jackal

Montreal likely has a large supply of cheap labor and competitive options for housekeeping, keeping prices down. I can't speak to higher-end properties in Maine, but the farmhouse bedroom I stayed at in Maine was clearly just a side gig as a way to make money for the old, retired guy who lived there. The room was fine, but it certainly wasn't cleaned to hotel standards.

The area my property is in has a pretty low cost of living, so my housekeeper charges me about $65 for a two-bedroom unit.

I am not familiar with the Hawaii market, but knowing what I do know about Hawaii and the cost of living there, I am not at all surprised that housekeeping services would charge significantly more than in my locale. We also don't know (unless he has stated) what Finkface's property size is--he may well have a four-bedroom place or something, which would make $130 much less "odious."

It's fairly (IME) standard in the vacation rental industry to pass housekeeping charges along to guests at cost. "Cost" in my location is $65. Cost in Hawaii is $130. Cost in rural Alabama might be much cheaper than in urban Seattle--it varies by market, but the end result is that the owner is simply passing along what he or she actually pays to the guest. Your argument really doesn't make any sense. You're saying that in a cheap location, owners should charge cost (since that cost is "fair" and "reasonable"), but in an expensive location (like Hawaii), owners should take a loss? How on earth is that logical?

Cleaning is a service every guest uses once. It makes 100% perfect sense to me that each guest should pay for that service exactly what it costs. Unbundling it from the rental rate keeps it absolutely fair for everyone, since everyone then pays for their fair share of the consumed product. It's not like a hotel, where there's daily maid service and so it's fine and fair to include it in the room rate (since you're in effect paying for exactly what you consume, and also, with low-paid full-time staff and a large block of rooms to spread those costs over and smaller rooms that don't take as long to clean, the per-room cost of cleaning are relatively smaller than in a vacation home).

In any case, I don't know why people here are trying to argue anything about cleaning fees. Finkface and I very well could be swayed by your points and decide to stop charging cleaning fees. But 95% of everyone else in our markets will still charge them, so arguing that cleaning fees are evil here is basically pointless. (Plus, if we did stop charging them, it would put us at a competitive disadvantage if we instead raise our rates to compensate for the loss of the cleaning fee, because the market normal practice is to charge them.)

But whatever. My rates and fees are (fortunately) set based on my competitive set and what my market will bear and not based on what some FTers think should be the case. And with ~90% occupancy since I started this, I don't have any particular reason to change.

ChinaShrek

I am not trying to argue that they are evil. I am arguing that if you want to attract customers for one or two night stays based entirely on price then you should charge low cleaning fees. I also think many people who look at Airbnb are price sensitive and are looking to save some money as compared to hotel booking sites. Cleaning fees don't help people save money.

travelmad478

Bold/italics mine. One- or two-night stays from people who are attracted only by price are the last thing I want to attract, to be honest. My rooms are not the cheapest in the area, and there’s a reason why: they are nicer, and I am a good host who cares about giving people a good experience. If someone is only in it to get the cheapest room available, I don’t want them. (That said, my rooms are still significantly cheaper than any hotel that doesn’t have roaches running across the floor. Plus you get a friendly and knowledgeable host, excellent coffee, a whole house and yard to run around in, and free laundry facilities.)

Finkface

Again, this is spot on. I couldn't have said it any better. Well, except for the fact that Finkface is a 'she'.

My cleaning service is very cheap for Hawaii at $130/clean. I use the cleaning services of one of our building's largest management companies. They let a small group of individual owners use them for cleaning only (not full management) and I am one of the lucky ones. I have friends in the building, as well as one friend who manages a huge number of units, and they pay $165 and up per clean. Plus, we all pay annual linen fees, mine is $430/year, to use the sheets and towels of our cleaning companies. This is so they can just swap out linens. That is the way it works in my area. Good luck finding an individual cleaner and/or a company that will do your laundry rather than using commercial linens/laundries.
Exactly. If someone is looking for the cheapest possible place, that is most definitely not the guest I want. If they are willing to stay in some fleabag to save a few bucks, then they are not the kind of guests that are my target demographic. I price my place high enough to get quality guests, but low enough relative to other units in my building to be very desirable. That, coupled with the fact that my condo and my service is top notch, is the reason I am booked 100% of the year and have nothing but 5 star, amazing reviews. And again, I definitely do not want anyone for one or two nights. I don't just automatically accept anyone who contacts me. I have no problem turning down people who I don't feel are a good fit. I am very picky about who I choose as guests and have never had a single problem.

