Crazy RTW plan - Doable? Is it against any rules?
 

Hey guys,

Here is the situation:

I was originally planning to book an RTW ticket in J to start in Sydney for 12.9k (with the main focal point being LHR as I will be in Europe for a good seven months on exchange). After playing around with Oneworld's planning tool, it turns out booking RTW out of LHR is much cheaper than booking out of SYD (due to the AUD). I was wondering if it were possible to book a standalone SYD-LHR-SYD in the cheapest discount economy (around 2.8k) and during my time in Europe, book another RTW in J LHR-LHR (around 10.4k AUD), but - and here's the bit I'm not sure about - if that RTW trip could include SYD in it without Qantas telling me that I am not allowed to have two open tickets like that (I'm not too sure what the rules are here).

Reason I ask is my plan is to leave SYD for Europe during August, stay there until mid Feb (travelling around Europe making my own plans in the meanwhile), then going from LHR (on my RTW ticket) through the US and Canada, and then back to Sydney where I will stay for a few months, and then go back to LHR (via a few destinations in Asia) hopefully for the olympics, and then returning on the originally booked SYD-LHR-SYD ticket in economy.

So basically (tentative destinations):
SYD-LHR-own travel plans-LHR-JFK-DCA-ORD-YYZ-DFW-LAS-LAX-SYD (and stay for a few months)-BNE-MEL-HKG-BKK-SIN-FRA-MAD-LHR-LHR-SYD

Red is the original SYD-LHR-SYD, Blue is the RTW

The price would work out to be only 400 more than SYD-LHR-SYD, and it would give me more flexibility in my options (not to mention more SC's too!)

So basically, is it against any rules, whether with Qantas or with Oneworld, to have two open itineraries with the same destinations on both of them? And is it against the rules of RTW to make your own travel plans as well as holding the RTW ticket (I notice it uses up a flight segment if you choose a Surface section)? Also, I assume as I start in LHR (I have never booked with another airline other than Qantas), I will be booking with BA. Will there be any problems/delays regarding points and SC's?

Thanks so much for any help and I hope all that wall of text made sense! Sorry if I am asking stupid questions. I have never booked an RTW before and would prefer not to throw that much money down the drain in the event that they tell me I am violating the rules. I have read the terms and conditions too but would like to double check with the knowledgable members here =)

Thanks again.

I have had three open itineraries at one time. It is a good way to do multiple trips over a long period of time. Why should that be a problem?

Based in Oz, I'll go - say to North America on a xONEx ticket, get a return ticket to Oz, re-start the xONEx ticket, get another return to Oz and so on.

The only problem is keeping up to speed with what you are doing and managing accordingly.

Just remember that each stopover gives opportunities for taking another trip from that stopover point. And, the rules of xONEx allow changes to date/time without penalty.

Great! Thanks for clearing that up. One more question: What is the penalty from either Qantas or OW for extending the 12 month limit on tickets?

$0. They don't penalize you for something you can't do.

Last year I had two oneworld tickets in use at once, and another return ticket.

CBR-SYD-NRT/HND-ITM-NRT-SIN-HKG-JFK-BWI-JFK-DFW-ORD-MCO-DFW-SEA-JFK-CDG-HEL-LHR-DXB-LHR-HKG-NRT-SIN-PER-MEL

Red: DAS13 (issued by QF[AU])
Blue: DONE3 (issued by QF[JP])
Green: return (issued by AA[AU])
no one had any issues with it (other then the confused Japanese immigration agent).

As stated there is no penalty (though there is the potential to reprice the ticket as point to point if the fare rules were not adhered to due to missing sectors -- but historically nobody has reported this to have happened). The ticket becomes worthless on the 366th day, no refund and no way to resurrect the unflown segments.

If you use the online tool to book the ticket, it will be issued by whoever is the marketing carrier of the first segment (with a couple of exceptions - for example, QF does the ticketing for JL, AA does it for RJ). If your first leg is LHR-JFK, it will be ticketed either by AA or BA, depending on whose flight you choose (and note it is the marketing carrier, not the operating carrier so (in theory) if you take a BA codeshare on an AA-metal flight, it will be ticketed by BA). Conventional wisdom is to avoid having BA issue the ticket if at all possible, as they tend to charge punitive fuel fines which others (e.g., AA) do not.

As to problems/delays with points posting, there shouldn't be a problem ..... though having said that, the AA miles never, ever post automatically for the QF legs on my AA-issued xONEx tickets. AA # shows up on the QF boarding pass, no issues with status recognition etc., but the miles never post automatically. No big deal really - just have to keep the boarding passes, follow up etc.

