

I stand by what I say and what I feel.

Does this rule apply to everyone's posts, or just your posts Catman?

Perhaps now everyone will know why Catman is the heart of these FT boards. He may well be the soul and conscience, too.

Upgrade me, that quote applies to this one post I made called "Language." I"m not talking about anyone else for the record.

Nathan Detroit, thank you.

I agree. Since everyone here doesn't know everyone else so well that they can joke around, I second Catman in saying to all (myself included) to try and watch what you are posting.

<Edited because my ")" ended up as part of the link>
Catman, (and everyone)

As usual, I agree with the spirit of your post. -And I don't think I have flamed anyone on the Boards. (Due apologies if I have rubbed anyone the wrong way.)

However, I do not 100% agree with one of the examples you quoted (from the following thread, I think: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/000571.html ).

You took offense at the mention of the word "nutcase," whereas I see it as pretty unequivocally tongue-in-cheek --especially considering it came after bokich's comment about "all of us FF lunatics." Technically, I suppose both of the above could have used a "smiley" to make the self-effacing humor clearer (neither did), but I think the ambiguity that can accompany short FT messages necessitates not only that people don't go overboard in what they post (as you wisely wrote), but also in what they read into things.

So I will try to give other posters the benefit of the doubt when there is some ambiguity, and try to eliminate ambiguity from my posts so that others do not need to do likewise with me.

-KP

(I of course hope that this post is not mistaken to be downplaying the seriousness of mental illness, etc.)

[This message has been edited by kidpachinko (edited 09-05-2000).]

Again, I think the issue here is the use of language.

I also think that lunatics might be a bit off the way, although maybe a smiley might work.

Remember, this is just one opinion of someone who tries to be very sensitive about what I say and what I post. SOmetimes I miss the mark and I apologize but we need to be more sensitive.

And, again, I cringe at the word P*#@ed!!!

Again, can we try to use another word than that one? The profanity bugs me to no end!

Catman, In theory, I agree with you. I'm of the opinion that just about everything we need to say CAN be conveyed without the use of profanity. However, please keep in mind that we all do not have the same definitions for the same words. If I travel to London, England or Sydney, Australia and sit in a pub and have too many pints of beer to the point that I'm drunk, someone may comment that that I am "pissed" (as in drunk). Same word, different definition...

Well personally I think you are being hypersensetive, but that it your opinion and you are entitled to it.

However, I have noticed in the past that the autocensor function of the board is very inconsistent in what it does and does not allow. For instance d**n (which is a very mild term IMO) is blocked, while Catman's example above, c**p and to***r [my asterisks] are not. I am sure many other words fall in to similar categories, but I am not going to try them all!

Therefore Webflyer, I suggest you do the following: Make the autocensor work properly and make it reasonable in what it does and does not block. In doing this, stop it being so Americo-centric, because it lets through plenty of English words that are vastly more offensive than d**n in many other parts of the world.



[This message has been edited by james (edited 09-05-2000).]

Geo, I truly understand that and in the context of this sentence "Geo got really pissed/drunk in Seattle." That's fine.

There are other areas when soemone who is angry "I'm so P**&ed at that idiot Catman for his inane posts on his cats."

In that context, the proper word to use is angry or furious or mad.

But Geo, we're best buddies and we can get blanked together in Seattle in a few weeks.

Who is to say what words are bad and what words are good. "Pissed", in Ireland it means drunk, in the US is means mad. "Nutcase, to some it is a nasty word, to others it is a case of nuts." Are we looking for family values here on this board? Who is going to define family values. If a thread has words you don't like, that is what the back button is for. Perhaps one of you would like to make a list of what words are good or bad, then run for president or appoint yourself to the supreme court.