jackal

Mind blown. You develop a certain mental image of FTers after years and years of conversation, and then you find something out about them (or meet them in person!) and there's always a bit of shock.

travelmad478

travelmad478 is also a “she,” in case anyone was wondering

Finkface

I know! I was shocked when I found out MSPeconomist was a she. Some of the people I've met on here are polar opposites of what I had imagined. But I do talk a lot about Mr. Fink in my posts. Not that that necessarily gives it away either.

I asked you once about the Alaska do. I felt that I wouldn't fit in because I am not a guy.

Mauibaby2008

Mauibaby2008 is a guy

Lol stupid username once I realized I was at like 500 posts didn’t want to create another

jackal

Actually, a related point just occurred to me. Right after I purchased and closed on my property, I loaded and set up my Airbnb listing. Within the span of a day, I had three bookings. I thought, "Wow, this is fantastic!" They were short stays (2-3 days), but hey, filling a brand-new listing's calendar out is always good. Then, the next day, I got another booking--this time for a single night. I thought, "Who on earth would book for a single night and pay that big cleaning fee when they could have gotten two hotel rooms for cheaper?" I looked into the reservation and noticed there was no cleaning fee charged at all. Oops--I had somehow forgotten to list the cleaning fee. I quickly rectified that, and of course incoming bookings slowed down a bit, but I still had these four bookings to take care of.

It may have actually been a good thing in the end, because reports from some industry experts say that a property is given a bit of an artificial boost in the search rankings in the first month or two, and then its long-term placement is determined based on how the conversions and reviews generated from that, so I was able to capture some business I otherwise might not have gotten and turn it into 4 positive reviews.

But it wasn't easy. Three of those four bookings clearly had hotel-level expectations--I recall one guest calling and texting me several times immediately after arriving at the property because they couldn't figure out things, like the EcoBee thermostat or how to use the TiVo controller or whatever. All three of those guests also left the place in quite a bit of a mess and didn't follow any of the check-out instructions (stripping beds, starting towels in the laundry, removing trash, etc.). One of them was the one I mentioned upthread that left the property an absolute pig-sty with grease splattered everywhere (the one I had to block off an extra day after they left to give my housekeeper an extra day to clean). The housekeeper was fortunately very patient and chalked everything up to a new owner learning the ropes--she didn't even charge me extra for the two-day clean. It was a little stressful to have to deal with these dirty, needy guests--and then make almost no money from them because I was giving half the rental income to my housekeeper (since I hadn't collected the extra cleaning fee).

It taught me, though, that even if you have a smaller, lower cost property, it doesn't make sense to aim for the bottom of the barrel, because you'll attract a different quality of guest. I am likely not nearly as picky as Finkface and will accept most people who contact me (and have all of the instant booking/online payments/etc. settings turned on for Airbnb/VRBO/Flipkey, etc.), but I find that simply having that cleaning fee and keeping my rate in the middle of the pack for my competitive set and being super-responsive (within minutes, usually) means I'm still able to fill my calendar while pulling guests from the vacation-rental-customer pool rather than the Days-Inn-Econo-Lodge pool. Pricing too low--and not charging that cleaning fee--puts me on par (in potential guests' minds) with those lower-end hotels, and you get guests that typically stay in budget properties like that, and then those guests don't respect your property and treat it as a crashpad and assume you (like the Knights Inn or Rodeway Inn would) have full-time cleaning staff who will come behind them and clean up their messes.

So based on that experience, I don't really want the extreme-budget-seeking overnight guest (even though I fully admit that's me when I travel myself). When your guests are of a higher caliber, they tend to treat your home like their own and keep things neat and tidy and in good order. People who are either willing to pay a cleaning fee on a short stay or who book (and pay for) longer stays tend to be that, so just having the cleaning fee in place tends to screen out some of the bad clientele.

My memory is notoriously not great. I don't know the exact split, but there's always a significant female presence on the Alaska Do (and, FWIW, probably more than half of my FT friends--people I've met through the forums here--are female), so I don't think there'd be any reason to feel out of place on an Alaska Do.

