ROW 10% Discount Rip-Off
 

I recently purchased Oneworld Explorer tickets (Business Class) during the Anniversary 10% discount period. Paid for and tickets issued.

Due to business commitments I was obliged to amend the dates of travel by 1 week - no change to routing, just dates! This was done shortly after the Anniversary 10% discount offer expired/

I was horrified when TA informed me that according to CX I would forfeit the 10% discount and therefore had to pay the difference before tickets would be reissued.

This appears to be completely contrary to the the Oneworld Technical Rule Sheet:

[i](a) Rebooking/Rerouting
(1) Prior to departure
(a) Origin TC1
(1) After ticket issuance - changes to the first international flight and preceding flights are not
permitted less than seven days prior to the date of the first ticketed flight. Date/time/oneworld
carrier/inventory changes to other flights permitted provided ticketed points remain the same.
(2) Changes other than to Date/time/oneworld carrier/inventory permitted at a charge of
USD125.00 per transaction.
(b) Origin TC2/3
(1) After ticket issuance - date/time/oneworld carrier/inventory changes are permitted provided
ticketed points remain the same.
(2) Changes other than to Date/time/oneworld carrier/inventory permitted at a charge of
USD125.00 per transaction./I]

Is this a CX scam or just ineptitude on the part of CX ticketing department ?

If you are changing the start of the whole trip, then they are perfectly correct

Dave

I think you'd have a case if you want to go legal - the terms of your contract as I read them say it's a free of charge change, but nobody has yet pushed them on this as far as I am aware. If it's ex-HKG then the amount in dispute is likely to be less than HK$50K, so you could take it to the HKG small claims tribunal.

If you let them reissue then not only will you lose the 10% discount, you'd also have to pay the current price, which could be substantially higher again (depending on where you originate).

I'm not sure how CX can be right?

On the one hand their (CX) rules are not in the public domain. The Oneworld rules appear to allow change of 1st coupon according to rule 16 without charge.

The only reference to changing the date of 1st intercontinental sector is in, the rather oddly numbered "0" of the technical rule sheet which states:

[I]The date of the first intercontinental sector determines the applicable seasonal fare for the entire journey.
Seasonality will be determined by the country of commencement of travel. If the outbound intercontinental
sector is open dated charge the peak season fare./I]

Once again according to Oneworld's website, seasonality only applies to Economy fares.

In my case, the fare is still the same (as I had ticket reissued before 1 May), only the discount no longer applies.

So I guess one is faced with 2 sets of rules that apparently contradict each other - one is in the public domain and the other is not, and the one that seems to apply is the unknown one.

Furthermore, when the ticket was issued, there were absolutely no conditions that you would expect where there are restrictions on amendments etc.

Above all, it certainly is not within the spirit that Oneworld announced the 10% discount.

Changing the 1st coupon is a complete reissue and repricing and is a normal standard ticketing activity and not part of fare rules

If the fare has changed, then c'est la vie

Dave

But that needs to be in the terms of the contract, and I don't see it anywhere. You can't just say "that's how it works" - contract tyerms are contract terms. I really hope someone will test this in court.

What if I am invol downgraded by CX (as mentioned in my other thread) and I need to change the date to get myself back to F?

I am talking about the 1st sector being downgraded.

It is an IATA rule that trumps the OW rules. It is not in their TOC because it does not have to be. First flight change means reissue against the conditions at that point in time. It is the law of the air and not a decision made by OW or your carrier. They can not make an exception. Something you could have taken advantage of if you purchased the ticket just before the 10% discount period. In this case: tough.

And involuntary downgrades are also no excuse since the ticket is for travel and not for a specific class. But that has been discussed to death already. Sometimes CX will compensate though, but only if it is last minute.

Dave

Thanks for the comment which raises a further issue:

The Oneworld Anniversary promotion offered 10% discount on fares. In this instance the fare has not changed, it is still the same fare that was in existence when the discount offer was in operation.

A discount is a reduction on the normal price, so what CX have done is remove the discount, not apply a new fare (because there was no new fare).

In the IATA world your logic does not work. It was a discounted fare, not a fare with a discount. Not logical maybe, but true.

By the way: it is in the TOC

Rebooking of the first coupon.

"Permitted without charge, the fares and charges shall be calculated in accordance with the fares and conditions in effect on the date on which the change is made"

balding theirs...

Rerouting the same but with the additional US125

Fair enough.....although grossly misleading.

Based on the Oneworld offer and their own Explorer Rules the consumer has a legitimate expectation that he will be treated in a particular manner which, at the end of the day, turns out to be the exact opposite due to a set of rules and regulations that hide in the murky waters to be used by airlines when it suits them.

So why publish fare rules if the alliance members have absolutely no intention of being bound them.

I suspect there may be a good case to argue, legally, that Oneworld has used their own rules (and advertising) to induce people to enter into specific contracts on specific terms - which the airline members have absolutely no intention of honouring as they regard their own rules as being subsidiary to IATA regulations.

I added the extract from the rule sheet later, so I suppose you haven't read that yet. It is also the responsibility of the purchaser to know what they are buying. Sellers cannot be expected to take every possible misinterpretation of the rules into account.

