AOWE5 ex-JNB
 

after so many minimal mileage OWE in business trips, finally i have time to do one enjoyable OWE trip.
i plan to do a AOWE5 ex=JNB

so far i had not been to africa or S.A., so i want to spend some time there. so the goals are to max mile and also enjoy the trip, plus those criteria we have discussed in all these threads in this forum. (quality is as important as mileage, both in plane cabin and city). please comment on the cities as well, i plan to spend about 2 days in each 'worthwhile city'

here is my itin, i would appreciate your valuable comments.

here is my first draft (i will update this itin as i receive comments)

version 1.0
1. JNB-LHR-DXB(o)-LHR-HEL-LHR-HKG(o)
2. HKG-NRT-HKG(o)
3. HKG-DPS-HKG(o)
4. HKG-JFK-LAX(o)
5. LAX-DFW-SJU-DFW-LAX
6. LAX-SCL-IPC(o)-SCL-Quito(o)-SCL-LAX-LHR-xxx(cpt or mauritius or ??)
7. xxx-LHR-JNB

commentss:
1. Helsinki seems to be the best mileage run allowed after DXB, my alternative is LHR-DXB-Riyadh-DXB-LHR (more enjoyable as it is on CX), i am open to any suggestions. the other options ARN, Barcelona and BUD
2. for intra-asia flights. these r sidetrips as i am now based in HKG. NRT becasue of the real F seats, and i am not that keen to go to India(visa), Pakistan(war)
6. i am thinking about Quito because of Galapagos, again, welcome any suggestion for the 2nd SA destination
7. i am not sure about africa rules, please tell me if it will work, what are the routes available in Africa for ex-JNB fare?

thanks

[This message has been edited by pegasus8228 (edited 12-09-2001).]

revised after darren's suggestion dec/10:
JNB-VFA-jnb-HKG-NRT-HKG-BOM-HKG-jfk-LAX-SXM-jfk-mia-dfw-LAX-scl-IPC-scl-UIO-scl-lax-lhr-DXB-lhr-ARN-lhr-CPT-JNB
about 75k base miles, (only CAPITAL letters are stopover, lower cases r transit/less than 24 hours)

in NA, i actually like to take the JFK-YVR in CX, instead of lax-sxm for the transcont. teh alternative is: jfk-LAX-dfw-YVR-jfk-dfw-lax, too bad there is no direct flight YVR-LAX
in europe, MCT is the longest run other than middle east, i beleive. but i might just go to ARN due to visa problem

[This message has been edited by pegasus8228 (edited 12-09-2001).]

JNB-cpt-lhr-dxb-lhr-HEL-lhr-LAX-SXM-jfk-YVR-dfw-LAX-dfw-scl-UIO-scl-IPC-scl-jfk-HKG-NRT-HKG-CTS-HKG-jnb-VFA-JNB

COMMENTS APPRECIATED


[This message has been edited by pegasus8228 (edited 12-15-2001).]

Looks Good to me, I've been busy planing my trip too and here are some things I found

1. Your LAX-DFW-SJU can be done with one flight number therefore you will only use one of your NA flights http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif (stops in MIA), a better one is from LAX-SXM, stops in MIA & SJU (Thanks Bers~!)

2. I'm not sure what (o) means (I think a place you want to stop and check out, I didn't think it would be a land sector because of the LHR-DXB(O)-LHR seems kinda far)

3. I wanted to go to The Galapagos also and did some looking into it and found that it costs US330 to fly round trip to the islands from UIO and another 100 bucks to enter the park above the cost of Cruses, Tours, Food and such, I decided not to go because it's too much $$ and I get sea sick hehehe for my SA stops I picked IPC, CCS, RIO. Oh yeah they had some cheap 'Learn Spanish' classes in the Galapagos, tell me if you want links (I decided to spend 2 MO's in Costa Rica learning it before I go to SA)

hope this helps, but remember I'm new to OW too (look for my Itin posted in a little while)

------------------
Thank you for your TIME!!
Eric!
P.L.U.R.
Outer Space Awaits Our Presents All Eternity Is Our Playground…

Pegasus, you have a lot of problems here.

You can't transit twice through Europe if you touch SA. So you can do one of the following...

Afr-Asia-NA-SA-NA-Europe-Africa
Afr-Europe-NA-SA-NA-Asia-Africa

Also, you need to have a transit without stopover between NA and SA either on the front or the end of South America.

BA only runs a non-stop to MRU now.

Your valid stops in Africa are numerous, but would include CPT, JNB, VFA, WDH, HRE, and many more. Look on BA's website for a list. Should be on the SA site.

