In my experience 99% of the flying public isn't that sophisticated. They simply want to their destination. Where the stop is does not matter... Unless it adds a lot of time in layovers or flying out of their way.

An additional stop would add a lot of time and be out of the way.

The most telling insight into this is that DL tried, and tried hard, for several years ... and it didn't work. DL had no competition to Asia out of PDX, and there was a concerted effort by civic and business leaders to try to persuade DL to keep the service. Nothing against PDX... I love Portland, but in a hub and spoke world, the international gateways are hubs, and PDX is a spoke.

Also, don't under-estimate the "DE-Port-land" issue that DL faced. PDX got a reputation throughout Asia as one of the toughest immigration airports in the US.

I flew the DL PDX-NRT route a few times and at one point vowed never to do so again. As a "play-it-by-the-rules" business traveler I was consistently inconvenienced by over-zealous customs and immigration agents with too much time on their hands. It truly was MUCH worse than any of the other west coast gateways I regularly flew used (SEA, YVR, SFO, LAX). I can only imagine what non-residents had to go through. Actually, I don't have to imagine it -- I saw it myself. I can't even imagine what it would be like in the post-Sept. 11 world.

I did business in all the major Asian markets at that time and whenever/wherever it came up that I flew Delta from PDX, eyebrows were raised and comments were made about horror stories they'd heard about. Those legends have long lives.

As for the PDX-NRT route itself, given the proximity to SEA, I don’t really get it. Cargo is probably the driving issue. Somebody mentioned PHX as a potentially logical option – that would be fabulous. PHX’s first non-stop to Asia!

I agreed with that comment considering PDX is really within driving distance from SEA. BOS would be a great compliment to DL expansion in the areas.

As a furloughed NWA employee as well as a 4th generation son of PDX, I'm thinking that I can offer some light to this conundrum.
YES, it's true that PDX became infamous for lethargic processing of PAX, leaving them struggling to meet their connections. The director of customs in PDX has since been transferred to Lodi, CA or somewhere, comparable), since.
Vegas Agent probably knows better than I, but it's my understanding that NRT-LAS service ended trhe week that LAS delivered the first bill to NWA (Payment in Spinzels was not acceptable, I guess).
PDX is offering a similar deal that LAS was. They want to foster international service, so they're offering a year of free landing rights and rent. Mexicana and Lufthansa have bitten at this very carrot and now service my beloved "Rose City."
Now the bad news-because of Portland's passionate commitment to quality of life issues (not to mention a hearty xenophobia-directed primarily to California and Washington)industry doesn't feel welcome in PDX. So we HAVE very little of it. Although Nike manufactures plenty, not much of it makes it to Oregon, thus there's no need for a tremendous cargo capacity, there.
My suspicion is that if NWA were to follow Lufthansa and Mexicana, they'd pull out the moment the first bill was delivered.
An enthusiastice Portland-phile.
-JP

Right, so it may be an important difference that Tokyo is a NW hub.

Exactly so. Even if PDX overcomes the INS issues (I believe Japanese travel agents were at one point refusing en masse to book Japanese nationals on DL's PDX flight owing to the hassle and harassment)... Portland doesn't have enough O/D business traffic to support the flight. And there's no "network" in PDX to support any international longhaul, LH's or this one or anyone else's... I don't think NW knows anything DL didn't.

A PDX tag/through plane on the SEA-NRT service wouldn't make any sense... why would PDX-originating pax check in two+ hours early, then sit through a 90-minute ground stop in SEA? Much faster to nip up to SEA on the QX shuttle (one of its few genuinely sensible applications).

Also-
I believe that America West used to fly from PHX to NRT, did they not?
-JP

Early in the 80s, pre-bankruptcy #1, HP flew to NGO (Nagoya) via HNL with a 747. Northwest bought that route and the aircraft from HP in a deal they put together that included code-sharing on some HP West Coast flights that fed NW Asia routes & frequent flyer partnering. The code sharing & FF partnership is still in place today.

This reminds me of the PDX-SEA-HNL flight service they had in the 80's when Northwest originated flight 925 from Portland with a 757 with change of aircraft to 747-100 from Seattle to Honolulu. Similar flight arrangment on its return.

I was on the very last 747-100 service from Honolulu to Seattle some time back....(The business class cabin on the upper deck was used as a coach class cabin/service despite the business class seating back then...)

Your observations are on the money. Many of my Japanese biz partners have vowed never to fly through PDX for this reason.

Many of DL's Asian routes to/from PDX were indeed profitable for the airline. The PDX flights were dropped because:

1) Airline execs thought the company could make *more* money by flying to Asia from ATL, LAX, & JFK instead.

2) Shortly thereafter that decision, DL execs decided they didn't want to (or realized they couldn't) be a major player in Asia... code-shares could do the job better & cheaper.

So it's not so much that DL's Asian flights out of PDX failed - but rather the airline thought it could be more successful by re-assigning the planes to different routes.

DL most certainly turned a profit on PDX-NRT - they wouldn't have served the route for a decade if that weren't the case. Since DL made money on it... I don't see why NW woudn't (assuming the large-scale economy isn't in the toilet at the time... in which case, very few routes actually make money).

Perhaps NW could run a 747F PDX/NRT, since getting O/D out of Japan is no longer an option.

Completely agree with the above. I don't understand why PDX would be a good destination considering the relatively small population (SFO, LAX, SEA, and SAN has a larger metro population). PDX is neither a big tourist nor a business destination compared with the above-mentioned West Coast cities. I would venture to say that even SAN would be a better destination than PDX considering the size of the population.


[This message has been edited by Newyorkjet (edited 09-16-2003).]