Besides: if you had reissued a ticket from before the discount when the 10% discount was in effect you would have gotten that discount too. It works both ways.

I understand your frustration but that is just the way it works. xONEx tickets are a bloody good deal so no sense complaining.

I suspect we may not be singing from the same "hymn sheet", so to speak!

I lifted the rule sheet from the Oneworld website and I must say that Rule 16 would appear to support my contention. I certainly cannot find the rule you showed, although I am now aware that it exists. Additionally, I can find little in Explorer rules that rebut my view.

I also agree with you on value and in this case the ticket is paid for by my employer. Nevertheless I do feel that there is an argument of principle involved

Here you go

I agree you have to really dive into it and most people learn by making the mistake. They could communicate it better, expecially for a ticket that is mostly issued long before it is used. So I agree with your frustration but it is in the rules and if you had asked before issuing they would have told you so.

I would suggest you take this up with OneWorld4U and see if you can't get the rules communicated better. Legally you have nothing though.

Of course, that's the CX version of the rules; applicable when departing from HKG.

Here's what ExpertFlyer has to say:The killer here is "UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED" - right at the start.

Which begs the question: SPECIFIED where? In these rules or other rules unbeknown to you?

You will find that this clause is in all rule sheets no matter who the carrier is or what to point of origin.

It is always wise to ask for a copy of the rule sheet from the vendor with these complex products. As I said: I understand the frustration since the OW site seems to indicate that changes are permitted. It is a case of very poor communication. Caveat emptor though...

As you read the rules it is clear to me that any sort of change is allowed. They even have special rules for TC1 or TC2. What does all the wording mean if not exactly that changes are allowed?

'Their' procedure of having to re-issue should not have anything to do with their customers.

It is a case were there could be a class action suit against them.

RTW rule myths
 

Jaypee:

There is NO rule about changing the DATE of departure as long as it is within one year of ticket issuance, however, one can not change the destination of the first segment.
Where CX is coming up with this mystical rule is troubling. I have changed my departure dates twice on AONE 4's issued by AA.
CX seems to be applying some rule that does not apply to One world tickets. Now EK has a rule you cannot change first departure date.

In my experience agents seem to get rules from one RTW fare and apply it to all RTW fares.

If anyone finds the rule that proves us wrong please post it.

Had a very interesting chat to BA agent regarding Oneworld Explorer rules and asked what the situation would be if I changed 1st sector and he it appears that it could be done without recalculating fare provided itinerary did not change.

So even BA appear to apply Oneworld published rules.

I find this all very strange... IATA does not allow for the change of the first flight against the same conditions as at the time of the original sale. They require the carrier to reissue at the price at the time of the change.

It is not in the OWE rules (since this is no OW rule) but it is in the rule sheet for the OWE for agents. I gave a CX example earlier but I cannot find one that does not state that.

So anybody with proof (personal preferably) that this is done (not could be done or they told me so) under normal circumstances. please post it here.

I do find it somewhat surprising that depsite this being the third or fourth thread on this topic over the recent period, there is seemingly no resolution, and also that oneworld4u has not provided a comment

Henkbaby, many thanks for the interest shown to my predicament and your useful comments, you have certainly exercised my mind on the matter.

I am still not convinced by the IATA requirements - please bare with me, I'm afraid that what follows is slightly long winded:

1. Assuming I am booking online through oneworld, I am asked to confirm that I have read and accepted “oneworld Explorer Product Information” and “Terms and Conditions of Carriage” – both oneworld website links.

2. “oneworld Explorer Product Information” contains a statement that that the full product details, terms and conditions are contained in the oneworld Explorer rule sheet (and a link is provided). The only reference to IATA refers to tariff coordination areas.

3. The “oneworld Explorer Product Information” further contains a list of T&Cs, none of which would indicate that a 1st sector date/time change would result in a fare recalculation. Even where this may be inferred, and at quite a stretch really, Rule 16 is pretty unambiguous that date/time changes are permitted provided ticketed points remain the same. Furthermore, such conditions are likely to void for vagueness.

4. Even though there is a : “Further rules and conditions” clause in the T&Cs, this should only be used where there are gaps in the T&Cs and certainly not to supersede specific rules.

5. I had a quick read throughCathay's Conditions of Carriage (35 pages!!) where I found no reference to IATA.

6. What was interesting was the definition of “Conditions of Contract” which “ is statements contained and or delivered with your ….”Electronic Ticket” (Itinerary receipt) which is incorporated by reference to these conditions of Carriage and notice(s).

7. So I look at my e-ticket and lo and behold – No endorsements or restrictions at all.

8. There is even a link to the IATA regulations pertaining to my ticket – Again no message that could even begin to justify adjusting the fare even the 1st coupon is amended.

So where is the justification for this – absolutely nowhere except hidden from the passenger. Maybe I'm missing the wood for the trees?

I cannot see the point in having a set of rules for *ONE* if they are not applied.

