Input from FTers on B787 Dreamliner Seating and Interior Configuration
 

On Friday 10/28 TheZipper and I met with Suzanne Boda, VP - Inflight and Laura Liu VP - International Marketing and Sales at Northwest's World HQ in Eagan, MN.

During our meeting it was brought up that Suzanne and Laura are responsible for configuring the B787 Dreamliner.

As the Boeing USA Launch Customer I thought Fters might want to comment on the features and ammenities we feel NWA should consider.

This is a great opportunity to present our thoughts, as frequent flyers and NWA pax, we know a lot about the present a/c and our feedback might help make the final configuration, overhead bins, closets, lavatories, galleys, etc even better.

I am sure all comments here will be read by the team working on the configuration of this new a/c.

RC

Can never have too much overhead space. IFE with back-of-seat screens, etc., would be nice, especially with DirectTV (if possible). 38-40-inch pitch leather FC seats, 34-inch pitch in coach, cup/glassholders in the drink "platform" between FC seats so I don't worry about knocking my drink over would all be dandy. This all domestic, BTW.

Int'l, the new WBC seats are nice enough, although better reliability would be good. Greater pitch for coach, of course, plus more overhead space would be neato.

The rest of the improvements I want have nothing to do with Boeing.

Radiocycle

Thanks for starting this discussion and bringing the feedback back to NWA . Also I guess that means that NW intends to go ahead with B787 at the full speed.

This is on my wishlist:
-Internet on board.
-I like the current WBC seats so they can stay :) But an RJ45 port is welcome :)
-Power outlets in the whole coach section
-Better food in coach. I know they improved somewhat in last 1/2 year in TATL, but still another improvement is welcome.
-Place AVOD boxes somehow differently (or shrink them) so that they were not taking some much space under the seats.

Can never go wrong with more overhead space.

At seat power plugs!

This may also be dumb, but better or bigger instructions posted on the outside of lavatory doors on how to open them. I don't know but I always notice people seem to have a problem figuring out how to open those doors.

Domestic FC seats or old WBC seats as economy seats, but that would be dreaming right heh, it is the DREAMLINER!

Thanks for the opportunity to provide input! At the top of my wishlist are wider seats for coach, or maybe the same seat width but a tad bit more space between adjacent seats. An inch or two would make a huge difference for me! Individual armrests would be great, of course (i.e. one for me and one for my neigbour). I am tall (6'3"), but given a choice between more pitch or more width, my vote is for wider seats.

- Martin

Second the motion on width versus pitch but doubt they will sacrifice that much revenue. I would like to see more closet space in all cabins -- the old DC10s had those suiter-hanger contraptions behind the movie screens that were excellent. Power for laptops, portable DVD players, etc. is more important than full Internet access. And how about a specially certified, guaranteed enthusiastic 787-dedicated inflight service staff... so the excitement of the new airplane isn't diluted by human factors, as happens now on the A330?

The new B787's will have wireless connections for AVOD
 

The new B787's will have wireless within the a/c, so there will not be any boxes (as we have in the A330-200/300) so storage space in coach should be much better (under the seat in front of your seat) than what presently exists in the current fleet.

RC

Wireless internet would be amazing IMO.

Thing is.. what are the proposed specs of the interior?

I saw the demo on Boeing.com and it looks pretty cool ^ ^

Regarding overhead bin space.....make the bins an inch or two deeper, so that more bags can go in perpendicular to the bin. And before they get bought and installed, actually test them on real-life carryons. Get some Tumi's and Travelpro's and the like and actually see if they fit. Or better yet, take some of the proposed bins to the WC's in MSP, DTW and some other stations and have members try out their bags in the new bins - and get real-life data!

Adjustable reading lamps and effective air vents also go on my list. Adjustable headrests in both F and Y. Leather seating, at least in F if not the whole plane (I gather they have lower lifespan costs, IIRC).

Just how wide is this aircraft? Is it 767 width, 330 or 777?? Kill the middle seats whenever possible.

Probably a few more things, but that's it for now.

List of requests...
 

Although my flying is 60%/40% Y to J, these comments are strictly about Y. I'm sure J will be fine. So my comments will refer to Y unless otherwise noted.

The Boeing website says the 787 is twin-aisle.

IMHO, the best config in economy... 767s with 2-3-2. Would love to see 2-3-2 seating, if not then 2-4-2 like on 330. I will avoid 777 and 747 like the plague when in economy because of the threesome seating (3-3-3 and 3-4-3).

How about front section of economy w/ 34" pitch for elites, and Y-/B-fares?

