DL now operating NW 744s ATL/HNL
Jan 19, 2009, 2:58 pm
#16
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Actually, DL 802/803 will be NW operated. That means all operations, including catering. DL just sells the seats. That's why I predict the 744 HNL/ATL service will be exactly like the A333 service HNL/MSP, since the A333 service is NW operated and NW flight number. Analogy: fly on ASA, Pinnacle, Compass, etc., operated by them and sold by DL, NW, etc. You get commuter service, including "food".
Jan 19, 2009, 3:32 pm
#17
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Yes, I was trying to make the distinction that DL may be supplying the food, etc. But I guess, by the above post, that that is not the case. Does NW even have catering services in ATL?
Jan 19, 2009, 4:47 pm
#18
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Well, that was the next obvious thought. It might be a NW aircraft, with NW crew, and NW operations... yet isn't NW limited to the ATL catering options? And I'd suspect that even if there are more then one catering companies in ATL, unless there's a contractual obligation, it just makes sense to use whatever DL is using (from a back-office position).
Jan 20, 2009, 7:57 am
#19
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And one other thing... There are already reports of DL elites using PMUs on this flight over on the DL boards. IF this is still a NW operated flight, does anyone else feel as though we (NW elites) should get PMUs to use on DL and NW operated flights??
Jan 20, 2009, 10:08 am
#20
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I'm sitting in F right now on NW625 at MSP and mai taus are indeed not history. Different mix though.
On my flight to MSP--NW 624--mai tais were not served but nor were any other preflight drinks since the flight took off 3 hours late.
Originally Posted by Eidetic
Bangalore CC was wrong (must be the first time *_* ). The 744 service starts on 2 April 2009.
Mai Tais may be history. They weren't served on the A333 on my outbound from HNL this trip. Had my first segment on a CRJ900 this trip, in F. VERY similar to F in a -9 or an -88 except it's MUCH quieter.
Mai Tais may be history. They weren't served on the A333 on my outbound from HNL this trip. Had my first segment on a CRJ900 this trip, in F. VERY similar to F in a -9 or an -88 except it's MUCH quieter.
On my flight to MSP--NW 624--mai tais were not served but nor were any other preflight drinks since the flight took off 3 hours late.
Jan 20, 2009, 12:41 pm
#21
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,576
In March or April the DL onboard service will be standard throughout NWA and NWA Airlink operated flights... so whos food it is will be a moot point for the ATL-HNL whale. And yes, while the Y product is inferior to the 333 product, it isn't all that much different than the current 764 service. All of DLs 767s are being refurbished and the NWA fleet will as well.
Jan 20, 2009, 1:17 pm
#22
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,679
In March or April the DL onboard service will be standard throughout NWA and NWA Airlink operated flights... so whos food it is will be a moot point for the ATL-HNL whale. And yes, while the Y product is inferior to the 333 product, it isn't all that much different than the current 764 service. All of DLs 767s are being refurbished and the NWA fleet will as well.
Jan 20, 2009, 6:09 pm
#23
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,576
I don't know... I'm sure the inflight folks at DL and NWA are looking at what works best. The food, beverages, flatware, presentation etc... will all be DL. I think the first thing to change are the pillows and blankets in WBC.
Jan 21, 2009, 2:55 pm
#24
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Has anyone been on this ATL-HNL route this month? I'm just wondering what sets it apart from other HNL services offered by other carriers. I'm seriously thinking about flying this particular route come this May. Any information is appreciated.
Jan 21, 2009, 4:04 pm
#25
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747s and Single List Integration (SLI)
In response to an earlier poster's question about whether it will be a NW crew or DL crew operating the flight? It will be a NW crew, and will generally be so for at least another five years on the 747 and the same will be true for DL 777s.
You might recall during the period when the merger was being negotiated, Richard Anderson (Delta's CEO) said he wouldn't go forward with the deal unless the DL and NW pilots groups could reach an agreement on merging their seniority lists, otherwise known as a Single List Integration (SLI). Anderson wanted to avoid what had become a complete CF and, really, civil war between the pilot groups of the former America West Airlines and US Airways. That nightmare is still going on today.
Briefly, both the AWA and US pilot groups were represented by the Airline Pilots Association (ALPA) and both had similar language in their contracts covering SLI in the event AWA or US merged with another ALPA carrier. Unfortunately, the AWA and US pilots were unable to agree upon terms for a SLI and the matter was brought before an arbitrator, as required by the ALPA contracts. The arbitrator's decision - known as the "Nicolau award" - so incensed the US pilot group (the numerically larger group of the two) that they managed to get ALPA decertified on the merged US/AWA property, started their own union (known as the US Airways Pilots Association - USAPA) and got USAPA certified as the new union for all US Airways pilots.