If you start a thread, it would be nice if you could decide what type of language you would allow in it and edit out what you don't like. However, the owners of the board have decided moderators are not allowed based on who starts the thread (something that is a change which is easily made.) For those of you who keep complaining, I would rather have bad language then censorship by a few people on all the threads. I think moderators based on who started the thread is middle ground. As membership grows, the owners of the board will have to keep re-thinking the best way to operate the board. In the mean time, complaining about language is getting old. Ignore it, read a different thread. I have enough complaints to deal with on a regular basis, why make me read ones about language. Sticks and stones can break my bones..... and so forth. THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO BE RUDE TO ANYONE ON THE BOARD DIRECTLY.

The first word in the title of a thread on a current "NEWS" posting is a VERY common and totally non-offensive expression in Australia, i.e.. "PI*SED". It appears regularly in newspaper articles in the MOST conservative broadsheets here. It may it seems have a different meaning in Paducah, or Wheeling W.Va. But fanny and rooting and dozens of other words have entirely different meanings here, in NZ, and in the UK, to what they do it the USA.

Without in any way trying to poke fun at our host here, his first name as James and others not resident in the USA will doubtless confirm, has a TOTALLY different meaning and connotation in the rest of the English speaking world.

The number of males christened in Australia during the past 20 years with the first name RANDY would be nil is my best guess. That kid would spend the rest of his life here fending off terrible jokes and far worse.

The English language changes substantially across the globe. There are words in ALL English speaking countries that are highly inappropriate on a board like this, and I for one trust we never see them here. I cannot imagine "The Times" using the word cr*p and ar*se, but both are fine by UBB on this board.

The latter word was used without ANY comment by a well known board regular in the last week, to my VERY great surprise. Even more surprising was it was used in a thread started by Catman on Sept 1st, and Catman posted soon after it, and he himself made no comment, so it seems cr*p typed in full is far less offensive than pis*ed?

I would never personally use "Pis*ed" in a thread title, but it did not/does not particularly offend me. Now it has been raised it may offend some, I would not use it in a thread body. But I most strongly disagree with Catman that this word could ever in the year 2000 be regarded as "profanity"!

I suspect it can't be terribly offensive in common useage in the USA, as Whoopi Goldberg used in on prime time network TV in Feb, at the Academy Awards. "The Age" is about as radical as the New York Times! This is a direct and exact quote:


"Naomi: a ..... of a role model
WHOOPI GOLDBERG said it best while hosting an Academy Awards ceremony: ``What is it about supermodels? Ten
thousand an hour and they still look pissed off." And if there is ever an Oscar presented for the Most Pissed Off
Supermodel, Whoopi won't even ...
The Age, Feb 2000"


Despite someone asserting something to the contrary a few days ago, I defy ANYONE to post here one widely recognised offensive word used by me in a post on these boards. I have many times asked posters to consider editing cr*p and ar*e etc and other similar words from their posts.

I again do not feel they are overly offensive, but there are other ways to tell the story without them. Not everyone may agree with what I say, or how I say it, or to whom on these boards (ain't that the truth!) but you will NOT ever see me using gutter language to do it.

The UA board affectionately refers to their budget priced carrier as the UA Sh!ttle or Sh*ttle. I have never seen anyone object to this use. Does anyone here?

The Whoopi Goldberg Academy Award word may bother Catman, and as he says, it is his personal view only and like Voltaire, I will fight for his right to express it and hold it, whilst not agreeing with him. Censorship of the written word bothers me if taken to any extreme, but commonly accepted offensive words should of course be avoided on a civilised board like FlyerTalk and edited out of courtesy if objected to by a core of those on any thread. (IMHO of course!)

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~ Glen ~




[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 09-05-2000).]

Excellent posts Ozstamps and JRF. However, it seems as if Webflyer want to have the autocensor or it wouldn't be here - my thought is that it ought to work propely, and at least consistently. As rehashed many times, censoring the name of important world cities beacause they might upset anglophone ears is just petty.

ozstamps

You made a post and used the word d**khead. I politely asked you to edit it and remove the word and you did not. That is a word that I don't think could be construed as anything else except what you meant.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/001022.html

Whose dictionary do we use to decide words?



