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Hubwise, it's interesting to see what plans AB and OW have for Germany. Double hubs at DUS and TXL/BBI to compete with the FRA and MUC offerings of LH and partners?
DUS is far stronger regarding business passengers than the Berlin airports and could cover Western Europe from the Benelux down through France and Switzerland to northern Italy as a hub for TATL flights. On the other hand, DUS has a vast catchment area of it's own to send passengers to other OW hubs at LHR and HEL for example to continue on longhauls. Obviously OW needs to improve lounge offerings at DUS. The BA Terraces currently open there would be hopelessly overrun by transit passengers to NA and Caribbean destinations. TXL and later BBI would seem natural as a hub to a wide range of East European, Russian and Central Asian destinations (think S7) in direct competition with LH/OS at FRA/MUC/VIE and Air Baltic at RIX. Gather those passengers at Berlin and send them onwards to LHR, TATL and all over Western Europe. TXL has no room and considering the current timeframe, no need for new lounges. It's ok as present with the compact boarding arrangements. But then something spectacular to be expected at BBI? Where would OW likely aim to serve African destinations from Europe and NA? LHR, DUS, TXL/BBI or all three? That continent is getting ever more important for both business and leisure travel and has been clearly underrepresented in the OW network. |
As far as I can tell, this benefits only Germans and the only business value to BA and Finnair is an attack on Lufthansa. Right?
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From the oneworld press release today July 27:
Air Berlin is to join oneworldŽ, adding Europe's fifth largest airline and Germany's second biggest carrier to the world's leading quality airline alliance. Air Berlin group member Austria's NIKI will become an affiliate member of the alliance. A memorandum of understanding between Air Berlin and oneworld was completed in the airline's Berlin home city last night, with a formal alliance membership agreement to be signed soon. Air Berlin is expected to start flying as part of oneworld in early 2012 - just weeks before the opening of the new Berlin Brandenburg International Airport, which is being built as a major new hub for Europe. All but one of the alliance's existing carriers (with Mexicana the exception) already serve Air Berlin's German homeland - the most populous country and the biggest economy in the European Union. They will also be looking to expand their own services to its key hubs Berlin and Dusseldorf as the new alliance recruit prepares to join the group. About Air Berlin Since its launch in 1979, Air Berlin has grown into Germany's second largest airline - and the fifth biggest in Europe in terms of passengers boarded - after taking over Deutsche BA and LTU and gaining a 49.9 per cent stake in Austria's NIKI and a 49 per cent holding in Switzerland's Belair. It has developed from its origins in the shorthaul leisure market to cater also for business travellers with its Euro Shuttle service providing high frequency connections between many of the continent's key destinations and now also flies longhaul. It is one of Europe's most frequent winners in the various airline industry award schemes. On its shorthaul services, it offers a single-class cabin. On its longhaul routes, it offers two-classes, with a premium business cabin and individual in-flight entertainment screens for each passenger. While it has been named the World's Best Low-Cost Airline seven years running in the World Airline Awards run by the Skytrax airline quality organisation, it now offers the full-range of services associated with a full-service network carrier, including its frequent flyer programme topbonus, and, for premium passengers, lounges, priority check-in and, for all passengers, free alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks and meals or snacks on every departure. It will move in June 2012 into the new Berlin Brandenburg International airport, which will have capacity eventually for 45 million passengers a year. Air Berlin holds major market shares in its home city and also at Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Stuttgart and Palma de Majorca. Among its international destinations, it serves oneworld hubs Helsinki, Los Angeles, Madrid, Miami, Moscow Domodedovo, New York JFK and Bangkok. Its current fleet (including NIKI) comprises 165 aircraft, with an average age of five years, including 13 Airbus A330s, 75 A321s/A320s/A319s, 63 Boeing 737s, four Embraer E190s and 10 Bombardier Q400s. It employs 8,500 staff. Webcast A webcast of today's press briefing announcing these developments is available for viewing on-demand, featuring: •Air Berlin Chief Executive Joachim Hunold •British Airways Chief Executive Willie Walsh •American Airlines President Tom Horton •Finnair Chief Executive Mika Vehviläinen •oneworld Managing Partner John McCulloch To view the webcast in English, go to airberlin.com/pressconference_oneworld To view the webcast in German, go to airberlin.com/pk_oneworld |
Originally Posted by stimpy
(Post 14373775)
As far as I can tell, this benefits only Germans and the only business value to BA and Finnair is an attack on Lufthansa. Right?
And it is not the "oinly" business value to the three European carriers to attack LH (AUA, SWISS, Brussels, LOT, BD, Dolomiti, LH Italia) and AF/KLM, but they are/were/have been in urgent need of a partner not to lose more ground on the continent. If you go back in the past, BA once had the dream to establish a carrier in the heart of Europe, Deutsche BA (today part of AB). However, BA's management was never, has never been and will obviously never be able to operate an airline profitable, so this ended in a disaster. |
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
(Post 14374157)
If you go back in the past, BA once had the dream to establish a carrier in the heart of Europe, Deutsche BA (today part of AB). However, BA's management was never, has never been and will obviously never be able to operate an airline profitable, so this ended in a disaster.