To this day, while the AWA logos are long gone, US Airways continues to operate as "Easties" (former US Air pilots) and "Westies" (former AWA pilots). You might be thinking that it's very inefficient to operate a huge airline this way and you would be correct. It's been killing US Airways for years, and could very well be a significant factor in the airline's potential liquidation in 2009.
Back to the DL and NW deal. As with US/AWA, both pilot groups were ALPA and they tried but were ultimately unable to resolve their differences. Anderson changed his tune on SLI before merging and moved forward with the deal, in large part because DL/NW really, really wanted to get it reviewed by the US Department of Justice Anti-Trust Division while W was still in office, rather than taking a chance with the new administration (at the time the merger was announced no one knew who would be president, but it certainly wasn't a mystery that things weren't looking good for the Republicans).
Meanwhile, after the merger was announced DL promptly agreed to a sweetened deal with its pilots group that generally would provide for meaningful pay raises for NW pilots once the SLI was completed. The pilot groups then agreed to move forward with an arbitration panel to determine their SLI and presented their cases last fall. The panel released its decision in December.
In a nutshell, the panel ruled that "fences" would be put in place for five years for current NW 747 and DL 777 pilots - in other words if you're not currently flying the 747 or 777, you can't bid on it, regardless of seniority (which is based on date of hire - DOH). If a pilot from either group retires or otherwise decides to bid to another aircraft - thus opening a slot, then pilots outside the fences can bid for the vacant slot and the most senior bidder will get the award. Otherwise, now that the SLI is done, DL and NW pilots on the merged list will be bidding to fly the myriad other aircraft DL/NW fly, and those slots will be awarded based upon DOH (with some minor exceptions).
While there was some grumping about the arbitration panel's decision, it's my impression that the DL and NW pilot groups learned many lessons from the misery their compatriots are enduring at US Airways. I also feel that, overall, even though it's all "back room" stuff, it's a big plus for customers that the SLI was resolved because it will allow DL to operate more efficiently and thus more reliably (hopefully).
You might recall during the period when the merger was being negotiated, Richard Anderson (Delta's CEO) said he wouldn't go forward with the deal unless the DL and NW pilots groups could reach an agreement on merging their seniority lists, otherwise known as a Single List Integration (SLI). Anderson wanted to avoid what had become a complete CF and, really, civil war between the pilot groups of the former America West Airlines and US Airways. That nightmare is still going on today.
Briefly, both the AWA and US pilot groups were represented by the Airline Pilots Association (ALPA) and both had similar language in their contracts covering SLI in the event AWA or US merged with another ALPA carrier. Unfortunately, the AWA and US pilots were unable to agree upon terms for a SLI and the matter was brought before an arbitrator, as required by the ALPA contracts. The arbitrator's decision - known as the "Nicolau award" - so incensed the US pilot group (the numerically larger group of the two) that they managed to get ALPA decertified on the merged US/AWA property, started their own union (known as the US Airways Pilots Association - USAPA) and got USAPA certified as the new union for all US Airways pilots.
To this day, while the AWA logos are long gone, US Airways continues to operate as "Easties" (former US Air pilots) and "Westies" (former AWA pilots). You might be thinking that it's very inefficient to operate a huge airline this way and you would be correct. It's been killing US Airways for years, and could very well be a significant factor in the airline's potential liquidation in 2009.
Back to the DL and NW deal. As with US/AWA, both pilot groups were ALPA and they tried but were ultimately unable to resolve their differences. Anderson changed his tune on SLI before merging and moved forward with the deal, in large part because DL/NW really, really wanted to get it reviewed by the US Department of Justice Anti-Trust Division while W was still in office, rather than taking a chance with the new administration (at the time the merger was announced no one knew who would be president, but it certainly wasn't a mystery that things weren't looking good for the Republicans).
Meanwhile, after the merger was announced DL promptly agreed to a sweetened deal with its pilots group that generally would provide for meaningful pay raises for NW pilots once the SLI was completed. The pilot groups then agreed to move forward with an arbitration panel to determine their SLI and presented their cases last fall. The panel released its decision in December.
