Fair enough - I'd probably leave non-hotel charges out myself when doing a general analysis. That's unfair to Marriott since they don't have a good card for non-hotel spending.

I have done this analysis myself (MR vs. HH vs. SPG) for the mid-tier level in each program, and I just added the credit card earnings into the multiplier per dollar spent. In other words, my multipliers (Gold in all programs) were 15 MR, 17.5 HH, and 4 SPG.

Adding promotions/bonuses in is tricky as well because you don't REALLY know what you will get in the future. We think online booking bonuses will be around, we think HH will let us jump in on one or two Conquest-like bonuses a year, we think Hyatt will do more FFN-type promotions, we think Marriott will do those Free Weekend deals, etc. I usually factor them in when I'm doing this, but I also create a worst-case view if they don't happen or if I just can't meet the criteria of the bonuses.

I am HH Diamond, and I keep going back to them being the better value due to the air miles.

Assuming a 1000 pt booking bonus (Right now HHonors is offering a 4K for 4 stay 8K for 8 promo)

1 night stay @ $100
1000 Base points
500 Diamond bonus
500 Visa bonus (promo that happens fairly regularly with them)
300 Visa charge card bonus
1000 promo bonus at the moment (See above)
500 Airline miles

Leaving me to figure on 1 $100 stay I am yielding 3300 points or a free cat 6 award night for every 12 stays.

But, don't forget those air miles. I have been able to maximize those with a NW promo going on, and am getting 1500 miles per stay.

So, for this first 4 months of the year. I am getting a free cat 6 award night every 12 stays, and a free rt NW ticket for every 16 stays.

Sorry if this doesn't really tie in with the thread topic.. and i'd send this via email if you had email, divaof travel.. but here goes.. i post it here then:
---

Divaof travel! wow indeed you are the diva of travelling! i was just looking at your "side info" and you are Diamond in, well a lot of stuff! sounds impressive.. though i'm not sure what it all means.. i've seen silver, gold, platinum before on other profiles.. but i assume diamond means a lot more. how do you get this status? and what does it mean?

sorry for silly question. i'm quite new.. i am just curious, that's all. maybe one day i'll be diamond too?

-starry-eyed.

Hey sweetie, you look good in that elite status. Can I buy you a drink? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I've bounced around between Hilton, Hyatt and * Wood for the past few years (Top & Mid Tiers on all). This thread is quite useful in sorting out earning points & their value.

However, when it comes to redemption I have to say Starwood wins easily. Why you ask?

HH = total pain to redeem. You can't search online for availability and must call in. And you know as a FT regular, I have a myriad of questions and variables so calling is a burden for me and the HH person who gets stuck with my call. Plus I like to "see" my options. When I have to write them down from a phone call inevitably all the numbers & notes get jumbled.

Hyatt = the sticking point for me is that for a mid-week stay you have to use a minimum three nights worth of points. You can't simply have one 1-night award stay. I had a crisis last week when my AMEX got all screwed up (more fallout from it being stolen last fall) and couldn't use it in Chicago. I have all kinds of points but Hyatt wouldn't let me stay anywhere. Arrgghh!

* Wood = while earning points through stays is pokey-slow it certainly is the easiest program to redeem award nights. The online redemption is easy and fast.

This is why I'm going with *Wood for 2004 - trying the Platinum status. I'll try Hilton again when they get their act together. There really is no excuse for their antiquidated website. Hyatt will be my 2nd choice (dropped to Plat from Diamond) since I like the Park Hyatts a lot.

You're right. Nothing is better than searching for an award online.

BTW, Hilton's new beta site allows members to view and book award reservations online.

starry-eyed - There are many people on this site with more miles and points than I have. But they are older, crankier and not as attractive as I am. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I have the top status that can be earned at United and Hyatt, and have lifetime privileges in both of these programs as a result of reaching this status year after year. Other airlines have similar elite levels to United. The other hotels also have equivalent levels to Hyatt. I am not sure if the other hotels offer the lifetime perk that Hyatt does.