Depending on the plane layout, I would also love to see a tiny forward Y cabin like on CO's 767-200s... should be exclusively for elites. Row 16-18 are pretty nice!

I like the variable sun shades that can be electronically dimmed... I hope they don't give up on that one.

Lavs at the FRONT AND BACK of each cabin. That way people can get up during meal service. If you have 3-section cabin (J/Y/Y) why don't they put J lav at very front (Door No 1), then shared or one-each J+Y lav at first section break (usually Door No 2), and then more lavs at each section. How annoying is it on the 333 that they won't let you use the J lav if you're seated in Row 10 so you have to wait forever to go even though you finished your ....ty meal 20 mins ago! :(

No IFE boxes taking up legroom, although RC says this is reality. Hope he's right!

Winged headrests.

Foot cutouts at bulkheads.

Individual air vents. Miss those when I fly the DC-10.

Footrests in Y.

WIFI.

I'm assuming laptop power (actual socket, not that empower rubbish) and personal AVOD is a given as it's on the A330.

I can echo what most have said. Bigger bins, footrests, wider seats. One thing that always seems dumb, is that even on new planes they have ashtrays in the lavatory. It´s seem so dumb to show a graphic for smoking at eye level, and then higher up have all the no smoking signs.

Internet would be great, as would IFE, live TV would make the time on long flights go much easier.

How about a real leap in WBC service like Virgin and BA are doing? True lie flat beds and office suite configurations with work stations for the seats in business class. There was a very good article in the Wall Street Journal about enhanced service levels in business class with pictures.

I assume these planes will primarily or exclusively be used for transoceanic flights. Comments below are for economy and what can be done to the plane's interior -- not things that can be done to service (food, etc.).

* Ethernet/wifi, power, and no boxes under coach seats would be huge improvements.

* Similar individual vents and reading lights as on the A330s

* Lavs all in the back -- this is a relatively small widebody plane, and wouldn't it be nice if everyone congregated in the back? Perhaps make that rear galley a bit more passenger friendly, with space made specifically for passengers to get a drink of OJ, water, or whatever.

* Although more legroom would be nice, I would prefer that each passenger has their own armrest, not a 2" wide armrest to share with their neighbor.

* Similar AVOD system as A330s but make the screens slightly larger and more moveable. When the person in front of you reclines on the A330s, it can be difficult to move the screen so that the video is still viewable, especially for tall passengers.

* Do NOT put the flight attendant call button with the video controller.

Thanks Radiocycle, Suzanne, and Laura. If you're looking for someone to volunteer to serve on some customer input panel, sign me up!

WBC:Y ratio
 

RC,

The most important factor, IMHO, is the ratio between WBC and Y seats.

NW 744--- 65:338 roughly 1:5

NW 332--- 32:211 about 1:7

NW 333--- 34:264 about 1:8

UA 744 (FC/BC)--- 87:260 about 1:3 (and 1/3 of Y is E+)

UA 777 (FC/BC)--- 61:198 about 1:3

There are way too few WBC seats on 332/333 which makes upgrade extremely impossible. Therefore NW could not afford any SWUs like UA because the demand for WBC is so high. The consequence is that high mileage international flyers (100k/yr) leave NW. Who wants to sit in NW's cramped Y for long international flights with virtually small hope of upgrade and no E+? This is a huge mistake by NW in my view.

NW should carefully design 787 and maintain at least 1:5 or even 1:4, 1:3 WBC/Y ratio.

As a math professor, I pay particular attention to numbers. :cool: :cool:

Thank you for doing this!

* No cellphone access, and preferably no in-seat phone-type thing

* 2-3-2 seating would be excellent, but I also doubt they would lose that much revenue.

* Something for the elites! Bulkhead separated cabin, a little extra seat pitch/width/recline, something.

* better lumbar support -- dunno if this is a Boeing thing or something that can be configured by NW or aftermarket

* errata: footrests, personal airvents, LED reading lights as opposed to halogen/incandecent/fluorescent. Pick up an LED flashlight sometime. They're cheap, and I think you'll like the light quality a lot better.

---

Glad to hear that AVOD will be wireless. That should free up some precious legroom. Overhead bins are fine, IMO. I think people carry-on too much as it is, or they overpack. :D Besides, I think that might be something that Boeing can't change.

