WorldPerks program changes
 

Has anyone else heard about changes to Northwest's trans-atlantic upgrade policy? Check out http://www.nwa.com/features/upgrade.shtml

I can't believe they gave NO notice on this.

The no notice is quite understandable.

Why give people a chance to complain before you do it http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Thanks. This really stinks! Does anyone know exactly when this "gem" of a notice was posted at the site? Was it literally yesterday? Anyone get any written notice? Any changes in transPACIFIC upgrade policies?

This sucks! (though I know the rule change reflects other airlines "stiff" upgrade restrictions). I'm mostly upset by the sly, underhanded way it was announced! And to think I used to be so high on NW.. Boooooo



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Interesting.....when you you at the URL, it lists the words "features" and "upgrade". Of course in actual fact, it go on to downgrade the features. Not quite doublespeak, but a slap-in-the-face to we FF.

I hear many other airlines fly over the pond. I will again vote with my feet and my wallet.

Well, I knew I could save some money by flying NW/KLM to Europe for vacation in February, using miles to upgrade. Not as tight, and less expensive to upgrade than others.

Well, now they are like the other carriers. Moreover, world business class is not on par with the quality of same class of service by other majors. No longer a good value. Saying goodbye to vaction plans on NW and goodbye to NW Wperks.

well-just got off the phone with the NW elite line--primarily to express my suprise and extreme disappointment with the change to the upgrade policy, esp. with how it was communicated (or lack thereof). this change could have and should have been communicated better: read earlier, and not by a covert methods, ie posting via the freakin' web site. a change like this was undoubtedly in the making and decided upon a long time ago. at least NW could have given its loyal (i mean formerly loyal) ffers some advance time to make travel plans under the old rules. one day notice? come on!

now that i've calmed down a bit http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif the rule change itself is understandable. every other airline has fairly strict upgrade regs for lower-end coach tix (though it was a way NW formerly got business from me). again, its the lack of communication/forthrightness that kills me.

from talking to the agent, it seems they only got word of the change via an early morning memo dropped off on their desks. the agent told me she didn't think it the rule change went into effect until the 10th or 11th -- i'm thinking this is probably the "other" memo for a similar rule change for trans-pacific flights (to answer your Q doc).

Grrrrrrrrr well, now i will be taking my trans-atlantic business elsewhere as NW has just done away with a perk that had differentiated them in my eyes. and i sure hope that NW can fill all those seats with full revenue pax.

MJW - i'm pleading with you here ... anyway to communicate this feedback and what others have said back to the decision-makers at NW?? if so, give them a word-up on how to better inform us of tough messages such as this. we ff-ers can take changes to the program, just be more upfront about it.

sorry for the diatribe.

jexjex

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I'm actually glad they did this... a couple times a year I actually got tempted to fly NW again because of the old upgrade policy. Now they've removed the temptation and I won't have to deal with the poor customer service and bad attitudes that characterize NW.

Wouldn't it make sense to continue to make this kind of upgrade available to elite WorldPerks members as a bonus benefit? It would reduce the demand while giving a bit of an extra perk to the people Northwest wants most.

Fly American!

No crazy fare restrictions on upgrades (except for tickets bought from consolidators).

If an airline is offering a fare...it should stand by it with all the perks expected by ALL its customers.

This is a golden opportunity to make your voice heard. Everyone should flood NW with complaints, from customer service to the CEO. If we lay down and take it, we will get what we deserve, a devalued program. A couple of years ago UA tried to impose a saturday night stay restriction on free domestic tickets. The outcry was so loud they withdrew it. Treat this announcement as a trial baloon. If we don't yell and holler it will stick. Personally, this was one of the few redememing benefits to make me fly NW. If this sticks, its bye bye NW for me.

Hmmm... did anyone notice the new posting on NW web site describing the trans-atl upgrade rule change? why wasn't this language posted the first go around yesterday? (maybe NW is squirming a little here, though it does little to help matters -- an additional 3 "extra" days to book under the old rules, whoop-de-doo).

more and more i(re) think about it, i(re) think its time for me to switch airlines using one of those status-match deals ...