I'm not sure which of these (perhaps all?...) are places you want to go (=stop) versus connecting points on the way to somewhere else. However, if you want to maximize point/SC earning, there may be ways to re-work the places/sequence depending on where you want to get to and in which sequence. As you are presumably interested in QF SC earning, I'm not qualified to help but others (e.g., number_6) certainly are and can offer advice if you think your proposed itinerary is open to tweaking. For example, going LHR-DFW or LHR-LAX rather than LHR-JFK and then working your way back to JFK (assuming New York is a stopping point) would certainly be more miles and SC. I know number_6 has some strong views on DFW versus LAX .... :) (although in the context of coming from Oz, not from LHR) but my knee-jerk is that starting LHR-JFK-DCA-ORD isn't doing much to maximize the points/SC (assuming that is an objective).

I am looking to stop at all the US places and you do provide a good point regarding SCs. I'll amend my itinerary to fly LHR-LAX and work my way to JFK. The only places where I don't care all that much about are CBR, MEL and BNE. As for Asia, I would definitely like to go to at least HKG and BKK. MAD is also expendable.

Edit to Add: Is it better to book the first leg with BA or with AA? Which is easier to deal with? Putting those changes into Oneworld's planner, booking the first leg with AA saves 300GBP. But if they are hard to deal with, is it worth it?

Hmmmm :D

Well... I do care about MEL but thats a cheap ticket (but I am happy to include it on the ticket). CBR and BNE I really do not care about though haha.

Edit: Whoops CBR isn't even in this itinerary. It was in a previous one I was trying. My bad.

AA has a dedicated RTW desk (phone number is 1-800-247-3247) which is widely regarded to be the best there is. Although occasional reports of spotty service or 'new' people, they know their stuff. I'm not even sure any of the other OW airlines have an equivalent, dedicated group. Booking with AA versus BA is a no-brainer - obviously as an "AA person" I'm biased but I think you'd find most people around here would suggest AA over BA.

I think you'd find having the ticket issued by AA will save quite a lot in terms of fuel surcharges tacked onto the ticket cost (look for "YQ" in the "taxes" breakout if booking online.) It's not really a tax but an additional payment to the operating carrier. BA and QF tend to levy much higher fuel surcharges than some other OW operators.

Since you indicate you'll be traveling around Europe prior to traveling to North America, you might also want to consider originating somewhere besides the UK. Depending on currency exchange rates, a DONE4 originating somewhere in the Euro zone won't carry a terribly different base rate than one originating in the UK. However, by originating someplace besides LHR you'll avoid the very high premium-cabin UK Airline Passenger Duty levied on departures from UK airports. In the case of a business class flight from, say, LHR to the USA or Canada, the APD is £120.

You could, for example, depart from Madrid on Iberia's new nonstop to LAX, use the AA codeshare designation on it, and end up paying roughly US$500 less in taxes and fees on just that one flight. It's definitely worth using Skype or some such to phone the AA RTW desk and have them put the ticket together rather than using the online tool, since they can book it using AA flight numbers, thereby avoiding Iberia's equally high fuel surcharges. But even if they pass IB's fuel fine through, it's still cheaper - net - than starting in the UK and paying the APD.

I strongly agree that booking with AA versus BA is a no-brainer.

But: YMMV. I just booked a DONE5 and BA was cheaper than AA. No idea why.

I try to always issue my tickets through AA even if they are not one of the carriers.
If you want to do a date change and ring up QF (maybe BA and CX as well) they will charge you upwards of $50 above and beyond any change penalty for the inconvenience. AA only charge whatever is indicated in the fare rules - in the case of an xONEx $0

Hmmm I assume for Qantas that's the phone processing fee they charge for doing anything. I guess I'll go with American. Will the ticket be issued by AA even if I fly AA codeshare on BA metal for the first segment?

Also, when I called the AA RTW desk, the lady told me the cancellation fee was 5% of the fare (for business) + the segments already flown. Wouldn't it be cheaper if I just let the ticket run out in the end? (If I do want to cancel that is)

Yes. It will be issued by AA.

