knowitall-
thanks for going the extra mile, and taking this to the appropriate (senior) level. i too hope a middle ground can be achieved (a couple of certs for gold/plat allowing upgrades the old way would be fine).

jexjex


------------------

Thanks for the special effort knowitall!

Thanks also Knowitall. The only comment I have is that while the revenue loss may be theoretical, is it real? I have been on about 6 transatlantic NW flights from EWR/DTW/PHL. In virtually all of these there were plenty of empty WBC seats. By changing the policy, NW is saying that it intends to fill those seats with passengers paying $5,000+ for a seat tht many of us consider overpriced. I wonder how they intend to accomplissh this feat. If its far from full now with (I presume they know how many upgrade passengers there are), then it may be close to empty if they take out these passengers. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Also, it will be interesting to see what "middle ground" becomes. I for one, mihg be willing to cough up, say $50 OW in cash to defray the cost of meals, wine etc. I hope they find a reasonable solution.
Good job, knowitall.

Knowitall:

I agree, keep up the good work.

I do have a problem with the statement (by Northwest management?) that nearly every other airline will not allow trans-atlantic upgrades from their lowest fares.

I know of at least one rather significant competitor to NWA - American Airlines - that will allow such upgrades. I need to fly from Milwaukee to Frankfurt on December 2nd returning the 9th. NWA wants $519.73 for the roundtrip, but the fare is not upgradeabale. AA also wants $519.73 and the fare is upgradeable (and seats were available) with 50,000 Aadvantage miles! Our company insists that we fly on the lowest coach fare available for the travel itinerary. I wonder which airline NWA management thinks I'll fly on?

The impression I got is that NWA wants more cash revenue per upgraded ticket. I don't think they expect more people to pay $5M+ for WBC to Europe, but they don't want to upgrade $400 tix. I think you could get ORD/LGW for $700 & do the 40M mile upgrade. NWA uses DC10s to Europe with a 34 seat WBC configuration.

Wrote my letter regarding upgadable fare changes on int. tickets; I was explicit regarding the problem.

Just received a response from NW apologizing for not allowing "complimentary international upgrades"--an issue that I didn't even raise. Well, sending back NW's response along with my original letter.

A few days ago I received a written response from the NWA Sr Honcho I noted in my 10/27/99 posting above, reiterating that in early 1999 NWA had liberalized upgrade access to Europeean flights, but they found much greater usage than anticipated. The result had been a loss of revenue caused by WBC seats not being available to those willing to pay the $5M+ fare - not a good thing for a for profit business.

I'll keep FTers informed of anything else I learn.

if it is in such high demand, what is up with the thanksgiving sales over the past FIVE weeks? i've been in europe the past five thanskgivings and i always find full planes. that's what they get for flying such old boats with megaovercapacity.

twice before i have traveled in biz class on nw/klm; once from hkg-ams and once from jfk-ams. both times i got them for FREE by being just a little persistent with agents in the gate or the worldclubs about not liking my seat assignment. and this was before i even had status on the airline.

Oh my...I feel really badly that it is perceived that I left
FlyerTalk for strategic reasons. I want to assure everyone that
that is not the case at all. It's been purely a matter of time
(both work and personal time). Some time ago I signed up to
organize a conference and it has taken much more time than I ever
dreamed it could. Fortunately, the event is next week...then I can
have my life back! A co-worker mentioned that she had seen comments
on FlyerTalk about my absence and I felt I needed to respond. I'm
alive and well and my presence/absence on FT has nothing to do with
any Northwest or WorldPerks strategy (other than to look for ways to
be responsive to our customers).

On to the topic of this thread...
Not sure who knowitall spoke with, but revenue is indeed the issue.
In fact, the numbers were so compelling that we had no choice but to
implement the change quickly. Regretably, the short notice upset a
number of members. Most days it's a great thing to work in WorldPerks.
That day wasn't so good. I also want to dispel any speculation that
this was a long-planned tactic. It truly wasn't.