[This message has been edited by goldelite (edited 09-05-2000).]

double post .. sorry.

[This message has been edited by goldelite (edited 09-05-2000).]

Baze . . . I did not visit that thread after your post, which is evident. If you care to do a search that is the only time I have used that word in 2300 odd posts as far as I am aware. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Again it is like Randy, rooting, or cr*p ... totally different levels of acceptance, in different places by different people. The word you mention is used daily HERE in Australia in most levels of conversation. It is as socially acceptable at any level HERE as cr*p is, or ar*e. Far more so IMHO. And NONE are "profane".

In the USA, it may be different. We all pick these things up, and for instance now attention being raised to "pis*ed" I will personally be mindful of it, although I wonder if cr*p will be used by others here any less??!!

Do you not have a problem with that one yourself?

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~ Glen ~

ozstamps

I never said you used it more than the one time. I can't see how in any culture it can be anything but a derogatory remark, even in common everyday talk. It is used commonly here in the USA too but that does not mean it is an acceptable word. It is meant in a derogatory way here. And I asked very politely for you to edit it out. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem. All it would have taken from you is either editing it or mentioning that in your culture it is not meant as a derogatory word. But in the context you used it, it can be construed as nothing but. End of subject.

Baze. Australia invented this word decades ago. Only in recent times have US movies latched on to it. Here it means simply "a person behaving foolishly". That was the EXACT context I used it in with that CO article. Nothing more, nothing less. How about those other words you seem to have no opinion on?

Here is the dictionary definition of that noun from a local website:
http://home.echo-on.net/~buzzcorr/DI...0-%20LINGO.htm

Australia invented it???? I have heard the word used for decades here. Why is it that Australia invented it or you pointed it out, etc. etc. etc. You seem to take a lot of credit for things posted long before you came on board (like using 2P, 1P, 1K) I saw them being used LONG before you showed up.

I do take offense to the use of words like cr*p when they are spelled out. At least most have the decency to use * so they are not spelled out. Believe me I am no prude, I spent 9 years in the Navy and have heard them all and in the right place I use them. But in a public forum where people may be offended I choose not to use them. "Discretion is the better part of valor". Even in your definition of the word in question it is still derogatory. It is insulting someone. These forums are for exchanging information, not insulting people.

In the Navy we used a saying which I think should be adhered to in all walks of life. It would make life much more pleasant. "Praise in public, discipline in private". I made a very polite "suggestion" is all.

I don't like the P* word.
I don't like the N* word.
I don't like the A* word, like G.W. Bush used it recently.
We don't need such language - PERIOD!

I will make one more point on this language thing...

I showed this thread to a friend of mine with a young child and a young niece. She saw the words liked P*@#ed and the WHoopie Goldberg Oscar joke (I never found her funny IMHO) and she said "While it doesn't bother me, what if young children read this forum and start asking their parents what's this word?"

(I remember this is the same child who picked up some very foul words from "south Park" because the babysitter fell asleep with the t-v. The child is very smart and aborbs things like a sponge.)

I have friends with children who also know me as UNCLE Catman. And their parents, some who are not even as liberal with their views on language as SURPRISE me... My friend's husband saw a few threads and said "so these are the kind of people you hang out with. I'm disappointed in you."

Just watch the language please. There are other people are reading and their children are even reading too.

ON another note that bothers me:

1. I am NOT a Puritan
2. I am NOT advocating censorship or anything in that vein.
3. I like James' idea of a filter device to put asteriks in potentially bad words (I think they need to update the software though.)
4. I am NOT the KING of FLyertalk and I only made my views because I feel we can be classy and mature without being totally "adult."

I don't care if you agree or not. I'm just stating one CAT's Views.

Thank you for reading.

Wasn't it Mark Twain who said, "Slang is language that spits on it's hands, rubs them together, and gets to work."?

Slang has a very useful place in society, often more accurately communicating in one word a person's thoughts than a whole paragraph might. But IMHO slang has it's place and is not appropriate in every place.