Example valid routing would be....
JNB-HKG-NRT-HKG-DPS-HKG-JFK-LAX-DFW-
SJU-DFW-LAX-SCL-IPC-SCL-UIO-SCL-LAX-
LHR-HEL-LHR-DXB-LHR-CPT-JNB


[This message has been edited by Darren (edited 12-09-2001).]

thanks my friends http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Ravekid:
1. if LAX---SJU is one flight, and this is not counted as "trnas-continental", this would be the longest run in N.A no one has discovered before! hmm, if this is true, let's not alert the airlines.
2. yes, i mean stopover (maybe a 12 hr hop into town in some cases) by "o".
3. i know galapagos is quite expensive, and there is also the cost of joining boat cruise to tour around the islands, i suppose. i am not sure if it works out, but having UIO leaves me an option of doing so

darren
my last transit out of S.A is SCL-LAX(x)-LHR-Africa. so i suppose i am ok with the inter-continental regaring the americas, rite?

the real problem is as you said, no more than 2 europe arrive once S Africa is touched, this would mean the JNB-HKG flight is inevitable? (since there is no way to go to africa from the americas on OW

suppose i take the jnb-hkg, then how does one hop inside africa? there are 4 segments available there.

it seems to me that the Rand benefit is not so good if one can only adds JNB as a destination (not more miles due to the europe restriction, nor more destination)...

and, please comment on if these destinations are good to visit, if there is good hotel or good deal on hotel, etc.

SJU is on the list, so LAX-SJU is considered a transcon. The longest is actually LAX-SXM, though there is no return flight and it is in biz. Well, for that matter, so is SJU.

Yeh, if you transit LAX, then you are fine.

You can hop inside Africa on the BA affiliates. Comair, for example.

If you are in JNB, you will get out or in via HKG, LON, or SYD.

As far as the in and out of Europe thing, BA has done something stupid. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact. They have removed MRU, NBO, and SEZ from the list of places that you can re-transit through London to get to or from. Basically, they have effectively removed them from possible places that you can visit, if a tariffs robot goes strictly by the rules. I think you should be able to talk to them and get them to accept logical thinking, though it is not a certainty at this point.

i had revised my itin according darren's suggestion.

now still a couple Q to confirm:
1. JNB-VFA-jnb(x)-HKG should be fine, since 2nd JNB is transit, not stopover
2. the old OWE rule said, no 2 'o' if origin is among the 4 Southern African countries.
however the new (rule) wording is more ambigous, it seems to allow interpretation as "no transit via lon/mad for journeys intra- these 4 countries". i.e. lhr-lagos-lhr-cpt is allowed, or MRU/NBO/SEZ. . but lhr-cpt-lhr-jnb is NOT allowed. anyone has such experiences/insight/comment?
3. now SXM is not in the forbidden list, so i can possibly get away with both jfk-yvr and lax-sxm...well, will try my luck http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif). i saw F in CX trip-planner in this flight. but strange that it is a one-way flight. did i miss something?

[This message has been edited by pegasus8228 (edited 12-09-2001).]

1. Technically no. But I think you might be able to convince them to do it since you have no other alternative.

2. *2 permitted in Europe to/from/via ghana/nigeria. 1 must be a transit without stopover between Ghana/Nigeria and another continent.*

Otherwise the rule is clear that there is only one continental arrival and departure.

What you could *possibly* do is lax-lon-los-lon-cpt, if you didn't stopover in London. But you would run into a situation that you would lose all your stopovers and segments in Europe in order to stop in Lagos or Accra. Maybe I am not seeing it, but I still don't see how you can go to MRU, SEZ, DAR or NBO anymore.

3. It isn't a one way flight. It is a flight with three transits that only retains a single flight number in one direction. There are many, many of them.

darren
thanks! is what you said based on AA's interpretation? or have you tried other airlines as well?

----

this is from fewmiles' site

TO/FROM/VIA AFRICA (EXCEPT NAMIBIA/
SOUTH AFRICA/ZAMBIA/ZIMBABWE)
2 PERMITTED IN EUROPE. 1 MUST BE A
TRANSIT WITHOUT STOPOVER BETWEEN
AFRICA AND ANOTHER CONTINENT.

so hypothetically (say if the oringin is asia, might not be relevant to my proposed itin) one can do
asia-lhr-(4 in EUR)-lhr-MRU-lhr(x)-LOS-lhr-america
OR, MRU-lhr-LOS-lhr----R.T.W.---lhr-MRU

is this legitimate?