Yes - 5% is correct (see the rules here, if you haven't seen them already - rule 16 specifies cancellation fees)
I can't say whether just not showing up for any remaining segments would be cheaper than cancelling. But I expect that if you have only a few segments left, that would be the case

I agree. Instead of flying to LHR on your separate ticket, you might want to consider Riyadh (RUH) which, depending on exchange rates, is normally the cheapest place to begin a RTW. It can save thousands over the same ticket begun at LHR. Make the first and final legs RUH-LHR/LHR-RUH on BA, then continue as you have it making a couple of changes because of the two extra segments.

I agree, but IMHO it might be better to consider AMM instead of RUH
- no visa problems
- probably easier to get to from SYD than RUH
- good place to spend a few days (Mrs P and I hired a car from the airport back in '09 - Dead Sea, Crusader castle, Petra, Roman ruins at Jerash)
- a DONE4 ex-AMM only costs ~USD400 more than ex-RUH
- can start with an RJ flight AMM-LHR ; thus avoiding starting with BA and paying its high fuel fines

Of course, if the OP really wants to get the cheapest DONE4 - then s/he should start from KRT!!

Thanks for all the help guys. So at the moment, my plan looks a little like this.

FRA-xDFW-SFO-LAS-LAX-YYZ-ORD-JFK-SYD-NRT-BKK-HKG-SIN-LHR-DXB-xLHR-FRA (then purchase a one-way back to LHR)

I do have a few problems though. It lets me fly DXB-FRA via LHR no problem, (in effect violating both the 2 stopovers in Origin rule and also the flying return between the same city pair rule), but it counts DFW-SFO as 1st of the 6 NA segments?

Reason I ask is I am trying to book one more segment into NA. I know I can buy extra segments at 200GBP but am just trying to get clarification here. Perhaps there is an email address for RTW Desk at AA? I assume if I do add a segment I have to email them to get a quote.

Also, peaking of the AA RTW desk, the lady who answered last time told me I could not book an open-ended ticket even though theres a section in the rules that state (for travel starting in TC2/3): "Reservations for the first international flight and all preceding flights must be made prior to departure. Subsequent segments may be open-dated". Was she just wrong and I should have argued it with her?

That routing doesn't violate any rules and counting DFW-SFO as NA 1/6 is quite correct. It isn't FRA-SFO. It is FRA-DFW-SFO.
1: FRA-DFW: 1st of 1 (intercontinental entry to North America without immediate transit & departure)
2: DFW-SFO: 1st of 6 (North America)
3: SFO-LAS: 2nd of 6 (North America)
4: LAS-LAX: 3rd of 6 (North America)
5: LAX-YYZ: 4th of 6 (North America/North America Transcon)
6: YYZ-ORD: 5th of 6 (North America)
7: ORD-JFK: 6th of 6 (North America)
8: JFK-SYD: intercontinental
9: SYD-NRT: 1st of 1 (intercontinental entry to Asia without immediate transit & departure)
10: NRT-BKK: 1st of 4 (Asia)
11: BKK-HKG: 2nd of 4 (Asia)
12: HKG-SIN: 3rd of 4 (Asia)
13: SIN-LHR: intercontinental
14: LHR-DXB: 1st of 4 (Europe)
15: DXB-LHR: 2nd of 4 (Europe)
16: LHR-FRA: 3rd of 4 (Europe)

Your current route has 16 sectors. You can't add another one, paid extra or not, unless you drop one somewhere else.

They need to enter a date into the booking. It's a restriction due to etickets. You can change the date after ticketing, or try to get a paper ticket.

I was under the impression that I can buy up to two extra segments for each continent (other than origin) with no more than 20 segments in total for the entire ticket.

With the above route you're not violating any rules regarding stopovers in the continent of origin - you have two shown, LHR and DXB. The rule regarding city pairs is that you can't fly the same segment twice, e.g. LAX-DFW-LAX-DFW.

I presume you're also aware that SFO-LAS is via LAX (same flight number, two sectors) that starts next month, and is not necessarily a permanent thing. AA sometimes shows "direct" flights that actually stop en route. There is no nonstop Oneworld service between SFO and LAS.
Used to be that 20 was the maximum amount, counting supplemental segments. No more; 16 is now the magic number. You can't exceed 16 overall, full stop.

The only way the 16 sector limit can be overridden is if the airline changes something. Such as due to a cancellation.
eg, In 2008, I had booked a 16 sector LONE4 with NRT-MEL. QF canceled the
NRT-MEL flights after I ticketed, so rerouted me through SYD. Making it 17 sectors with NRT-SYD-MEL.
In 2009, I had booked a 16 sector LONE4 with a single flight number DEN(ORD)BOS. After ticketing, AA canned the flight and rerouted me via DFW, making DEN-BOS into DEN-DFW-BOS and upto 17 sectors.