(i)re you listening NW?
http://www.nwa.com/features/upgrade.shtml

TransAtlantic Upgrade Change
Effective October 11, 1999, WorldPerks/OnePass Award upgrades to World Business Class are no longer available from our lowest transAtlantic Coach fares - those beginning with the letter V, Q, H or M. These upgrades continue to be available from Northwest/KLM fares beginning with Y, S, or B. This change has become necessary due to the strong demand for World Business Class seats across the Atlantic combined with low Coach fares in these markets.




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Jexjex
Their reason for the change is not too convincing. I've been on many NW transatlantic flights and WBC was pretty empty. They had other options. They could have capacity controlled it, like they do domestic FC. They could have restricted it so that it was only available in the low season. They could have made it avaiable only thru certificates and provide each elite member with a number of certificates based on status. Why do it now, as the low season approaches and there are plenty of winter seats available in WBC? There are many possibilites for handling the problem if there is one. It doesen't appear that anyone thought this through. The only rational reason I can come up with is that they decided to align their program with CO's. Is so doing, they will take away one of the few unique benefits that the World Perks prorgam provides.
If enough people complain, perhaps we have achance of getting this change put on hold, hopefully indefinitely.

here hear vulcan. initally i was miffed only as to the (nearly inexcusable)failure to adequately communicate the change. now i am questioning the reasons (logic? huh) behind the change. i agree that there were plenty of other options (certs, reserving it as a perk for elites, etc). and find it hard to believe they fill those b-class seats with full fare pax. and why couldn't they have waited until next calendar year?

i am hoping MJW will give us some of the inside scoop. maybe if we complain hard enough (like you said), they will reconsider. if not, i will take my business elsewhere.



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I agree that they are probably instituting this chage to align their ff program to that of CO. It seems that they could get more goodwill if they tried to align their service to that of CO. Why are they only imitating the shortcomings of CO

I did come up with one possibility that would be a plus. Perhaps they, and Continental, are planning to use those Transatlantic WBC seats as part of the new benefit package for elites for the year 2000. DO you think they could be that wise? http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Possibly, but it reminds me of my son explaining to our friends/business associates that "Santa must be pretty rich 'cause of the great ($100.) seats he gives him for MSG to see the Knicks and Rangers!"

Thanks for all the responses. I took the advice of several of you and sent a snailmail letter to John Dasburg and an email to the WorldPerks service center. I haven't heard anything from Mr. Dasburg, but I did get an email back from the service center. Basically it repeated the same thing they have on their web page. But they did add one interesting tidbit: "...World Business Class are no longer available from TransAtlantic coach fares beginning with the letter V, Q, H and M. This would be for European travel. The other areas, India, Middle East and Africa would not be effected by this." So, apparently you can still upgrade transatlantic - as long as you are continuing on to India, the Middle East or Africa!

I don't know. Maybe NW is going to put in business/first type of class for flights to Europe, i.e, matching up with CO. Thus more restrictive. Would make this new measure more sufferable. Well...

Of course, NW would surely improve its b class service with these restrictive measures (?)--let's just hope they don't attempt to copy CO's "30-day maybe or maybe not" upgrade policy.

My intuition is that there's got to be something else going on...let's hope so.

As many of you know, I have been NWA's cheerleader on this board. NWA has done many things for me which are above and beyond the call of duty. Individual and important NWA people know what I'm talking about.

However, I endured (1)OBNOXIOUS behavior by NWA personnel @DTW during April-August 1998 pre strike, (2) the Infamous Jan 2, 1999 DTW snowstorm upon arrival on the LAX redeye, after I had pleaded with NWA ground, goldline & worldperks people to let me take the LAX/MSP redeye - denied because I was ticketed to leave on 1/1/99 and the MSP redeye left on 1/2/99, a blackout date for perks travel.

I could have switched my allegiance to several other carriers in early 1999, but decided to stick with NWA because of the elite benefits, my flying pattern and the Alaska Air partnership.