Honestly, gang, someone really needs to explain to me what some people's angry, almost militant objection to any kind of telephone usage on airplanes is. I cannot WAIT to be able to continue being productive for five friggin' hours in the air. I hear people comlaining abot "yelling into cell phones". I have used cell phones since 1988 and I don't think I have ever once YELLED into one. This should be no different than if I were seated next to or across the aisle from someone who I am having a business meeting with while in the air, which I do with my boss quite a bit.

I have filed reply comments with the FCC in favor of in flight cell phone usage. I really don't see why there cannot be a compromise met between those of us who want to keep in contact and be productive during what is normally hours upon hours of useless down time, and those who feel that an airplane should be their own private coccoon of inaccessibility. Again, feel free to flame me all you want, but please don't use the phrase "yelling into..." because I have never done so. I don't think it's unreasonalbe to havet he FAs tell someone who is to shut the hell up either.

Having said all this, INTERNET ACCESS!! (That way, I can use my VoIP program and make and receive calls anyway...) So at least we can still conduct business ojn the internet.

But, I know all of this is something that I will NEVER be able to use since I don't travel internationally and NW seems to limit any kind of decent in flight amenity (food, entertainment...) to only international routes.

-Paul

9x14x22 fits straight in
 

I will echo the overhead bin space issue. By making the overhead bins fit the largest carryon allowed straight in, there would be a lot more space.

I have heard Jet Blue put in more overhead space, making business travelers very happy, and reducing the cost of transporting luggage as people lugged their own.

Even overseas, there would be some trips with carryon only if the bin is big enough.

I would also like to second no cell phone access. Even if people are not "yelling", it is disruptive. The cabins are too small with people too close together, that you can't help hearing half a conversation, and that is irritating. The plane is the one place I finally just can't be bothered by anyone else, and could actually get work done, or watch a movie, etc.

That's hilarious. I was at HQ all day Friday as well...meeting some management for non-FT stuff.

Sounds like the seating layout is pretty well set in stone.

I'm all for less seat pitch in coach is it makes more WBC seats available.

Dump AVOD in coach unless you can get rid of the big bulky box.

Steve

The IFE Box is GONE - all wireless AVOD
 

The IFE Boxes we presently see on the B747-400/200, DC10-30 and A330-300/200 will be gone on the B787. The new technology being used is all wireless on the a/c. This should help in allowing better storage under the seat (in front) in the main cabin of the B-787.

RC

Ok, I'll bite. But keep in mind, this probably isn't the right forum for this discussion...but you started it. ;)

The problem with cellphone use (nobody mentioned yelling except you Paul) is, as mentioned, the close confines of these aircraft. It's not so much that people disagree with your desire to be productive. Most of us would like to either be productive or just completely relax after a long week of work/day of traveling, etc. That's where the problem comes in. Even normal conversation becomes disruptive inside a small cocoon that is an aircraft interior. Ever notice how you can hear conversations going on from several rows ahead/behind you? I usually can, and I don't have particularly sensitive hearing. More likely example, though: You're in 1A, your seatmate in 1B wants to sleep in the worst way. So you "angle" your speech away from them in order to be considerate. But the acoustics of the cabin will transmit your conversation much further than you would expect in a more normal setting. Seatmate can't sleep, and can't move to another seat, and doesn't feel like they should have to. So, your seatmate arrives at the destination more tired and/or stressed than when they boarded the aircraft. And the talk about having a meeting with your boss airborne is a strawman. Chances are you two are seated together and you both agreed to be discussing business matters for however long you want. Your random seatmate, however, didn't enter into such a contract when you flipped open your phone.

It's all about being considerate to the other pax. Note how IFE goes to headphones rather than overhead speakers? You don't fly internationally, so it's maybe 5 hours at most that you're without a cellphone connection? The comprimise you speak of is using your laptop and utilizing email, Instant Messaging, etc. This is a comprimise everyone can accept. You can still communicate, your seatmate gets to sleep, enjoy that novel, crunch some numbers, or whatever they may like to do.

It is? :( I was just thinking that a UA-style E+ equivalent (at least for elites) would be a great idea. Do you know what the layout is supposed to be?

Right on target, BOS-NWA!!!

This is, to me, THE most important issue.

-RKG

Consider all options
 

I've noticed that both Boeing and Airbus, when they launch a new aircraft, always illustrate it with seats which we never see ever again. They also use weird sizes of business class that aren't used any more, then say 'hey - look we can get [impossibly large No] of passengers on board!'. One company that's really thought about this is Thompson Solutions, what about considering their seat layout: http://www.airlinequality.com/Produc...son-seat-2.htm

There's both an economy and a first design, they give more space, more legroom and more seats per aircraft!