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Originally Posted by Aisle Seat H
(Post 14373077)
yep... a couple of people over the years called for it on that Thread [e.g. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/12749974-post42.html], but IC6A considered it no better than a 150/1 chance that it would happen [http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/12984586-post46.html] and then decided it was so unlikely that he gave us odds of 1500/1 back in April [http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/13865800-post59.html]!!! :eek:;)
How I now wish I'd have made a bet with him then! ;):D Funny enough when I heared of the news I just flew BA from Berlin Tegal to London and had a chat with BA staff about moving to new airport next year... Funny little world. I guess if everyone bet with me I may cash a lot by then since hardly anyone would belive this could happen so quickly last week until sunday. |
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
(Post 14374157)
If you go back in the past, BA once had the dream to establish a carrier in the heart of Europe, Deutsche BA (today part of AB). However, BA's management was never, has never been and will obviously never be able to operate an airline profitable, so this ended in a disaster.
This year has been an interesting one for OW. This year's addition of S7, IT & AB are all hugely strategic and put OW back where it needed to be if it wanted to remain in the big league, especially since both *A and ST seemed to be steaming past OW for the last 3 years. In fact, if all goes according to plan, I think this might actually put OW back into premier position in terms of the carriers offered on the OW network. *A might be bigger, but OW will definitely offer an overall more capable set of carriers (IMHO). The only thing key components missing now are a mainland Chinese, Brazillian and African (Comair is great, but is really just a ZA domestic carrier at the end of the day) carrier. Once those are added (a big 'if' sadly), any further additions will really only be playing at the edges. |
Originally Posted by mosburger
(Post 14373690)
Hubwise, it's interesting to see what plans AB and OW have for Germany. Double hubs at DUS and TXL/BBI to compete with the FRA and MUC offerings of LH and partners?
DUS is far stronger regarding business passengers than the Berlin airports and could cover Western Europe from the Benelux down through France and Switzerland to northern Italy as a hub for TATL flights. On the other hand, DUS has a vast catchment area of it's own to send passengers to other OW hubs at LHR and HEL for example to continue on longhauls. Obviously OW needs to improve lounge offerings at DUS. The BA Terraces currently open there would be hopelessly overrun by transit passengers to NA and Caribbean destinations. TXL and later BBI would seem natural as a hub to a wide range of East European, Russian and Central Asian destinations (think S7) in direct competition with LH/OS at FRA/MUC/VIE and Air Baltic at RIX. Gather those passengers at Berlin and send them onwards to LHR, TATL and all over Western Europe. TXL has no room and considering the current timeframe, no need for new lounges. It's ok as present with the compact boarding arrangements. But then something spectacular to be expected at BBI? Where would OW likely aim to serve African destinations from Europe and NA? LHR, DUS, TXL/BBI or all three? That continent is getting ever more important for both business and leisure travel and has been clearly underrepresented in the OW network. If OW can find a way to pass people between LHR, MAD, HEL, BUD, and either DUS or BBI - then the European network becomes substantially more attractive in getting people from outside of Europe to the smaller cities that might not be as easily served, and actually fulfill the promises of both the hub and spoke system and the mega-alliances. |
Originally Posted by DownUnderFlyer
(Post 14371310)
Still the question is what does AB actually want in OW? No flights to LHR, and all the complexities of Frequent Flyers, baggage, IT, lounges etc.
BTW, also, whats up with OW and S7? |
Originally Posted by IC6A
(Post 14374286)
You should had indeed. Frankly speaking I had the sense that AB will eventually choose OneWorld. But I did not see it happening so quickly. Last year I hoped AB could make a decision soon but it did not come near to any OW carriers codeshares or FFP programm cooperation. So I changed the position of their possibilities of join OW.
Funny enough when I heared of the news I just flew BA from Berlin Tegal to London and had a chat with BA staff about moving to new airport next year... Funny little world... Big turnaround this year for OW - wonder if they have been offering sweeter deals to tempt in the likes of Kingfisher and Air Berlin? |
Originally Posted by Traveloguy
(Post 14374348)
Rubbish. BA has been largely profitable for many many years so your statement above is fiction to say the least.
However, at one day they had to start to manage an airline. And at the latest when starting their German adventure profitablity was no longer true. Could they manage in non (or not so much) regulated markets? No. There are only a few profitable airlines, BA is certainly not one of them. |
Originally Posted by Traveloguy
(Post 14374348)
The only thing key components missing now are a mainland Chinese, Brazillian and African (Comair is great, but is really just a ZA domestic carrier at the end of the day) carrier. Once those are added (a big 'if' sadly), any further additions will really only be playing at the edges.
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Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
(Post 14375126)
True. As long as airline business was highly regulated and/or subsidised BA was profitable. However, is was not a problem to be profitable during those days. There was no need to manage an airline, you just had to operate an airline and had a license to print money.
However, at one day they had to start to manage an airline. And at the latest when starting their German adventure profitablity was no longer true. Could they manage in non (or not so much) regulated markets? No. There are only a few profitable airlines, BA is certainly not one of them. |
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
(Post 14375126)
True. As long as airline business was highly regulated and/or subsidised BA was profitable. However, is was not a problem to be profitable during those days. There was no need to manage an airline, you just had to operate an airline and had a license to print money.
However, at one day they had to start to manage an airline. And at the latest when starting their German adventure profitablity was no longer true. Could they manage in non (or not so much) regulated markets? No. There are only a few profitable airlines, BA is certainly not one of them. Potentially unstable fellow travelers. One more reason for me to further avoid travel with LH. :D |
Originally Posted by jerry a. laska
(Post 14367344)
http://www.oneworld.com/ow/news/details?objectID=22473
http://www.4investors.de/php_fe/inde...ones&ID=178292 Should have seen it coming, but I DID NOT. Closes that central European gap. Flew AB for the first time this May. I was impressed with their efficiency and service which exceeded a LCC. Especially considering that my fare Milano - Copenhagen was $ 39.00 All-in :) |
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