In a nutshell, the panel ruled that "fences" would be put in place for five years for current NW 747 and DL 777 pilots - in other words if you're not currently flying the 747 or 777, you can't bid on it, regardless of seniority (which is based on date of hire - DOH). If a pilot from either group retires or otherwise decides to bid to another aircraft - thus opening a slot, then pilots outside the fences can bid for the vacant slot and the most senior bidder will get the award. Otherwise, now that the SLI is done, DL and NW pilots on the merged list will be bidding to fly the myriad other aircraft DL/NW fly, and those slots will be awarded based upon DOH (with some minor exceptions).
While there was some grumping about the arbitration panel's decision, it's my impression that the DL and NW pilot groups learned many lessons from the misery their compatriots are enduring at US Airways. I also feel that, overall, even though it's all "back room" stuff, it's a big plus for customers that the SLI was resolved because it will allow DL to operate more efficiently and thus more reliably (hopefully).
Jan 22, 2009, 5:19 am
#26
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In response to an earlier poster's question about whether it will be a NW crew or DL crew operating the flight? It will be a NW crew, and will generally be so for at least another five years on the 747 and the same will be true for DL 777s.
You might recall during the period when the merger was being negotiated, Richard Anderson (Delta's CEO) said he wouldn't go forward with the deal unless the DL and NW pilots groups could reach an agreement on merging their seniority lists, otherwise known as a Single List Integration (SLI). Anderson wanted to avoid what had become a complete CF and, really, civil war between the pilot groups of the former America West Airlines and US Airways. That nightmare is still going on today.
Briefly, both the AWA and US pilot groups were represented by the Airline Pilots Association (ALPA) and both had similar language in their contracts covering SLI in the event AWA or US merged with another ALPA carrier. Unfortunately, the AWA and US pilots were unable to agree upon terms for a SLI and the matter was brought before an arbitrator, as required by the ALPA contracts. The arbitrator's decision - known as the "Nicolau award" - so incensed the US pilot group (the numerically larger group of the two) that they managed to get ALPA decertified on the merged US/AWA property, started their own union (known as the US Airways Pilots Association - USAPA) and got USAPA certified as the new union for all US Airways pilots.
To this day, while the AWA logos are long gone, US Airways continues to operate as "Easties" (former US Air pilots) and "Westies" (former AWA pilots). You might be thinking that it's very inefficient to operate a huge airline this way and you would be correct. It's been killing US Airways for years, and could very well be a significant factor in the airline's potential liquidation in 2009.
Back to the DL and NW deal. As with US/AWA, both pilot groups were ALPA and they tried but were ultimately unable to resolve their differences. Anderson changed his tune on SLI before merging and moved forward with the deal, in large part because DL/NW really, really wanted to get it reviewed by the US Department of Justice Anti-Trust Division while W was still in office, rather than taking a chance with the new administration (at the time the merger was announced no one knew who would be president, but it certainly wasn't a mystery that things weren't looking good for the Republicans).
Meanwhile, after the merger was announced DL promptly agreed to a sweetened deal with its pilots group that generally would provide for meaningful pay raises for NW pilots once the SLI was completed. The pilot groups then agreed to move forward with an arbitration panel to determine their SLI and presented their cases last fall. The panel released its decision in December.
In a nutshell, the panel ruled that "fences" would be put in place for five years for current NW 747 and DL 777 pilots - in other words if you're not currently flying the 747 or 777, you can't bid on it, regardless of seniority (which is based on date of hire - DOH). If a pilot from either group retires or otherwise decides to bid to another aircraft - thus opening a slot, then pilots outside the fences can bid for the vacant slot and the most senior bidder will get the award. Otherwise, now that the SLI is done, DL and NW pilots on the merged list will be bidding to fly the myriad other aircraft DL/NW fly, and those slots will be awarded based upon DOH (with some minor exceptions).
While there was some grumping about the arbitration panel's decision, it's my impression that the DL and NW pilot groups learned many lessons from the misery their compatriots are enduring at US Airways. I also feel that, overall, even though it's all "back room" stuff, it's a big plus for customers that the SLI was resolved because it will allow DL to operate more efficiently and thus more reliably (hopefully).
You might recall during the period when the merger was being negotiated, Richard Anderson (Delta's CEO) said he wouldn't go forward with the deal unless the DL and NW pilots groups could reach an agreement on merging their seniority lists, otherwise known as a Single List Integration (SLI). Anderson wanted to avoid what had become a complete CF and, really, civil war between the pilot groups of the former America West Airlines and US Airways. That nightmare is still going on today.
