RTW from NRT trick over?
 

With appreciation to many helpful folks here who showed me how to do this, I purchased in December a RTW business class originating from Tokyo for approx Yen 713,000 (about USD 6,000): NRT - LAX - DFW - JFK - LHR - HKG NRT. I live in Hong Kong and take a trip like this several times per year. I paid for it with my HK based AMEX.

Today I booked: NRT - ORD - DFW - JFK - LHR - AMS - HKG - NRT for the same price and I received an email with my record locator number, so all good. When going to the AA website to select my seats I get a message to contact my travel agent or the AA desk, and I could not select my seats (although when logging into CX to select my seats for the CX leg (AMS - HKG), I was able to select seats).

I spoke to the AA "around the world desk" (what they call it) just now and was told that i cannot purchase the ticket unless I have a Tokyo based credit card, and that if I wanted to keep these reservations he would need to send this to the fare department for repricing, and the fee will be approximately HKD 79,360 (USD 10,000), with the newly priced ticket ready for purchase in 5 hours. Tough luck. I was lucky in Jan.

As I have already booked meetings I will go ahead with this ticket, but does anyone here have any experience with this loophole ending? The man at the desk explained to me that the website is very inconsistent and sometimes lets people do this and sometimes not. Anyone have a similar experience?

Another question, when using the oneworld on-line to originate from NRT rather than Hong Kong (as I used to do before I was shown the trick), the carrier on the first leg of my trips seems to be the ticket issuing carrier for the whole trip. So, when I fly NRT - LAX I have purchased a ticket from AA. If I flew from NRT to LHR I assume the ticket is issued by BA. Now my question: for most trips I can go either East or West provided I hit all my cities. Does anyone know if the chance of oneworld raising the issue of not having a Japan credit card vary from airline to airline. Ie, if I flew NRT - LAX with the first leg on Japan Airlines rather than AA, or decided to go NRT - LHR on BA, would this same issue be raised. While the rule is a one world rule, perhaps different airlines enforce it differently.

Any insights here, are the fun times over?

Anyone know about getting a Japan issued credit card payable in JPY? I will contact AMEX and see if they can do this for me, but I suspect I will need to show Japan residency to get one.

Any one else having this problem?

Update: I just tried booking and buying a similar itinerary to see what would happen: NRT LAX DFW JFK LHR AMS HKG NRT but this time departing from NRT on a JAL flight to LAX rather than an AA flight. I was able to process this but then see at the bottom of my confirmation email "For changes to your booking please contact your ticketing carrier. You will receive your e-ticket from American Airlines".

I login to AA with the record locator number and see the same" contact reservations" . So, Japan Airlines uses AA to issue tickets. I answered half the above question. Does anyone know about who issues tickets for a BA flight out of NRT.

I was comfortable doing this as if the ticket was issued, I could cancel the above ticket; in this case I will just cancel this booking and take my first booking repriced 40% more.

There is nothing in the fare rules regarding payment method (such as requiring any credit card used to be issued in the country of origin)

What is in the fare rules is the following:
AA's agent in Cape Town (mindpearl) has for while required South Africa credit card for itineraries starting there. I believe yours is the first report of AA now requiring this for ex-Japan itineraries.

The online tool does not enquire where you are located, and seems to just assume you are in the country of origin.

As for online bookings that start with BA, from South Africa at least BA does not ask where you are located and accepts non-South African credit cards. There has been confirmation of this just today (see today's post by Timbuktu in this thread - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/onewo...l#post26301562)
I would expect this to be the same from other points of origin, such as Japan.

RTW from NRT trick over?
 

I did it too in F but with my travel agent, price was in JPY and this is what he pays to IATA converted of course to Euro, I paid to him in Euro.

Thinking out loud, if this is a policy that AA is implementing unilaterally - and I for one expect zero oversight from Oneworld on this - then it seems to me that assembling a list of knowledgeable and competent local travel agents in the origination cities, similar to what JonNYC did in Joburg, might be advisable. The TAs would comprise a "laundry" of sorts - we pay the TAs remotely, they pay the airlines locally.