Specifically, I have accumulated mucho miles in my ac intending to use them as I have in the past - (1)Free 1class to Japan and (2)low fare coach ticket to LGW and 40M upgrade to World Business Class.

I THINK THAT I SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE MY MILES ACCUMULATED PRIOR TO THE 10/7/99 MANIFESTO AND THOSE I WILL EARN ON MANY FUTURE TIX PURCHASED 9/99 FOR 10/99-12/99 ACCORDING TO THE PRIOR SYSTEM.

Any similar or dissenting views FTers?

There actually is some precedent for such an action as you suggest by NW, considering that years ago, many carriers including UA considered earlier/former equity miles from the pre Mileage bank stuff as "special," in that you could upgrade with any fare etc using these miles only! It helped to take away some of the sting and mitigate the changes for their then current elite flyers.

Doc- Thanks much for your comment.

The big question for me is WHERE'S MJW? In hiding?



[This message has been edited by knowitall (edited 10-19-1999).]

I'm speculating here, and a bit sanguine, perhaps.

Maybe there has been no response because the rationale for the changes (e.g., upgrade restrictions) are tied to some new benefits that cannot be announced yet. Hoping.

(Hmmmmmm, I can think of very few persons who would choose NW's business class at this point...)

Please see my e-mail posted separately. Make sure that if you have a problem with this change that you contact Northwest directly. Send a note to John Dasburg (CEO), Rick Dow, VP of Marketing and Worldperks or Raymond Vecchi, Ex. VP Customer Service.

Particularly if you are a elite memeber, Rick Dow can be called directly at (612)726-3910.

Because programs link current year travel with the following year's elite status and benefits, they should be required to give 2 years notice of any program changes, IMHO.

Absolutely! But to get not even a year?

[This message has been edited by doc (edited 10-19-1999).]

Looks like most FTers have given up on this issue & MJW has strategically disappeared, I have made a very significant NWA contact and will report asap on the results of my discussion.

[This message has been edited by knowitall (edited 10-25-1999).]

Yesterday I had a very good phone discussion with a top NWA honcho who I choose not to name.

The problem is REVENUE losses. Specifically:
1-Nearly every other airline does not permit European upgrades from low coach fares. NWA was taking a beating.

2-For example, today you can buy coach ORD/LGW for $350+ & BusClass for $5700; under the old system you could upgrade to WBC for 40M miles. Also today, coach ORD/NRT is $1200 and BusClass is $5600 & you can upgrade to WBC for 50M miles. Thus you can see that NWA was getting nearly 4x CASH revenue on the Tokyo upgrades to WBC vs London upgrades, while requiring similar miles, for the same $5600-$5700 value ticket.
I think you will have to spend in the $700+ area ORD/LGW to get a 40M WBC upgrade.

3-I mentioned all of my concerns - the abrupt announcement - desire to use miles earned prior to 10/99 under the old system - possibly extend the last flying date under the old system to 3/31/00 - possible coupons for Gold/Platinum elites allowing 2 annual roundtrip upgrades at lower fares.

4-I was told that top management is revisiting the issue & that perhaps some sort of "middle ground" will result. In the meantime, I feel that I/we have had the ear at the necessary NWA executive officer level & that we should await further communication from NWA.

[This message has been edited by knowitall (edited 10-27-1999).]

the revenue loss argument is fine but they could at least come up with a more reasonable / fair solution for loyal custoemrs. whom NW desperately need to retain.

also, NW WBC isn't that good if compared to the top airlines which restrict their upgrade classes.

well hopefully managment does revisit the issue as you mentioned and come up with this "middle ground"

thnaks for trying!

Legally you don't have much recourse, as the term and conditions of Worldperks clearly states:

"The WorldPerks program, awards, tickets and cities served are subject to change without notice by Northwest. Northwest assumes no liability for these changes."

Continental, on the other hand, has a 60 notice clause in their program.