Briefly, both the AWA and US pilot groups were represented by the Airline Pilots Association (ALPA) and both had similar language in their contracts covering SLI in the event AWA or US merged with another ALPA carrier. Unfortunately, the AWA and US pilots were unable to agree upon terms for a SLI and the matter was brought before an arbitrator, as required by the ALPA contracts. The arbitrator's decision - known as the "Nicolau award" - so incensed the US pilot group (the numerically larger group of the two) that they managed to get ALPA decertified on the merged US/AWA property, started their own union (known as the US Airways Pilots Association - USAPA) and got USAPA certified as the new union for all US Airways pilots.
To this day, while the AWA logos are long gone, US Airways continues to operate as "Easties" (former US Air pilots) and "Westies" (former AWA pilots). You might be thinking that it's very inefficient to operate a huge airline this way and you would be correct. It's been killing US Airways for years, and could very well be a significant factor in the airline's potential liquidation in 2009.
Back to the DL and NW deal. As with US/AWA, both pilot groups were ALPA and they tried but were ultimately unable to resolve their differences. Anderson changed his tune on SLI before merging and moved forward with the deal, in large part because DL/NW really, really wanted to get it reviewed by the US Department of Justice Anti-Trust Division while W was still in office, rather than taking a chance with the new administration (at the time the merger was announced no one knew who would be president, but it certainly wasn't a mystery that things weren't looking good for the Republicans).
Meanwhile, after the merger was announced DL promptly agreed to a sweetened deal with its pilots group that generally would provide for meaningful pay raises for NW pilots once the SLI was completed. The pilot groups then agreed to move forward with an arbitration panel to determine their SLI and presented their cases last fall. The panel released its decision in December.
In a nutshell, the panel ruled that "fences" would be put in place for five years for current NW 747 and DL 777 pilots - in other words if you're not currently flying the 747 or 777, you can't bid on it, regardless of seniority (which is based on date of hire - DOH). If a pilot from either group retires or otherwise decides to bid to another aircraft - thus opening a slot, then pilots outside the fences can bid for the vacant slot and the most senior bidder will get the award. Otherwise, now that the SLI is done, DL and NW pilots on the merged list will be bidding to fly the myriad other aircraft DL/NW fly, and those slots will be awarded based upon DOH (with some minor exceptions).
While there was some grumping about the arbitration panel's decision, it's my impression that the DL and NW pilot groups learned many lessons from the misery their compatriots are enduring at US Airways. I also feel that, overall, even though it's all "back room" stuff, it's a big plus for customers that the SLI was resolved because it will allow DL to operate more efficiently and thus more reliably (hopefully).
Jan 22, 2009, 9:05 pm
#27
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Sitting at Lounge 2 in NRT right now. The DL painted NW 744 just landed. Still a beautiful plane...still not right in DL colors.
-RM
-RM
Jan 22, 2009, 10:23 pm
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Posts: 1,236
msnflier, very informative post.
azj, thanks for the headsup on inflight service. I have to say, IME DL food in F and BE is noticeably better than NW food in F and WBC.
socrazi, I flew ATL/HNL on the 764ER 2 days ago. Not knowing exactly your concerns, in general compared to NW's 753s, DL's 764ERs in F have limited footroom due to underseat IFE modules (except for window seats). The inseat screens in 764ER F are small (~6") but better the those on NW 757s (0"). The IFE is not AVOD, you watch whatever is running... from videocassette. Yes... videocassette playback ... your mobile phone has a better picture. As noted above, DL food is better (it should be for the difference in tix price).
azj, thanks for the headsup on inflight service. I have to say, IME DL food in F and BE is noticeably better than NW food in F and WBC.
socrazi, I flew ATL/HNL on the 764ER 2 days ago. Not knowing exactly your concerns, in general compared to NW's 753s, DL's 764ERs in F have limited footroom due to underseat IFE modules (except for window seats). The inseat screens in 764ER F are small (~6") but better the those on NW 757s (0"). The IFE is not AVOD, you watch whatever is running... from videocassette. Yes... videocassette playback ... your mobile phone has a better picture. As noted above, DL food is better (it should be for the difference in tix price).
Jan 28, 2009, 10:25 am
#29
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Jan 28, 2009, 11:04 am
#30
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,039
May is off-peak to HNL.
(Most of) June, July and August is peak.
(Most of) June, July and August is peak.