Give me one more week's grace period and I will get FT back into
my regular schedule. If I ever have to leave for good, I will
let everyone know.

Glad to finally hear from you! Welcome back MJW!

MJW Welcome Back !!!

I'm sure you can help bring some sense
to the abrupt NW change.

I'd be interested in what the compelling numbers are, i.e., the thrust of the analysis. The current policy/change doesn't follow simply and easily from the premise of revenue. Some general points:

1)
Why now, why immediately? Revenue does not necessarily dictate why the current change was implemented in the WAY that it was implemented. Revenue can still dictate the change, but why couldn't it have been handled differently? Did NW want to avoid having fliers locking in upgradable fares, etc.? Moreover, it seems as if this "revenue" impetus was either known well ahead of time, and NW decided to give no notice, or NW has "sudden" business forcasting revelations that arise. Again, NW, why the MANNER of the change/notice? It certainly could/should have been done differently.

2)
I do not see why NW cannot implement a restrictive policy (somewhat akin to CO's domestic upgrade (via miles) policy), in which perhaps a few seats be allocated for upgrade (on any fare, using miles) while most are held as revenue seats until the day of departure. I cannot see why this wouldn't be more efficient in both providing the revenue, while providing for frequent flyers with seats (and this also provides NW with revenue). Help me understand this.

3) What is NW's current competitive analysis of its WBC produce as compared to CO's BF and that of other carriers? Of course if NW has no competition on certain routes, then fine. Please justify why a particular fare with 40k miles for an upgrade to WBC would be of similar value with 40k miles on other arlines? (even with CO's 30 day "maybe upgrade policy" it would seem that BF is far superior to WBC)? i.e., is WBC really a good value, at this point, for most people?

4)
What is egregious about the fare/upgrade change is that upgrade miles just devalued by as much as 50 percent, in some cases, given that one would now have to pay twice the fare price.

Certainly there are those who quip that it's just revenue and that's too bad and (perhaps) one has no right to complain. "That's just business." Well, this is fallacious. Airlines got to make a buck, certainly, but frequent flyer programs are part of that buck, otherwise they wouldn't exist. Moreover, changes can be changed (even ones predicated on revenue) when the customer complains, because it's the customer who ulitmately dictates revenue. Let's see if NW knows its customers as well as it thinks.

NW, you certainly have the right to make a change, and to do so at the expense of your frequent flyers (in the most direct sense). However, given some of the aforementioned points (and others) I am dubious that your revenue argument will prove itself true, or that at leaset it could not be maximized further without the current change/policy (negative) for WPerks members. It is somewhat unreasonable to really be given the proof of your analysis, but the questions begged to be asked.

mjw: welcome back. you were sorely missed.

jeff lewis2: i second all your sentiments (see past posts of mine on this thread). i too have many reservations about the upgrade change---not just in the way it in which it was announced (no notice? a spur of the moment decision?) but also the "revenue capture" reasoning behind it.

i will be taking a business class trip soon (i was lucky enough to upgrade under the old rules ... would not have if someone here hadn't posted notice of the change back in early october). i bet a lot of those seats go unoccupied (again, why the thanksgiving b-class seat sale fare to AMS if demand is so high?).

last, i too hope NW hears us loyal customers crying foul. some middle ground must be obtainable (i like holding a select number of seats upgradeable at lower fares for elite members, this cannot be all that difficult on their end).

MJW would love to hear from you once/if the upper echelone at NW work out a compromise.

jexjex

MJW-Welcome back & sorry for the obvious hostility during your "away" time. You could easily figure out who I've been talking to @ NWA.

Interesting link to a discussion about this topic. This poster details the history of upgrading on discounted coach fares for international flights, going back to 1993:

http://x43.deja.com/[ST_rn=md]/getdoc.xp?AN=538240135&CONTEXT=942811803.124131738 5& .

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 11-17-1999).]