I would like to see a radical change in aircraft interior, preferably by someone who actually sits in one of the seats for perhaps 11 hours at a stretch.

Some others:

DON'T put electronics boxes under the seat in front so all leg room is obliterated.
DO put many more compartments and spaces around the seat so people can keep things they need in reach, make them specially for particular objects eg a laptop slot, a bottle holder, a cup holder.
DON'T forget that in winter, many pax will have a coat - oh yeah, even coach pax need these! So give them a wardrobe! Even Aeroflot does this!
DO recognise that we all need much faster more seamless access to the internet/telephony - so provide it
DON'T put the sockets for electricity/headphones/phone/IT stuff in an inaccessible location that can snap off easily if you move around
DO recognise that people *should* move around the plane, so make it easier in terms of layout. Put in an exercise area, even if it's only a back stretching bar like on SAS long-haul.
DON'T force kids to sit still for long periods
DO provide a play corner - *away* from the premium cabins ;-)
DON'T assume we want to put luggage high up - low down is safer and easier.
DO make provision for ill passengers. There are several inflight emergencies that simple first aid mandates that the victim should be laid flat or even slightly head-down - can't do that on most planes, and this simple failure causes strokes and other permanent damage even in a simple faint.
DON'T assume that pax gathering in areas is a security risk - they should all have been screened, if they haven't why are they on the plane? Make areas where people can talk in groups, get a drink or a snack and stretch their legs, or even go somewhere else to make a phone call.
DO make provision for people travelling alone - they may not want to sit next to others, single seats are common on trains (which have a smaller cross section), but for some reason are only provided in some first classes.
DON'T assume people want to have the window blinds shut/open (787 blurb makes a big fuss about completely unnecessary and expensive LCD shutter type windows). The world is divided into those that want to travel in the dark and those that don't. You'll never get them to accept the other's point of view, so accomodate them both.
DO make more use of all the exits on a plane. Come the A380 we're going to see more boarding points per plane, and so the airports are going to have to have docks with multiple airbridges - so consider putting premium seats in alternative locations on the aircraft. Presumably the same airbridges would be able to service multiple doors at once on a 787?
DON'T assume that 'downstairs' is unavailable. If domestic cargo loads are dropping, use the space for pax or px amenities. Airbus are already licensed for this (e.g. Virgin have had plans to although they don't currently use it, LH have all the coach lavatories in the cargo hold). Why not design in the space at this stage for the 787?
DO consider Virgin Trains (Sir Richard Branson's UK train company) technique of having little LED signs above each seat with the passenger name on. Then you know which is your seat, which ones are free, etc.
DON'T rely on tradition and hoping that you've put enough newspapers, meals of each choice, etc on board - ask people when they (electronically) check in, and only upload exactly what you need.

OK - enough already. Let us know what's coming for the 787 when it eventually arrives!

T/Oe

more votes
 

NW's launch of the A330 has had an enormous impact in changing NW's reputation as an airline stuck in the DC10/DC9 era.

NW did a very good job with it, especially 2-4-2 seating, keep up the great work on the 787!

My votes:
- Wi-Fi (c'mon NW, if IFE is wireless, then adding Connexcion will be so easy!)
- Biz: Love the earlier suggestion of some sort of "well" for drink cups.
- Decent reading lights (A333's are too focused to read a newspaper)
- Adjustable headrests like on A333!
- Coach: how about an extra/mini/dedicated seatpocket for water bottles, like a lot of backpacks have.

I beg to differ
 

True, A330 changed NW's image with out-dated DC10/9. And it has a lot of good features.

But, A330 has sucn a dismal WBC/Y ratio, perhaps the lowest in the industry. A333 has a total of 298 seats, and only 11% of them are in the premium cabin. :td: :td: I don't know how many people realized. Good job? Hardly.

This is totally insane. :mad: :mad: It's like NW did not want premium pax on board who either pay J fare or who are high mileage flyers and have miles to upgrade to C.

So I would say that A330 has only reinforced NW's image as cattle class carrier. Combined with no E+ seating, it ranks very low as far as international flyers are concerned.

I cannot WAIT to get away from passengers like you after five frigging hours in the air.
Dave

Phones
 

I wouldn´t mind someone who talks for 5 or 10 minutes. However, you´ll get those people who go on, and on, and on and will never stop. Even now, listening to the self blathering fools who don´t or won´t turn their phones off when the door closes.

I´d rather sit in the smoking section. (Okay, that´s a lie)

Make a cell phone section that we can throw all the cell phone users and cry babies. These may be the same people in some circumstances. :)

If there could be some sort of sound shield, I would have no problems at all with this. I just find that some airline travellers are very inconsiderate, and peace and quiet on a long trip reduces the stress greatly.