This would also form a work-around for the online tool's many bugs. For those that followed Jon's attempts to get a DONEx issued ex-South Africa using QR stock, this was something the TA he found was able and willing to do, while of course the online tool merely had a predictable cerebral event.

People might need to volunteer to be guinea pigs in this, and I'd discourage open advertisements of who you find, so contacts might best be shared using email or PMs on FT.

There was a time when OW airlines strictly (?) enforced the rule that the price of an rtw ticket must be the higher of the place it originates and the place it was being purchased, and everyone understood that to mean that the place of purchase was where the purchaser was standing, credit-card address aside.

So it was a great pleasure when airlines began ignoring that rule - perhaps in reaction to local laws in Canada and the EU. Now it's coming back.

"In the day" the way to comply with the rule was to find a TA in the origination country willing and able to sell you the ticket, and there was much discussion here about favorite TAs at favorite starting locations. The TA is your agent - "you" in essence, and there was seldom if ever a problem with the process.

Sounds like it's back to that.

Hello everyone, I own Trans-Puff-Africa Travel, based in Mozambique. I can help you with ex-Mozambique xONEx tickets at prices on par with South Africa. You just need to wire me the full ticket price first ;)

===

Should be ok if the TA accepts credit cards; if not it would make for a bothering few days before the ticket is issued.

I've never understood it to mean that. I've always understood it to mean the place ('office') from which the ticket is issued. If I call the AA RTW desk, it's issued in the U.S. at the U.S. price (because that's where the AA RTW desk is physically located). If I call AA in Japan, it's issued in Japan (at the Japanese price). Neither of them has a clue where I am when I call them.

Of late, there have been stories about AA insisting that the credit card used (if you call Japan) have a Japanese address. The suggested way around that was to call AA Tokyo when they were closed, which routes you to some ticketing desk somewhere else. That's what I did for our last ticket. The agent asked if the credit card had a Japanese address. I said no ..... and we just carried on from there. In the event, they screwed it up by issuing only my ticket and not Mrs. tt7's so I had to call again to get her ticket issued.

It's unclear to me why AA cares about the credit card address. In the past, when we've managed to do tickets using the online tool, the credit card address was never an issue. However, using the tool has become harder and harder because of the various 'problems' with it (discussed in other threads).

As to the ticketing carrier, my understanding has always been that it's the marketing carrier of the first leg ....with some exceptions, one being that AA issues tickets on behalf of JL (or at least they used to and, by the sound of it, still do). If the first leg is on BA, then BA would issue the ticket though I seem to recall there being some issue with having to call them to give them the card number.

Clearly, if you can get the online tool to work, that's the easiest approach. Given its problems (e.g., it refuses to display any QF flights between Oz and NZ even though QF has multiple flights a day from/to multiple locations) that's not always possible. There appears to be no way to contact oneworld to get these issues resolved - the online tool appears to be the orphan stepchild for which nobody accepts responsibility.

I can confirm that this is what I did in June 2015 when booking a DONE3 ex-TYO. Had AA RTW desk make the booking. They informed me that I had to call AA TYO to pay with a CC with Japanese address. And they put a note of that in the PNR. I followed the advice from another thread of calling TYO after hours - AA TYO ticketing is redirected to the US then (probably Dallas?). The AA agent asked me if the CC had a Japanese address, probably triggered by the PNR note, and it so happened that the line was staticky at that point. I said... yes, my CC is international, there is no problem... "and we just carried on from there." ;)

There is no rule that requires that.

This country of issue requirement is not new for AA. It stemmed from the exKRT fares. In fact I was read a memo about it 2 years ago when I called to change my AB fared KRT RTW.

For those that didn't know, after the KRT rates were increased AB kept the cheap fare filed. You could get it to price if you used AB for the first intercontinental flight. AA issued my ticket without batting an eye. However, when I needed to change it (AB fare was still there) they pulled the "must be priced in USD" memo.

I've mentioned this in several threads. Looks like it's slowly spreading to all the cheap locales.

For clarification, were the tickets issued (you had ticket numbers) and then you saw the message when you viewed the itinerary on AA's web site? How did you pay for the tickets? Did you use the on-line tool, or did you call the AA Tokyo number?