I personally use much more care and try to avoid slang when writing on FlyerTalk than I would around friends or in private communications. That's not only because it is a "international" bulletin board where some from other countries might not understand it's use.

The main reason I try to avoid slang here is because of consideration to others. Unlike when talking to friends or individuals, I have no idea who might be reading this forum, and therefore try to be more careful and selective in the way I write so as not to offend some who might find some words objectionable.

I know some will say "Why the h**l should I change the way I write just because of a few who might object to some harmless word or another?" I suggest while you may have every "right" to use some words here, that perhaps you and I should be a bit more considerate that others may find some of those words objectionable. Maybe try to find another way to get the same thoughts and points across.

It's very easy to substitute "ticked off" for "p**sed off." I really feel that LarryU didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm certain that like many, they "write" like they "speak" and that just sounded natural to him. And I also feel that some slang is useful in communicating emotional feelings better than other forms of communication, and would hate to see anyone post what they consider acceptable and/or non-acceptable words. FlyerTalk, as the owners and hosts of this private board are the only ones who are permitted to have a "hit list" of what is inappropriate for their board, IMHO.

Well said!

I am confused, if this a public or private board. It is free and open to the public, does that make it private or public.

If the owners of the board would take some action to deal with the problem; be it to clarify what is acceptable, or to put in an auto corrector, or anything, at least define the law of the land and enforce it equally. Anything to stop the CONSTANT complaining about language. As it is now, this thread keeps going and going due to a lack of action (and perhaps people who get upset at the smallest things.)

For now, if you don't like the language, ignore it or go away. I ignore it. On the other hand, the owners should take action of some type so that at least you know how things are going be. This is just like Randy and the DL thread. Ignore the fact it even exist and maybe it will go away. This is really simple, either ignore the issue or deal with it. Then, depending on the outcome, people can decide for themselves if they want to stay or go away.

Well said, indeed, PremEx. Wow!

The fact that I am unsure whether I have been extra careful of worldwide readers implies that I probably have not been. -I think I remember spelling out ar*e in a bid to be cute and to avoid a*s. I'll hopefully be more careful in the future, as there is certainly nothing lost by being careful.

-KP

In that I am probably the offending cr***er referred to by ozstamps, I suppose it is incumbent upon me to chime in here. If I offended anyone by my language, I apologize, since that was certainly not my intent, although it definitely was my intent to attract attention and emphasize my strong feelings on the subject that was at hand. And I'll certainly be the first to admit that the "c*" word (that one, at least), might be more objectionable than the "p*" word, which I consider fairly innocuous.

I should point out, though, that there is a practical reason that Catman would be expected to have a more sensitive word filter than most of the rest of us. He writes, professionally, every day and under very tight deadlines, for a broadcast news outlet. He can not afford to let even a little offensive invective pass from his keyboard through to an anchor's lips, who, in most cases, believe it or not, will read exactly what appears before them on the prompter. One mistake can doom an entire career, and in this business, that has happened on countless occasions. So when you write as much as Catman does, there really is no way to have different habits for different writing venues; it's just too easy to forget where you are. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

Having said all that, I have a proposal: If the UBB language filter is user-definable, why not let those FT'ers who wish to, vote on the no-no dictionary? I, for one, will have absolutely no problem pledging beforehand to abide by the result.

It is very common for young boys to go through a toilet talk phase. Mothers work very hard to teach them that this is inappropriate, and to help them quickly outgrow this pesky period, which usually occurs during their 7th summer.

For those of you who did not have mothers (Aunts or Grandmothers) of your own to teach you these things, and for those of you who have drunk so much brewski that it has wiped your mind clear of all your early childhood lessons, here is the drill:

We don't discuss bodily elimination functions or body parts which are covered by a bathing suit in public, because it will probably offend somebody, and we want everybody to know what a nice boy you are. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 09-05-2000).]