--------------------
now look at the old version, prior 5/2001, also from fewmiles' site
EXCEPTION 3-- /APPLICABLE TO JOURNEYS ORIGINATING IN AFRICA EXCEPT SOUTH AFRICA
AND ZIMBABWE/ TWO INTERCONTINENTAL ARRIVALS AND TWO INTERCONTINENTAL DEPARTURES
ARE PERMITTED IN EUROPE. ONE OF THE INTERCONTINENTAL ARRIVALS/ DEPARTURES MUST
BE A TRANSFER /WITHOUT STOPOVER/ IN LONDON OR MADRID ENROUTE BETWEEN AFRICA AND
ASIA/AUSTRALIA/NORTH AMERICA/SOUTH AMERICA.

the difference in wording is that the old version emphasize "oringinating", while the new version is simply a list of the 4 countries.
there could be 2 interpretations.
1. 'bad one': once you touched one of these 4 countries, you can't have 2 LHR-transit. but then you cannot get out of these countries to the rest of africa at all, since there is no such flight in OW without using LON/MAD.
2. "more reasonable one" (perhaps my wishful thinking): you cannot use LHR to go within these 4 countries, because you can do it with Comair.
so if you want to go from JNB to SEZ, it is traveling outside these countries (say SEZ/MRU), you can use LHR as transit.

the first interpertation basically divides the african continent into 2 disjoint continents. one is called the Comair continent, with 4 countries. the second is "rest of Africa" where LON?MAD serve as the 'virtual' hub

is there other way to go intra-africa?

i know eventually it is up to the airline staff's interpertation. but if you are saying this is what AA says, i should probably start with other airlines



[This message has been edited by pegasus8228 (edited 12-10-2001).]

Pegasus, what you are saying is correct. In fact, I am on a trip that does that. But the wording has been changed beyond what Fewmiles' site says, and it needs updating. I had a new copy printed on Friday when I was in STL, in order to get a current list of the "transcon" cities. Needless to say, I also noticed this disturbing change. There are a few other changes here and there, such as waiving the minimum stay for biz and first trips originating from HKG, but IMO they are pretty minor.

With the new BA codeshare partners in Africa is it possible to do something like: LHR-NBO-HRE-JNB-LUN-NBO-SEZ-LHR?

I have an even more fundamental problem. If you originate JNB how do you access any Comair destination since the only way out of these destinations (with the exception of CPT) is back to JNB and the rules clearly state that while backtracking is permitted, travel via the point of origin is not permitted.

Hauteboy, no. You can only use the BA franchise partners, and not all the codeshares. In fact, to complicate things more, there are flights that are listed under a BA flight number, operated by a BA franchise, but flown on a non-franchise carrier. For example NBO-HRE BA8669. It is a BA number, but operated by AirKenya under Regional Air. Regional Air is a franchise, but Air Kenya isn't, so you can not use this flight.

Does anyone here have any experience on the JNB quagmire?

i believe jnb-transit is possible.
in the very past (2 years ago), i have inquired about HKG as a transit while originating from HKG, and the answer is positive. but i never really took up the challenge myself http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Darren, pegasus, here's (not very favorable)imput from AA's RTW desk from someone very knowledgeable about African routings and the current rules.

1. Originating JNB. No backtracking via JNB. The only available African destinations from JNB therefore are CPT and HRE (and you must continue on to LHR from there). In effect you get to use only 1 of your 4 segments.

2. No backtracking through LHR from southern Africa to any African destination. (Includes Ghana and Nigeria).

3.Regional Air flights operated by Air Kenya ARE permitted so you could do JNB-HRE-NB0-SEZ-LHR.

As I see it that's it. No Comair destinations other than CPT or HRE and no way to get to MRU or any of the rest of southern or west Africa. You can gain a little flexibility by originating CPT but not much.

I still don't think #3 is correct. I tried to make this booking from British Airways (who would have the final say, imo) and it was shot down. Codeshares are allowed, but only by eligible carriers. Air Kenya is not a franchise of BA, therefore it is not an eligible carrier. What you can do is a surface sector to a place that you can go back to the alliance carriers. For instance, LHR-SEZ-NBO//HRE-JNB. You also don't need to start and end in the same city, only the same country. So doing something like PLZ-JNB-HKG...LHR-HRE-JNB-CPT-JNB would be fine. Four sectors, four cities.

Darren:

As usual BA is incorrect and cant follow their own rules.