One option that some of used have used in the past was to have AA RTW create and price the itinerary and leave it on hold, then go to the country of origin and purchase the ticket at the airport ticket counter or AAdmiral's Club. (Back in the day of the "Canada Exception," we used to hop over from the U.S. to Canada to do this.) But, if AA is causing problems for already-issued tickets, that may not help, or if AA's pricing desk is adding onerous restrictive notes to the PNR, even the local airport or AC might not issue the ticket.

If that was the case AA would never sell me a US domestic flight as I do not have a credit card with a US address.

Seems to be a made up rule by someone in AA.

It sounds like AA is claiming that I should be paying the AU price if I turned up in person at the AA NRT ticket counter to pay for an ex NRT DONE3 with my AU billed card.

The requirement was specifically for RTW tickets. I was told this requirement by two different RTW desk agents at two different times. If they are making it up they did a pretty good job spreading the lie.

There was an interesting observation made over at TB on AA's ability to do so. http://travelingbetter.vbulletin.net...8195#post78195

In case you can't navigate to that site, here's what the poster said:
What I don't know is if RTW fares are published with ATPCO. I can't log in, but I found this note from 2013 on their website -

So if they're proposing to automate these fares, I'm guessing that means they have them on file, no?

The other two alliances have already had their RTW and circle fares automated in Sabre.

I'm thinking AA just made some internal policy about the CC location and they don't care what anyone thinks. I bet they would fail to mention this policy if you tried to book a ticket that is more expensive than in the US.

Gardyloo, I'm pretty sure RTW fares are published with ATPCO. We can see them in GDS's, including in ExpertFlyer (for those with access). Doesn't that mean the fares must be published?

The question of whether fares can autoprice is different from whether fares are published.

If anyone here has been harmed by AA's policy -- wanted to buy at one price, but AA imposed a rule not present in tariff or fare rules, requiring a particular type of credit card and hence a higher price -- that is grounds for a formal DOT complaint. It would be on-the-record and public, and AA's attorneys would be obliged to respond. I have a template and submission instructions and would be happy to help anyone interested in this. Send me an email or FT PM and I'll send details of what I know about the complaint process.

I would assume so, but this is frankly rather arcane stuff to me, as are terms like SITI/SOTO etc.

I can only speak for myself, but I get a little nervous at the prospect of raising this issue too loudly in the AA apparatus, or any of the alliance's airlines for that matter. Given that the prices for the tickets can vary so substantially from one country to another, I don't know how hard it would be for AA in cahoots with BA (who between them most likely call the shots with Oneworld) just to say, "enough," and just raise prices everywhere, badda bing. Who's to stop them? So my inclination is to find work-arounds rather than pull the lion's whiskers, as it were. Maybe that's chickens**t but it's what I'm thinking.

I wish there were a sticky with recommended TAs who were knowledgeable and experienced in issuing Explorer tickets.

Is there a way to compile a list of FT members (working as TAs) who are either working in places like Japan and South Africa, or who have colleagues in those locations who are able/willing to issue such tickets?:confused:

My thoughts too.

As many FTs mentioned before,
for ex-JPN explorer tickets, call or mail to CX Tokyo ticketing office.
They accept foreign issued credit cards.

I don't think it's a surprise, to AA or BA or any international airline, that fares vary based on point of origin. Fares are set carefully, with an eye to market conditions and competition and customer willingness to pay.

Personally I have not been harmed by this practice. When I have needed to buy RTW tickets, originating outside the US, I have been able to do so. (But of course that was some years ago, and by all indications the current problem is a new development.) If AA tried the tactic on me that is discussed in this thread, I would file the complaint contemplated here. That doesn't mean anyone else has to or wants to.

The risk is what that response says.

Exactly my thoughts.

RTW tickets are a strange thing. The airlines seem to want them to be used, but not too much. Whenever people here have gone "too far" (in the airlines' eyes), the cost has gone dramatically up. When I first started booking RTWs, ex-US fares were 1/3 what they are now. They became very popular, and fares started climbing. Ex-KRT was very popular for a year, and suddenly started being priced in USD. Right now, ex-S.A. is the best deal. I'd really hate to see that option destroyed. There are several ways to work around the issue for now.