Most of the programs name their tier levels something different. For example Platinum at Hyatt is “mid-tier” while Platinum at Starwood is their top tier. (Maybe this is a bad example. In this comparison I think these two Platinum levels are equivalent http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif)

You can look at any of the hotel or airline websites get the basics on the different status levels, how to earn them and what they give you. Beyond this basic information, there is Flyertalk.



[This message has been edited by divaof travel (edited Mar 10, 2004).]

My fancy schmancy hotel spreadsheet
 

My answer to the "What did you do while FT was down?" question:

Other than trolling TireFlock, I updated my old hotel spreadsheet that I used long ago to help me determine which program was optimal for my stays. I made significant overhauls - my formulae calculate elite levels based on the rules of the programs (stays or nights, award stays for HH but not for others, etc.), calculate points earned based on the corresponding level, etc. So now I can enter custom user data for # nights/yr., # stays/yr., avg. cost/nt., avg. non-hotel credit card spend per month on your primary CC, # of car rentals per year, # of award stays/nights/yr., and a couple of other parameters.

Then I created four profiles for award use:
(1) The Mileage Hoarder: I take every single hotel point I get and convert it to FF miles at the most optimal rate possible within the hotel program.
(2) The Frequent Weekend Getaway: I take all of my hotel points and spend them on weekend stays. 2-night stays in Cat 2 hotels (all programs).
(3) The Major Vacation Redemptions: I take all of my hotel points and redeem them for the "best" awards in high-end properties in each program. (Cat 5 SPG, Cat 6 MR and HH). The formula assumes that you redeem the optimal award but calculates "value" per night - this puts all the programs on a level footing even through SPG, HH, and MR all put their optimal awards at different lengths (5, 6, and 7 nights respectively).
(4) A blend of 2 and 3 - which is me. :)

I assume you carry all three credit cards and you use the right one for each hotel stay. I assume you have three choices for your PRIMARY credit card for non-hotel spending:
(1) HH Amex
(2) SPG Amex
(3) An FF card

I started to run the numbers for using the MR Visa as your primary card, but there was so little value in doing that that I gave up.

I added a field where you could plug in your expected per-stay-online-booking bonus by program.

So anyway, I create all these fancy-schmancy algorithms and dump in all of my numbers, and voila! I get my results...

And boy were they anticlimactic... :eek:

Basically, the result for me was this: Make the SPG Amex my primary card, and pick any of the three programs, and my total rewards would be roughly the same, plus or minus 10%, in all three programs! SPG Amex + HH Stays was slightly better for high-end redemptions; SPG Amex + MR Stays was best for cheap weekend stays. SPG Amex + SPG Stays was, oddly, third in all cases.

So I started tinkering with the numbers. A road warrior doing 100 nights and $125/nt + $5000/month non-hotel spending starts to really see a benefit with SPG Amex + HH Stays. Somebody doing only 10 nights at $80/nt with little credit card spending earns few enough points that my "optimal big reward" formula breaks down: you can't really redeem a fourth of a Marriott 087 or an HH GLONP. The low earners still saw faster redemptions and more nights in the cheap-weekend category at MR as a Silver.

Long story short: this confirmed that I'm probably best off doing my paid stays at Marriotts. Their hotels are everywhere and, for the most part, I like them. I have maximum diversification that way: SPG points from Amex, MR points from stays, and HH points - if I need them - can be had with airline mile conversion. But...as long as you use the SPG Amex, you really can't go wrong with your preferred chain. So pick the hotels you like the best! They all roughly yield the same rewards over the course of time. Hilton's recent "devaluation" simply brought them into line with the pack - in fact, the GLONP2 is still a better value than most other rewards.

Both my wife and I are SPG Plats, spending about 25 nights a year each in SPG hotels. BUT, we have a small business that charges about 15-20K per month onto the SPG Amex card. In our case, the points accumulate almost faster than we can spend them, primarily due to the card.
This large influx of points, not to mention the promotions, "working the system", and excellent on-line availability of award stays makes SPG the best program for us. I was a Hyatt Diamond for two years and while its a nice program, there were never hotels where I needed to be in too many cases.

I gave up years ago collecting points with Starwood, Hilton and Marriott.