ETA: looking at the last couple of dos, looks like this past summer, 4 of the 11 main participants were female (3 single and 1 was part of a married couple); in 2016, it was 3 out of 12 (all single), and in 2014, 6 out of the 20 were female (two as part of a couple and four single women). So it seems to range between 25-35% of any given Alaska Do.

cbn42

I have stayed at a few AirBnBs with cleaning fees that I'm pretty sure were not "at cost". Maybe you are charging what you actually pay, but many hosts are just charging an arbitrary amount and pocketing it, especially if they live on the premises and aren't having their house professionally cleaned after every guest. For a vacation rental in Hawaii, sure you expect a professional cleaner to come in after each booking, but when someone living downtown near the convention center is renting out their granny flat to business people who stay 1-2 nights on average, is the $40 cleaning fee really at cost?

Cleaning fees are going to be determined by what the market will bear, which may or may not have any relation to actual cost of cleaning services in that locale. If cleaning fees are expensive, at least some hosts will either do the cleaning themselves or cut corners somewhere, which will place downward pressure on the cleaning fees that other hosts can charge. It really all depends on the market.

But not everyone treats the property the same way. If everyone pays the same fee, then those who treat the place with respect are essentially subsidizing those who throw a huge party and make a big mess that takes the housekeepers hours to handle.

We're just having a discussion, which I for one have found to be quite insightful. No one is trying to make you, or anyone else, change anything.

Finkface

Jackal you are reading my mind. Again, I could not have said the above any better myself. It seems our experiences/philosophies are pretty much identical.

I can only speak for myself but I charge exactly, to the penny, what I am charged. Actually, I take it back. I pay more than I charge my guests when you factor in my ~$430 annual linen fee. If any guest were to ever question this, Imwould happily show them my invoices from my cleaning company. But they don't because my cleaning fee is equal to, or less than, every other property in my area of Hawaii.

While I am sure this is very true, no way would I ever clean my own property, even if I did live in the same city. Heck, I even get my cleaners in after I stay there myself. It ensures the same high standard of cleaning that every guest gets.

We do a deep cleaning (behind the fridge/stove, that kind of thing) a few times a year whenever we are there but otherwise I let my cleaners do the job that they do very well.

gungadin

Would love for an owner to comment on an experience I had recently, as this has not happened to me before and I have used Airbnb several times. I was booking a one night stay in a small city for an event . The listing gave one price and then , in the information, mentioned that weekends were about $75 more. I was ok with that and emailed the owner with a few questions and information about us ( all adult group no party) . When I received back the note and direct link to booking, I noticed that the price had gone up by$75 more dollars without a comment. When I inquired about this, I received a note that there was a game that day so the price was higher. Deciding that these owners had been hoping I would not notice or question the price change, I declined to book. I need to be able to trust the renters. My question is, is this a common or forgivable mistake. There was no notice in the description about higher prices during games or holidays.

travelmad478

If you search for a specific date (you don’t mention whether you did that or not) then you will get the price for that date. Hosts are able to set different prices for every day, which generally happens ahead of time, but sometimes people forget to do it until they get a booking. If they didn’t mention the higher prices for game days etc. then I would chalk it up to forgetfulness/incompetence in writing their listing description, rather than maliciousness. You’re certainly acting reasonably to decline the booking if the price went up suddenly, and to ask why, but if every hotel in town is also charging higher prices because of the high demand on a game day, then the host is also acting reasonably to raise their price for that day.

Finkface

I disagree. If the owners forgot to adjust their prices, then too bad for them and they will learn a valuable lesson to stay on top of it in the future. They should honor the quoted price. And I am speaking as an owner, here.

Had they mentioned that the price was incorrect in their original email back to you and said it was actually $75 more because it was a game day, then you have the choice to accept it or not or to negotiate. But to sneak it in after the fact, hoping you wouldn't notice or just accept it is just plain wrong, IMO.

travelmad478

I agree, but it’s not clear whether gungadin was actually requesting a specific date or just making an inquiry before making a reservation request. If it was the latter, then s/he might have been shown a different price if the host had listed a variety of prices for various dates.