If you are doing the LHR-DXB-LHR turn around purely for the miles/Status credits; might I suggest LHR-MCT-LHR instead?

Agree. But the itinerary is not really miles/status optimised anyway.

I am doing DXB because I want to visit there. With my current ticket, The destinations which are optional to me are NRT (been too many times recently) and HKG. HKG is only there so I can book a side trip to PVG easier.

How would you suggest I route to maximise miles/status? Assuming I want to keep all the locations that are currently in there except for NRT and HKG? That leaves two wild cards I am open to.

I am correct in assuming then that I can by extra segments within a continent as long as it doesn't go over 16 segments overall then?

Will it be cheaper for me to book by doing it through AA RTW desk (and paying in AUD) or should I just book it through the OneWorld planner?

Yes, but you can't add segments in the continent of origin, and any extra segments in North America can't include a second transcontinental nonstop.

If FRA-DFW (AA) is your first segment I don't think you need to use the RTW desk. Your ticket will be issued by AA and if you need support post-sale you can still deal with the RTW desk then.

I don't know if anyone has posted experience of using the online tool to buy additional segments. You could give it a shot and report back.

You can't buy extra segments using the online tool.

Correct

And then if one tries to purchase the ticket by other means - say through the AA RTW desk - one gets in to the rule regarding the fare being the higher of country of origin and country of purchase

Since the OP will be in Europe for some time before setting off on the ex-FRA RTW, then s/he will be OK- but if wanting to puchase in Australia before departure then there will likely be a problem

Couple things I felt like throwing out.

I purchased an AONE5 ex-RUH in January for 11,140 CAD, which is about the same in AUD. That's in FIRST, to make it clear. RUH can be a freaking amazing deal.

I booked using the AA RTW desk and purchased it in YVR to take advantage of the Canadian exception. If you can't purchase online (which lets you pay the originating country price regardless where your computer is physically located or your credit card is set up) a Candian TA can facilitate the purchase for ~$500.

My IPC-LIM route was cancelled. LAN protected me on a crappy regional Y+ product with bad timings but the AA RTW desk came up with a better option a day later that gave me the international J with a better connection. This gave me a 17 segment ticket, so Meredith (the amazing head of the RTW desk) worked some magic and split my last couple flights onto a separate ticket and linked the PNR, and will then reissue them as one ticket preserving my seats etc. after I fly my first couple flights.

One cannot use a paper ticket if any flights are BA operated unless BA issues the ticket. They refuse to honor any paper tickets not issued by them >.<

Well, personally I would drop more locations to free up flights. LAS could easily be done by car or using Frequent Flyer points and adding YYZ is a double whammy because you have two short flights and they book into D not A. If in Asia you want to go to BKK and SIN then you could do NRT-BKK-NRT-SIN-NRT-LHR.

Can you share your experience with RUH? I contemplated starting there but changed to CPT instead as the visa trouble and cost just made it too difficult (and I got more miles for my positioning flight to CPT compared to RUH).

+1, bolded.
Thx.

I had no trouble getting a 72 hour transit visa even with flights leaving before the one I scheduled. I worked with the Saudi Embassy in D.C. for what it's worth. I chose RUH over AMM because I saved $1500 on my J positioning ticket. I considered JNB/CPT but they both were significantly more expensive after I decided to cut out Africa.

I'll report my actual experiences after I am in Riyadh June 14-15.

Wow you guys weren't kidding when you said ex-AMM is a lot cheaper. Finally got some more time to do some planning and its only around $200 more to do an ex-AMM AONE4 than an ex-FRA DONE4.

As my first leg would now be AMM-ORD (with RJ), is RJ difficult to deal with to change my OWE itinerary? Or is there AA codeshare on that flight (which I can't seem to find)?

How hard is it to get a tourist visa for Jordan? Would love to go have a gander a Petra if I were to be there!

Also, was just playing with the oneworld planner... why does it tell me that QF108 doesn't offer First? It clearly does...

Where are you trying to get on QF108? New York or LA? The LAX-SYD sector is a 747 with first class, the JFK-LAX sector is a A330 which does not have first class.

My QF108 booking would be JFK-SYD.

AA issues OWE on behalf of RJ (i.e. when you use the online tool with RJ as your first carrier), so you'll have the benefit of the amazing AA RTW desk for any changes you need to make to your itinerary.