I wouldn´t mind using VoIP myself, (I got rid of my cellphone after 15 years, since they´re evil. ;) onboard, but don´t see how it could be fair and non disruptive to everyone onboard. Perhaps allow calls the first hour or two, and then the last hour?

AMEN!

I echo the good professor's sentiments. What is one of the main reasons that domestically we can get upgrades? NWA has a lot of FC seats in the domestic fleet (subject to change in the very near future as it looks more and more likely). The other thing as others have noted that would make me happy is laptop power. With that I can stay both productive and entertained.

For some reason, I feel like I was just yelled at! :rolleyes:

I agree with most of what has been said here, especially:

IFE- Not only wireless (which sounds great!) but a little more selection. I love SQ's Krisworld, 13 hours SIN-LHR went by like a breeze. More movies, TV shows, songs, games... a beautiful system. And how about some nice big screens! Think SQ A345

Lounge- Even a small area with a standing bar, and a couple of windows would be great. Many people like to get up and walk, and stretch, and this area would be great. Again, think SQ A345.

Headrests with wings, and footrests- These can do a world of good.

Will we ever get a special paint job airplane at NW? We could start with a 787! Any ideas...

Things I'd like to see in 787
 

IFE - The screens on the back of the seat should be hinged on top so should the seat recline, the screen could still be pulled out to see. The one I saw on A333, did NOT allow easy viewing when the seat reclined.
Bus/Coach seat ratio - The ratio should be higher since the transoceanic flights are where people try to upgrade into business class to enjoy the luxury, what exists, during the long flight.
WiFi and gadgets - WiFi should be a default by 2008. Cell phone usage should be left off. The electric socket should be easily reacheable and more than one per seat.
I sure hope NWA makes this a showcase airplane!

HJ

I know we all want to upgrade to WBC, but NW is going to do what makes money sense to them. Putting in a bunch of WBC seats, only to fill a lot of them with non-rev pax just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Most NW FC pax are not paying customers
 

I respectfully disagree.

Take NW's FC for example. NW puts in a bunch of FC seats on A319/320, 757, and even DC9. How many pax are paying FC? I bet not many. Most of them actually got it for free. Does it make a lot of sense?

Yes, at least NW thought so. Such high FC/Y ratio, perhaps highest in the industry for domestic planes, attracts elites who fly domestically and generates loyalty.

For the same reason, incredibly low WBC/Y ratio on A330s is pushing elites who mainly fly international routes away from NW. How can you attract those high mileage flyers when you can't even offer them upgrade to WBC using miles? :confused:

Only the stakes are higher for the international routes because Pacific flights are the cash cow for carriers like NW and UA. There is no debate on that.

Comparing NW's domestic FC strategy and their Internation WBC strategy is like comparing apples to oranges.

A much higher percentage of international WBC flyers are paying passengers. NW has always had fairly strict policies about sitting up front internationally, in part, because when you fly with them a lot, you will ALWAYS get a seat up front domestically, space provided.

Not that I wouldn't like more availability up front too, but we must realize that this has been the way NW has chosen to operate. When you fly across the ocean, it is NOT easy to get up front.

These two sentences confused me. The latter is correct. The former, however, is only true domestically.

Sorry, your right, I worded it awkwardly, and fixed it!

Self Serve Galley in coach
 

I'm not talking about meal service but wouldn't it be nice to be able to get your own water, soda, coffee or even a beer during the flight? Many times I've gone to the galley and was made to feel like I was intruding for simply asking for a cup of coffee.

Since we constantly hear about the poor service or how the FA's disappear on long flights perhaps it's time to actually put a vending machine on TA\TP flights? The system could be controlled by a dispenser equipped with a bar scanner that is linked a boarding pass database. Could be a great tool when they start charging for everything in the future.

May sound crazy but hey you asked for input!

Flying up front dom. and int. just don't compare in terms of amenities, so the tougher requirements for int. make some sense. Having said that another tier of seating for int. with more space but Y service, upgradeable in the same way way as dom. FC makes a lot of sense. Throw a few scraps to the frequent travelers, keep Biz for paying customers.

Like most of the suggestions here:

*wireless AVOD/internet great
*no phones please (AND implement vo/ip blocking on wifi). If you can't survive with text chat you are important enough to get your own jet :D A small "work" cube in a corner of biz could maybe take care of the most pressing needs?
*2-x-2 seating