I just could not justify spending over $100 min. for any room at any of these hotels when my usual spend is about $42 per night including PL fees and taxes.

I have also found that when I do want a resort, I can usually get this resort on PL also saving more money and points again.

I believe the chains will have to give better rewards or reduce their prices to make it worth the while of travelers who pay for rooms out of their own pocket.

As usual the all expense business traveler is a winner. No that anything is wrong with this, it's just that your company is paying a higher fare than is necessary which in turns ups the cost of your products or services.

Regards,
Robert

Robert,

You failed to mention the one exception - Hyatt. Incidental expenses on PL stays earn Gold Passport points. And PL stays qualify as "stays" in the GP program.

Although it is hard to build up a lot of points on incidentals, the “killer award” is the ongoing Hyatt "Faster Free Nights" program. Two PL stay earns a free Hyatt night at any property worldwide, including resorts.

To top it off, Hyatt gives me all the perks on a PL stay (e.g. upgrades, welcome amenities, club access, breakfast) that I would receive on a rack rate stay. (Starwood certainly doesn't do this.)

I spent 10 nights in a suite at Hyatt Maui in December on faster free nights. The revenue I spent to get these free nights was probably around $600. I had to make these hotel stays anyway, so in my opinion I truly received free accommodations worth at least $5,000 from Hyatt in this case.

Satori, your analysis is not entirely objective.
 

I have just scrolled thourgh this entire thread and have found it very informative.

However, some of the assumptions concerning the analyses that were advanced were either too optimistic or flawed.

Satori's analysis of earning free nights is quite useful in showing how an SPG Platinummember could earn points so that he/she could redeem those points for a free night in a short amount of time. His emphasis was on the online booking bonuses and decision to forego the Platinum amenity in lieu of SPG points, as each would earn 500 points, garnering 1,000 points together.

First, although the above may be true for SPG Platinums, and I am not familiar enough to know whether SPG has continued giving online booking bonuses, his analysis also yields the overall flaw with respect to his assumptions, as it clearly shows that one earns 10 times as many SPG points on a simple $100 stay than one would earn from the hotel stay, itself! Moreover, this is further reduced if you are not an SPG Platinum, as you will not be provided with the opportunity to choose the SPG points in lieu of the amenity.

Second, I beleive his reliance on the former bonuses blinded him into thinking that all the other chains regularly give these bonuses, as well, and his decision to consider that one would earn, on average, 1,000 MR points for online booking of hotel space is way off base, IMHO. It is my belief that all the other chains regularly do not provide these booking bonuses, although each, has on occasion, done so. I would think that these should be left out of the equation, except for SPG, and as noted above, his analysis also included an additinal 500 points as an SPG Platinum.

Third, as noted above from others, and most recently by Vulcan, who also happens to be an SPG member, use of an affinity card, can greatly influence one's point earning capabilities. Although one can indeed rack up a great many points using the Hilton cards on and off the hotel's premises, one is really not able to fully utilize them unless they are a Diamond. Marriott's Visa might not be that great off-site but if you stay a great deal at their hotels, a 3x multiplier is quite useful. Vulcan pointed out correctly, that unlike HHonors and their affinity cards, if you are not a top tier in a hotel program == not that much of a road warrior or frequent traveler, SPG can still be quite valuable to you if you charge a fair amount on the SPG AMEX because even though it may only earn you one point/$, and the SPG awards are "quite expensive" when it comes to redemption points vis a vis the other programs, you can still make out very well with SPG because you can rack up a fair number of SPG points over the year, and unlike HHonors where you can triple that number quite easily, your abililty to redeem those points is hindered by your not attaining top tier in that program. However, that is not a concern for SPG properties as their are no capacity controls or blackouts, period.

Therefore, as a not so frequent traveler, who would you rather be:

1). A HHonors Gold who has enough points and then some for a free 5 consecutive night stay at a nice hotel but you are unable to redeem same because there is no availabilty;

or

2). An SPG Gold or no status, who barely scraped out enough points for a 5 night stay, but can book it, because there are no controls on the reward?

I will also point out some further thinking into this.