You could always vote with you feet.

knowitall-
thanks for going the extra mile, and taking this to the appropriate (senior) level. i too hope a middle ground can be achieved (a couple of certs for gold/plat allowing upgrades the old way would be fine).

jexjex


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Thanks for the special effort knowitall!

Thanks also Knowitall. The only comment I have is that while the revenue loss may be theoretical, is it real? I have been on about 6 transatlantic NW flights from EWR/DTW/PHL. In virtually all of these there were plenty of empty WBC seats. By changing the policy, NW is saying that it intends to fill those seats with passengers paying $5,000+ for a seat tht many of us consider overpriced. I wonder how they intend to accomplissh this feat. If its far from full now with (I presume they know how many upgrade passengers there are), then it may be close to empty if they take out these passengers. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Also, it will be interesting to see what "middle ground" becomes. I for one, mihg be willing to cough up, say $50 OW in cash to defray the cost of meals, wine etc. I hope they find a reasonable solution.
Good job, knowitall.

Knowitall:

I agree, keep up the good work.

I do have a problem with the statement (by Northwest management?) that nearly every other airline will not allow trans-atlantic upgrades from their lowest fares.

I know of at least one rather significant competitor to NWA - American Airlines - that will allow such upgrades. I need to fly from Milwaukee to Frankfurt on December 2nd returning the 9th. NWA wants $519.73 for the roundtrip, but the fare is not upgradeabale. AA also wants $519.73 and the fare is upgradeable (and seats were available) with 50,000 Aadvantage miles! Our company insists that we fly on the lowest coach fare available for the travel itinerary. I wonder which airline NWA management thinks I'll fly on?

The impression I got is that NWA wants more cash revenue per upgraded ticket. I don't think they expect more people to pay $5M+ for WBC to Europe, but they don't want to upgrade $400 tix. I think you could get ORD/LGW for $700 & do the 40M mile upgrade. NWA uses DC10s to Europe with a 34 seat WBC configuration.

Wrote my letter regarding upgadable fare changes on int. tickets; I was explicit regarding the problem.

Just received a response from NW apologizing for not allowing "complimentary international upgrades"--an issue that I didn't even raise. Well, sending back NW's response along with my original letter.

A few days ago I received a written response from the NWA Sr Honcho I noted in my 10/27/99 posting above, reiterating that in early 1999 NWA had liberalized upgrade access to Europeean flights, but they found much greater usage than anticipated. The result had been a loss of revenue caused by WBC seats not being available to those willing to pay the $5M+ fare - not a good thing for a for profit business.

I'll keep FTers informed of anything else I learn.

if it is in such high demand, what is up with the thanksgiving sales over the past FIVE weeks? i've been in europe the past five thanskgivings and i always find full planes. that's what they get for flying such old boats with megaovercapacity.

twice before i have traveled in biz class on nw/klm; once from hkg-ams and once from jfk-ams. both times i got them for FREE by being just a little persistent with agents in the gate or the worldclubs about not liking my seat assignment. and this was before i even had status on the airline.

Oh my...I feel really badly that it is perceived that I left
FlyerTalk for strategic reasons. I want to assure everyone that
that is not the case at all. It's been purely a matter of time
(both work and personal time). Some time ago I signed up to
organize a conference and it has taken much more time than I ever
dreamed it could. Fortunately, the event is next week...then I can
have my life back! A co-worker mentioned that she had seen comments
on FlyerTalk about my absence and I felt I needed to respond. I'm
alive and well and my presence/absence on FT has nothing to do with
any Northwest or WorldPerks strategy (other than to look for ways to
be responsive to our customers).

On to the topic of this thread...
Not sure who knowitall spoke with, but revenue is indeed the issue.
In fact, the numbers were so compelling that we had no choice but to
implement the change quickly. Regretably, the short notice upset a
number of members. Most days it's a great thing to work in WorldPerks.
That day wasn't so good. I also want to dispel any speculation that
this was a long-planned tactic. It truly wasn't.

Give me one more week's grace period and I will get FT back into
my regular schedule. If I ever have to leave for good, I will
let everyone know.

Glad to finally hear from you! Welcome back MJW!