Rich G, you bring up a good point. Firstly, please understand I am fairly new to the board myself. As far as I can tell, the rules of the board are set by the board owner, and not the users of the board. Allowing users to decide what words are and are not acceptable changes the general operating structure of the board.

Changing from owner based management to user based management is a FUNDAMENTAL structure change and will require more time from the owners. The owners would have to sort out the difference of opinions from the many and growing number of members as to what words are acceptable.

As I have stated in the past, I would like to see only clean language, but not at the cost of the right controlling censorship of the board. How nice it would be if I could start a thread and edit out language in the threads I start, and only threads I start. This concept has been mentioned before and vetoed by the board owners.

Finding middle ground will probably be the solution. In the mean time, I think it is better for no censorship then censorship by one or a few people.

Rich G .. must be mea cupla week around here! No, never saw your post. Was one started by Catman September 1st, and that unedited cr*p typed by another regular passed by him and others without comment whatever in that thread. No young kiddies up reading that one it seems?! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I am surprised what the UBB does let in and what it does automatically edit. The one they use on the eBay chat boards will not allow even the use of "who reads" or "who regards" etc used in conjunction, with a space as shown as it decided you were speaking of a lady of ill repute. So, "profanity checkers" can be stupid if used too judiciously!

Seriously, given the large number of posts around these boards, and the "self policing" nature of the sensible people that use ALL these boards I am not sure they is too much need for ANYTHING to change unless Randy feels it should for some reason. The odd nutter troll that lets loose like "MileageGod" of a few months back can be quietly banned and/or the threads in question closed off.

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~ Glen ~

Punki...oh poop! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

It must be the brewskies. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif

I need to clarify to EVERYONE (see, I'm not singling out anyone here) that I can't read EVERY forum and Look at EVERY post so the only way I find out if something is potentially offensive is by someone alerting me to it.

I don't want to be a moderator and I am not the leader of this board and I never want to be.

JRF: I'm not trying to dictate policy over word usage here. As I wrote before, I'm just expressing one opinion, MY OPINION, and I'm not into censorship and I'm not into limiting what people have to say. No one here has to accept what I have to say (but I know at least one Flyertalker who stands by me.)

It's like what PremEx said best...
and I quote..

"The main reason I try to avoid slang here is because of consideration to others. Unlike when talking to friends or individuals, I have no idea who might be reading this forum, and therefore try to be more careful and selective in the way I write so as not to offend some who might find some words objectionable."

Well said PremEx.

I think that's what we should keep in mind when posting. It's an international forum. I try NOT to offend anyone on this board.

All I want is a clean and relatively flame free board. But more and more I'm feeling like my best buddy wanderlust: the board is rapidly becoming NOT the place for me.

FYI to PUNKI: there are some GIRLS who also have the toilet talk too. I went to school with some of them.

Punki: PremEx was referring to sheep poop, since they don't wear bathing suits.

Forgot to say: Rich G is right on the money and i"m even more sensitive on language (hense the debate about how to describe the naughty word George W. Bush used to describe the NY Times reporter!)

Thank you Rich. I'm saving your post and it's good to have another news dude who understands.

Make that at least TWO other "news dudes". I am a fully trained and accredited capital city daily newspaper journalist. I just find "selective profanity" based on who types it even stranger to understand and indeed justify and overlook. The clear and recent example I gave here has indeed not been explained yet.



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 09-06-2000).]

OOPS>.. I forgot two toher news dudes:

NJDavid, who is also a comptuer genius and a terrific brother and my Costco shopping partner.

Essxjay, the fine writer and philsopher and one of the best sisters I ever had.

SO it's nice to have a little news group on our boards.

Here's an old broadcasting rule (Not necessarily universally honored these days):

Never, Ever, EVER, curse in an announce booth. The microphone you think is off can just as easily be on a moment later!

Such topics that aim to proscribe behavior can themselves serve to piss some people off.

[This message has been edited by FQTV (edited 09-06-2000).]

Now WHAT American politican might have wished he read THAT posting a few days back?? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif


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~ Glen ~