It may be true that HHonors has devalued its GLON and ALON awards in that it now costs more points to redeem. But it is far worse than that. If you are not a Diamond, who essentially has no reward restrictions, not only has HHonors upped the aforementioned awards, but it also has hiked the per night points that those awards will cost. This means that as a non-Diamond member, you could pay as much as 240,000 HHonors points for the non-consecutive 6 night stay that a Diamond will only pay 175,000 points for. Therefore, under HHonors, unless you are Diamond, you are shafted twice, by their devaluation. Moreover, it bears repeating that if you were to go to Biddingfortravel.com, you would see that a large number of Hilton family properties are represented on that board, and that the rates for the rooms are a fraction of what they would cost to redeem those rooms. For example, I am planning a trip to Nappa/Sonoma this summer and the E/S Napa is the top tier in the Hilton program and would cost me a per night redemptionn of 40,000 HHonors points a nice tidy sum. However, BFT recently disclosed that someone was able to bid a 2 night weekend in August (Weekend and Summer are very high season there) for the cost of $120.00!! That calculates out to 1 HHonor point = $00.0015!!! Not a very good return on your points if you ask me.

Nevertheless, has it has been noted above, if you are a HHonors Diamomd member, the program probably is worthwhile given your travel and spend patterns.

I am unfamiliar with Priority Club as I deem, rightly or wrongly, that most of its non IC properties leave alot to be desired, but I can discuss Hyatt in some detail as that is the program that I have fastened onto as the best for my travel needs.

I am a Diamond in that program, and with a little more effort, I could equally attain Diamond in Hilton because the 25 vs 28 stays is not that different from one another, and nor for that matter from SPG.

However, as I am more of a leisure traveler, and I more often than not spend my own dime, I have to decide which of the various programs to center my efforts on, because to split my stays would yied little effective status in any of the programs.

Although, some lament that Hyatt is not everywhere for their business needs, that is no shortcoming to me, as I do not travel much, and therefore, I focus on areas that I want to go and which likely will have some Hyatt representation. This may not be helpful for your business needs, but again, for a leisure traveler, Hyatt is in enougt markets where this is not a problem when researching that kind of excursion.

Second, it has been noted that Hilton will allow you to earn status on award stays. What has not been noted, is that Hyatt allows this as well, so long as you make at least a $1 charge to your room while on the award stay.

Third, although Diva has noted that unlike all the rest of the chains, Hyatt still honors all its top level perks for its Diamond customers for its PLN stays. However, anecdotal evidence from the PLN board also discloses that with a few property exceptions (Monterrey Hyatt) the rooms given to non-Diamond guests on a PLN rate are not shabby, to say the leasat.

Fourth, Diva has also noted that she and I receive all the perks coicncident with our Status in Gold Passport, and that the stays do count to your status in the Gold Passport program so long as you make at least a $1 charge to the room.

So far as I am aware, none of the other hotel chains will permit a PLN stay to count towards attaining one' status. Although Hyatt does not explicitly state this, the practice of all who have reported on this, regardless of their status in the GP program, is that if you were to have at least that single $1 charge, the stay will be credited as counting towards your status requirments for attaining elite status for next year. This, too, is then another benefit that none of the other programs share.

Fifth, Satori, with his emphasis on booking bonuses and amenties refused has neglected to highlight another very lucrative aspect of the Hyatt GP program.
Although Hyatt may not have these ways to earn points, more often than any of the other chains, does it have various property bonuses whereby you can earn upwards of 2,000 bonus GP bonus points for a stay at a property running such bonuses. These bonuses can be in the form of bonus GP hotel points or FF miles, and sometimes certain hotels run both bonuses concurrently, but you can choose only one or another.

As I am of the mind that one "Render[s] unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's," I only choose the hotel points to earn, as they are far more lucrative in that scheme of things. In any event, Satori indicated that putting aside the FFN promotion that are run twice yearly, for approximately at the very least 6 months combined duration, it would take a considerable amount of time for one to earn a free night at Hyatt. Not so. Hyatt's awards are spaced into 4 categories ranging in point cost from 5,000; 8,000; 12;000 and 15;000 points per night. Three separate stays at hotels with either a 1,500 or 2,000 point GP bonus (and this is not uncommon) and only 1 night at each property with a rate of $100 will net you at a minimum 5,500 points and enough for you to stay for free at a Category 1 hotel.