But your taking such action is bound to result in some result:

1. The DOT ignores you
2. AA ignores the DOT
3. AA responds by allowing you to use your CC as a one-off
4. AA responds by apologizing and allowing anyone to use any CC
5. Ex-S.A. fares start being priced in USD (at ex-N.A. rates)
6. AA (with BA) responds by adding a rule about CC address or residency

You have vast experience in this area. Which option(s) do you think are most likely? (1) and (2) are probably out, (4) feels unlikely to me, but what do I know? (5) and (6) would be very bad for all of us.

2 is certainly out. Procedural rules oblige AA to answer.

To 1: Whether DOT takes action, and when, is uncertain. Some of the complaints I filed have been pending for well over a year, I believe some as long as two full years. Now, DOT is busy. And since DOT prefers to settle these cases, not litigate them, there can be an odd negotiation -- DOT wants a tough settlement; airline says "what are you going to do about it?"; and they're a bit stuck. This may look like "DOT ignores" the complaint although I don't think that's the best assessment in general.

3 is perfectly common -- airlines often try to buy off complainants with individual benefits on condition of complainant withdrawing a complaint. That's not my game -- I want to get problems fixed for everyone's benefit, not just get one benefit for one person (even myself).

5 is possible. Always an airline's right. No reason why the complainant has to complain about the very best / very lowest fare in the system. A complainant wanting to start in some country that is 5% less than USA would suffice as a matter of law and would still amply demonstrate the problem.

6: I don't know that such a rule is permitted. I'd need to do some legal research, including as to credit card rules, the duties of common carriers, and other sources of authority. My hunch is that it's not permitted or else more airlines would be doing it already and would have done it for years.

Well, aren't we already dealing with de facto fare collusion? The multi-continent fares published by Oneworld, Skyteam, and Star Alliance (as well as the Escapade and other non-alliance products) have to be agreed upon by all the alliance members; unless I'm mistaken this sort of behavior wouldn't be allowed in US domestic markets.

Exactly. We saw it in KRT.


That's true, of course; but airlines have lots of smart people working for them. I'm not going to take any action assuming that they won't figure out what's going on and extrapolate. We already know (based on MRU and KRT) that they are aware of the effects of currency fluctuation on global products. And with the ZAR having been in free fall for five years, I have no interest in sticking it in AA's face.


I've seen non-U.S. credit cards be declined more than once at supermarkets for the reason that they are issued in another country.

The only places that I have ever seen a card not issued locally be declined simply because it wasn't issued locally is where a card reader/ATM is not connected to the global credit network. ie, most ATMs in Japan.

Yes, that makes sense. May have been what I was observing.

Another (more convoluted) example is what AA has been doing with fares/ticketing in Venezuela (VE), where the local currency is highly devalued, foreign currency exchange is state-controlled, and where there is a rather transparent black market for foreign currencies. About 3-4 years ago, AA started by implementing new rules for all fares ex-VE (including xONEx) that required local currency/local billing address CCs to purchase tickets. Plus, tickets could only be payed for in person at a local AA office. This initial rule was put in place to prevent people from making "technical" stop-overs in VE to take advantage of the very convenient (black market) exchange rate. That lasted about 1-2 years, until AA dropped it altogether due to, in part, conflicts with VE government over the massive debt owed to AA (ongoing). At this time, AA does not accept local currency/local billing address CCs for ex-VE tickets anymore — they only accept foreign currency CCs, that is, the exact opposite of the initial rule. In fact, you can only purchase ex-VE tickets by calling AA reservations in US or doing it online on the US site. Local AA offices in VE don't make reservations anymore, the only payments they process in the local currency are mileage ticket taxes/fees for ex-VE reservations strictly made online (and this could very well change too leaving the AA local agents with nothing to do!). Albeit at times vague, AA did include these "evolving" changes in fare rules. There is a lot more to say about the VE example, and it is certainly different and more extreme than the other cases discussed in this thread. My point is that AA aggressively pursued and implemented those fare rule changes even if some were/are illegal. Having experienced the resulting complexity (and at times impossibility) of ticketing ex-VE AA flights, I would agree that perhaps is best, whenever possible, "to find work-arounds rather than pull the lion's whiskers”...