Regional Air (including flights operated by KQ) is allowed.

so this is a legitimate routing?

jnb-hre-nrb-sez-lhr-DXB-lhr-arn-lhr-LAX-SXM-dfw-jfk-YVR-dfw-LAX-scl-IPC-scl-UIO-scl-jfk-HKG-NRT-HKG-CTS-HKG-jnb

strange that one can go use NA as transit pt to SA but cannot use Europe (2nd time) to get to Africa.
what this means is one can never go africa-europe-asia-.....as there is no OW flight to reach Africa from the Americas

[This message has been edited by pegasus8228 (edited 12-12-2001).]

Trvlguru, I know you know the rules backwards and forwards. In fact, I know you know them well enough to take your word for it. Assuming you are correct, BA was indeed wrong. And this wasn't from an agent, this was from tariffs. Specifically, I tried to do wdh-jnb-hre-nbo-mru-lon, and pay a segment charge at the end to go back to wdh.

Pegasus, you can start in Accra or Lagos and go Africa-Europe-Asia



[This message has been edited by Darren (edited 12-12-2001).]

My head hurts..... so which of BA's carriers are we allowed to use in Africa? Can I use the BA coded flight from Lusaka to NBO?

rich

To make it more confusing, I just had two tickets issued by AA with the routing JNB-HRE-NBO-SZE-LHR. Will I be denied boarding at HRE?

seems one can go JNB-HRE-NBO, or JNB-LUN-NBO.
on BA's site it said "operated by BA" in the main page !!!
(although the flight # is in the 8000's, and if u click into the flight icon, it said regional air operated by kenyan air)

dbala, when r u flying? i believe since u have your ticket already, u sd be fine.
let us know what happened.
if u call AA to verify, they might reverse the decision http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
http://www.british-airways.com/regio...ir/index.shtml
it says Regional and AirKenya are basically the same company, so our Guru is right on

also, do u have any suggestion on good routes for teh africa segments?
i am thking: JNB-HRE-NBO-SEZ-LHR, any improvement on such route?

darren, true, but for me the rand fare is the real incentive of going to africa


[This message has been edited by pegasus8228 (edited 12-12-2001).]

Hi Pegasus 8228

I was originally planning to fly in Feb and had a routing of JNB-HRE-surface-NBO-SZE-NBO-MRU-LHR. The NBO-MRU flight got cancelled and I got it reissued. I would now fly in April starting a five continent First class trip from JNB. You should also explore buying a ticket using Aire Zambia or Air Mauritius, and fly from either HRE-MRU or SZE-MRU.

thx, drbala.

i understand that tkts intr-africa r probably quite cheap with Air Zambia.
but there are only 2 flights per week to MRU/SEZ, so i think i will probably just plan on CPT/JNB/VFA this time.
unless you tell me HRE/NBO is some very interesting place to visit http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif)

Sorry for the beginner's question, but if I buy RTW ex-CPT departing next May now in the States by AA, would I be guranteed of the price should my itinerary chance before the departure? It would be First class. Its that not just exact timing but also the confusng aspects of southern/eastern African journeys keep me worried.

My proposed itinerary:
CPT-JNBx-HRE-NBO-SEZ-surface-JNBx-LHRx-BKK-SIN-HKG-TPE-NRT-DFW-GDL-DFWx-LGA/JFK-SXM-JFK-BGI-LHR-IST-LHR-HEL-LHR-CPT.

surface SEZ-JNB would be taken by SA or Air
Seychelles.

Any comments and suggestions would be most
appreciated.


[This message has been edited by Kaoru Kanetaka (edited 12-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Kaoru Kanetaka (edited 12-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Kaoru Kanetaka (edited 12-14-2001).]

is there any particular reason to go 'surface', there is BA flight direct from SEZ-LHR (also MRU-LHR, which u can buy a 1-way SEZ-MRU, i suppose)

darren also said that u cannot transit via LHR twice, i.e. u have to go JNB-HKG eastward if u want to pass europe later

Although I am not sure how to read where you are stopping in Africa I think you may violate the following rules:

"1 INTL DEPARTURE AND 1 INTL ARRIVAL FROM/TO THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN PERMITTED"

You seem to arrive in South Africa twice although one is surface so who knows how they will apply the rule.

"MAXIMUM 2 STOPOVERS PERMITTED IN THE CONTINENT OF ORIGIN."

As i said I am not sure where you are actually stopping so not sure if you violate this one.

Also I believe that Darren is correct and South Africa originations do not permit to arrivals into Europe.

rich

Just wanted to give all of you a complete copy of BA Affiliates that can be used with OWE as taken from Sabre.