What really brings home the point, however, is that the above does NOT factor in status of any kind to the above equation (if your are elite you also get a point/spend multiplier based on that status) and it limits one's stays to only 1 night. Obviously, the point earning capacity increases markedly the more night you place onto each stay.

Finally, although Hyatt does not have an explicit affinity card per se, it does allow you to transfer points into the program from either AMEX or Diners Club. Moreover, like all the hotel programs, these transfers are not taxed like the airline FF mile transfers/earnings. I am not sure what the calculation ratio is for am AMEX point vis a vis a Hyatt points, but I do believe it is not as good as the DC transfer of about 2 DC points (corresponds to a $1 spend) into .6 Hyatt points. Inasmuch as Hyatt only provides you with 5 points per $1 spend at its hotels, while Marriott and Hilton are twice that, the .6 rate is not all that bad.

.

Satori, continued....
 

My take is that if you have attained top tier in any program, take your pick, because you will be treated well. I must say, however, that it is my belief that Hyatt's US resorts are quite a bit more posh than either Hilton's or Marriotts. And, since I am not a golfer, the latter two hotel chains' offerings diminish further with respect to yours truly.

If you are not a frequent traveler in that you make status, as I do, by purposefully hopping around to maximize my stays in a year, but wisht o be treated royally while at any property then Hyatt may be for you. However, if you cannot do this, but you are a heavy credit card user in your daily activities, then as Vulcan has pointed out, SPG may very well be to your liking, because the hard earned points that you have earned during the year will likely be able to be redeemed when and where you wish to vacation -- this is no small thing, as many HHonors people know, or will unfortunately learn when they try to redeem their points.

I view Marriotts program as a little better than Hilton's because for one, you do get a point redemption discount on multi-night stays, which Hilton does not provide. Moreover, unlike Hilton, Marriott will let you insert a non reward day into your string of reward days so as to maximize the number of reward days that would qualify for the multi-night discount, consecutive, or not. This more than makes up for Marriott's less than spectacular credit card earnings away from their hotels as compared to Hilton's. But, as noted above, although points earning is easy at Hilton, point redemption is not -- unless you are a Diamond member.

Finally, I place Marriott just where many place its hotels, middle of the road in the sense of you know what you are getting, but not spectacular, either for point earning/redemption purposes, nor for that matter, the hotel properties themselves, outside of certain golf resorts, Marriott does not have any truly 5 US star properties like SPG or Hyatt does. For that matter, I do not think that Hilton does either, but at least it has some standout properties in Europe, whereas Marriott mostly has business oriented hotels

NJUPINTHEAIR - You reinforce some of the reasons I give most of my business to Hyatt.

The value of the affinity card is overblown in this thread, and in my opinion, it is irrelevant when comparing hotel programs. You either have an affinity card or you don't. Everybody who cares enough to read Flyertalk should have one. Almost everything I charge gets me United miles. But unless I want to pay for my airfare, hotel room, or rental car twice, a Hyatt affinity card would not do me any good.

I think it is interesting to note that among the airline programs, there is very little difference in the award structure between the major carriers. But the hotel programs are all over the place.

The most likely chain to get my business besides Hyatt is Starwood (I am elite in both.) But if I have a choice, I will always go with Hyatt. To go with Starwood would be equvalent to frequently using an airline which charges 35,000 miles for a standard domestic award as compared to 25,000 most airlines require. (And this comparison ignores the "killer award" of Faster Free Nights.)

PS – NJUPINTHEAIR , I have moved to NJ.

"as Vulcan has pointed out, SPG may very well be to your liking, because the hard earned points that you have earned during the year will likely be able to be redeemed when and where you wish to vacation "

Case in point. I recently redeemed points for 3 rooms at the Westin Puerto Vallarta 12/27/04-1/1/05, very high season, indeed. Rooms were readily available to book with no hassle. Also, remember with SPG, if you book 4 reward nites, the 5th is free, further reducing the cost in *points.