You said in one of your earlier post, caveat emptor - based on the exercise I have just undertaken, I think the emptor is being solidly screwed,

I had begun a dialogue with oneworld4u and tried to send her more detailed info - sadly she appears to have been off-line for a while now>

Agree, what their system requirements are do not matter to what was agreed.

I agree, the ticket is a written contract.
If it is not in the conditions of carriage or in the tariff rules it is not binding on the passenger.

I have sent Cathay ticketing office a letter on this and requesting a refund on the 11.1% increase imposed on my 4x DONE4, on the grounds that their published rules do make provision for changes to 1st sectors without the need to recalculate the fare.

I anticipate a protracted exchange of correspondence but it will be interesting to see what their initial explanation will be, even if it is predictable.

Still waiting to hear from oneworld4u

**CX have, on reissuing the tickets, reissued on paper with the explanation that their systems cannot reissue etickets on *one* - simply amazing**

Indeed - simply amazing - in fact, I am speechless!!! CX isn't good at answer questions/complaints like that ... at least in my experience, they have been extremely not responsive. I guess they hope that problem will go away if they persistently not answering any letters/emails.

Good luck and do share your experience ...

Should I infer from one of Henky's earlier posts here that if I'm in the middle of an AONEx issued during the 10% sale, and want to add a segment or two within the normal limits, then this will result not only in the $125 fee - which is fine and pretty explicit, but also in a fare increase on the entire ticket equal to the 10% discount? In effect, they will cancel the discount? Further, if the fare in the country of origin changed after May 1 they will whack me for that increase too?

whmere you should be OK.

Issue is when trying to change the first flight, which whilst it appears OK under the OWE rules, appears to be against IATA/GDS rule and requreis reticketing

No. Once you have started your journey you are fine . The only issue could be if your wanted to add a continent

Dave

Great, thanks Dave. Not adding continents, just flights within the normal allowances. BA did try to whack me for the 10% last week but it was before my first intercontinental flight. They said if I waited until I had started they 'couldn't guarantee there won't still be a fare difference' which I interpreted as perhaps being a rule change I wasn't aware of. From what I've learned here it looks like being more an attempt to blag me 800 quid I didn't need to pay.

I'll call them again today and let you know if they contradict you.

Guess what? BA charged me a 3 pound fare difference (in addition to the reissue fee and tax). Seems bizarre but it's a distinct improvement on the 800 they tried to charge last week - perhaps it's their way of collecting a service fee. They insisted it was a fare difference though.

iiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Thanks Bukhara, that explains it. There's more wierdness going on now but I'll start a new thread for that.

Cathay reply
 

After waiting a few weeks I got this reply today from CX:

Thank you for your comment.

Cathay Pacific follows IATA general rules in fare application. Since your ticket was reissued after the promotion period, "Passenger Air Tariff" General Rule applies and is published as follows:

"In the event of voluntary change to the originating flight, the fares and charges for the passenger's journey shall be recalculated in accordance with the fares and charges in effect on the date on which the change is made and is reflected on the ticket."

We regret if you were not aware of the above fare rule and should you have further enquiries with regard to your ticket, please kindly contact respective travel agent or our worldwide reservations who shall be able to assist you.

We thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention, and as always, we look forward to being of service to you soon.

They have missed the point completely regarding the Oneworld rules and merely parroted out the IATA regulation line.

To be honest, I didn't expect anything better for the 1st round of correspondence from CX.

I will now try and get them to focus on the specific issue.

IATA ticketing rules applies to all international tickets irrespective of fare rules.@:-) CX is correct.

To the best of my knowledge, IATA is nothing more than a trade organization comprising most of the worlds airlines. IATA specifically states on their website that they do not involve themselves with passenger issues.

What would be good to find out is just where do so-called IATA regulations obtain their "force of law" from? And just how do IATA regulations bind passengers?

Seems to me that the ticketing regulations are nothing more than internal guidelines for members and travel agents. They are certainly not freely available to the public, unless you want to splash out on US$119 for a Book and CD-ROM.

Jay pee:

I just got finished changing the date of my first segment on an AONE4. The agent "re-validated" the ticket and sent me a new e-ticket. There was no "recalculation of the fare." I purchased the ticket during the 10% off period.

Several years ago I changed the date on a previous STAR 4 (UA) ex BKK. The ticket was "re-validated" and I did not have to pay the new higher fare. It was NOT re -issued. Someone is way off base.

Just an aside. CX is a difficult airline to purchase a RTW ticket from. Last year I purchased a RTW ticket from CX JNB. I refunded the ticket after CX JNB refused to disclose the tax break down of the ticket. The taxes charged were much higher than usual. ( $700-$900 more than a previous ticket) I had AA issue and identical ticket that was $800. less that CX charged. I was fortunate there was no refund charge in the rules at that time. I find that the overseas CX offices are difficult to do business with. I will never attempt to ticket with CX ever again.

Where does your journey begin?

Sadly for us our DONE4 journey begins in HKG with CX as first carrier.

And to rub salt into the wound they have reissued on paper.

Dealing with CX is like dealing with a pre-programmed robot and the TA is too scared to take them on.