BRITISH AIRWAYS -
BRITISH ASIA
BRITISH MEDITERRANEAN
BRITISH REGIONAL AIRLINES
INCLUDING FLIGHTS OPERATED
BY BD COMMUTER
BRYMON AIRWAYS
CITYFLYER EXPRESS
COMAIR
DEUTSCHE BA /DI/
INCLUDING FLIGHTS OPERATED
BY WDL
GB AIRWAYS
LOGANAIR
MAERSK AIR LTD
NATIONAL JET ITALIA (NJI)
(XLD 11/12/01)
OPERATED BY BRITISH WORLD
REGIONAL AIR (EFF 07JUN01)
INCLUDING FLIGHTS OPERATED
BY KQ
SUN-AIR
ZAMBIAN AIRWAYS (EFF 1/15/01)
OPERATED UNDER BA CODE

Also, they used to allow Africa from Europe round-trip but not anymore. Hopefully they won't change the NA to SA option.

Thank you very much, Pegasus and Richland.
I am currently buried with five different tickets of all sorts and I need to really sit down and cool my head and open a world atlas to figure this out. Will appreciate your insights in the near future very much.

in the mean time, happy holidays. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

seems ex-CPT is a better choice, if one want to use JNB as a later transit point

mine will be
CPT-jnb-lhr-dxb-lhr-IST-lhr-LAX-SXM-jfk-YVR-dfw-LAX-dfw-scl-UIO-scl-IPC-scl-jfk-HKG-NRT-HKG-CTS-HKG-jnb-VFA-jnb-CPT

Pegasus8228
That is a very good suggestion and solves my dilemma of two JNB transfers

Aren't you still violating:

"1 INTL DEPARTURE AND 1 INTL ARRIVAL FROM/TO THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN PERMITTED" ?

perhaps, i would jsut cross my fingers http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
since they also viewed canada as us regarding this rule,
one could apply similar logic about south africa and zimbabwe. again, i suppose it depends on how they interpret it.

Good point Hagabard
I may do HRE-VFA by own arrangements and do VFA-JNB-CPT-JNB

How did you get to HKG to HRE without using your one allowed arrival to country of origin. If you've done HKG-JNB you can't do VFA-JNB

drbala,
i guess yours is still ex-ZA.
so it could be cpt-jnb-vfa(--)hre-nbo-sez-lhr...asia/oz-jnb-cpt. the only thing you have to worry is #segments. (vfa-hre cost $94)

but it seems nothing works if one wants to go cpt-lhr or jnb-lhr, because i will be entering jnb from hkg/syd on the return.
so it forces me to take the NBO detour if i want to go to VFA

the schedule makes it quite difficult if i want to take your routing (i have to stay oevrnight at NBO/HRE if going to SEZ, is it safe/convenient/worthwhile?)
alternative, i thot about XXX-lhr(x)-los-lhr,

[- 2 PERMITTED IN EUROPE TO/FROM/VIA GHANA/NIGERIA. 1 MUST BE A TRANSIT WITHOUT STOPOVER BETWEEN GHANA/NIGERIA AND ANOTHER CONTINENT.]

so the only way to have non-ZA africa segment is one of the following options
1. jnb-vfa ($100) hre-nbo-(sez)-lhr-...TC1+TC3...hkg/syd-jnb
2. jnb-vfa/windhoek ($5-700)-acc/los-lhr(x)-TC1+TC3-europe-jnb

[This message has been edited by pegasus8228 (edited 12-25-2001).]

I was planning JNB-HKG-JFK-LHR=SEZ-NBO-HRE-VFA-JNB

Just be careful with your stopovers, as you only get two. I can only assume that you are staying in SEZ, and you will have to count HRE/VFA as your second. I assume that these are your intended stops, but you could run into a problem in Nairobi because the NBO-HRE flight is only once a week (friday).

there is also a NBO-(LUNx)-HRE on TUE.
alternative, if you reverse the direction of travel, you will stay overnight at NBO (her-nbo-sez) but that is not a stopover since it is <24 hours

i am thinking of taking the acc/los option but not sure how to get there economically and safely. i prefer this way because
1. i can do ZA-los/acc-lhr(x)-americas-asia-europe-ZA, and i don't have to hurry through europe trip before going to the americas(more evenly split of the journey as i am based in HKG now)
2. i can stop by LHR twice (a bit more miles as well), i.e. no need to take the hkg-jnb option

Isn't the rule that it's not a stop-over if less than 24 hours or if you take the next available flight (even if more than 24 hours)? If so, you could get a "free" stop in NBO thanks to the infrequent flights.