Just when I thought I had learned it all
How do you get Silver thru 2005?

My 2 cents - if it wasn't for the FF miles I wouldn't travel on NW all the time - they have an old fleet


[This message has been edited by jimc_usa (edited 07-02-2003).]

Now that Continental Airlines has decided to match Delta Air Lines in terms of future elite qualification, are there any new thoughts pertaining to this topic?

High Speed Rail

That's one of the more bizarre things I've read on FlyerTalk lately. Did Rip Van Winkle just wake up from a long nap?

From the DOT a week ago:
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/bts1703.htm

I agree. So, next trip that we book should be on a discounter. And the one after that and so on and so on...

Decent ff and elite programs are what give network carriers appeal over LCC's. eliminating them is like a death wish for the network carriers.

One positive thing we should all be doing is registering complaints with the DOJ over CO's obvious collusion with DL on their ff programs, and asking them to keep a close eye on NW following suit.

AF has a decent elite program, and they have been a lot more profitable in the last few years than the US carriers! Maybe one answer is to join the ff programs of some of the European carriers.

And WN (Southwest Airlines) has smiling customers. And hey, they can't take away upgrades because there aren't any in the first place. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Seriously, Southwest is run by people who are permitted to use their brains and do so regularly. The only thing that doesn't make sense is the amazing generosity of their FF program: I can spend $290 total on 4 round trips and earn an unrestricted free trip worth $300 (or even more if I have an optimal use for it).

Try Southwest. Adjust your expectations of the flight experience itself downward (but not as much as you'd think). It's a bus, but it's a really pleasant one. Kiosks have eliminated most of the queuing.

After you fly them for a while, you will find yourself adjusting your expectations of a FF program and treatment by the staff substantially upward.

I can spend $1200 on United and redeem the miles for a First Class bed seat on a 12 hour international flight in a bed-seat. That is what I call a very generous frequent flyer program and a wonderful benefit of upgrades. I'm not knocking Southwest - I've never flown them.

It has been greater than 9 months since this thread was launched.

Has the landscape of the frequent flyer programs changed since the recent official announcement of changes to the Delta Air Lines SkyMiles program?

Was www.saveskymiles.com instrumental in the decision of Delta Air Lines to make these changes?

The recent developments are positive for people like us. With Northwest refusing to join the race to the bottom in FF program benefits, Delta has been forced to relent and customer backlash has to be the reason. After delaying implementation of some negative changes to their program, will Continental finally get the picture? Stay tuned.

Well, here we are, greater than two years later.

As a result of this milepost, I thought it would be a good idea to re-visit this thread.

The Delta Air Lines SkyMiles frequent flier program, in many respects, has deteriorated overall in the last two years, although there have been some positive developments in the program. However, when combined with the de-valuation of SkyMiles and the downgrading of the product offered by Delta Air Lines overall, I began to quietly question to myself as to whether or not it is still worth being a frequent flier.

Don’t get me wrong — I still enjoy it, although the entire travel landscape has been more difficult overall to enjoy. However, upon an initial investigation, it seems that other frequent flier programs are not much better than the Delta Air Lines SkyMiles frequent flier program.

What do you think is the future of frequent flier programs and of the travel business as a whole at this point in time?

Buy stock in high speed long distance rail!

Canarsie, some brief thoughts:

1. Miles are still a valuable proposition. They just aren't for retirement. Earn and then burn, that way the two are aligned and there isn't a devaluation of miles earned in one period when you attempt to redeem under a new award chart with higher prices.

2. In some ways, they're getting more valuable than ever. Alliances mean greater redemption opportunities. I remember even at the beginning of alliances if I wanted to fly Air New Zealand on a transpac in F United would only fly me in coach to NZ's gateway. I love redeeming AA miles for an award on both TN and QF, and redeeming US miles for an award on both NH and TG (both of which I've done recently).

3. But of course there are challenges. There rae no guarantees with frequent flyer programs. Benefits can and will change at will. The prices of awards will go up. These are very real currencies, but with no independent central bank to keep inflation in check. Hence #1 above, earn and burn in the same period.

4. Not all programs are created equal. Delta is legions behind both AA and UA in my opinion, at least as a general proposition. Now, if you need to spend most of your time on DL metal (in 2-class equipment, anyway) then it makes sense to be with Delta. But their international upgrade policies and sky-high award chart make them generally unattractive, at least to me. Then there are pretty good regional programs like AS... and if all you care about is domestic upgrades, by all means check out NW (or AA if you can become an EXP).

5. Diversification is key. Redeeming on a single carrier or from a single program can be difficult, especially with very full planes. It makes sense to rack up miles in a single program until you have enough to make them useful, but then it pays to diversity. It's wonderful to look for an award and be able to choose to use miles with UA, DL, AA, etc. Building up miles in an account with each alliance can be very helpful.

6. Don't forget hotel programs. Love Starwood's redemption properties, even if I don't like how expensive some of the best properties have become. The Starwood Amex is my choice for credit card accrual. Plus the flexibility to transfer points to so many programs is great -- optionality is key.

I was thinking of starting a thread titled, "What's life like after elite status is no more?" Subtitled, "I chucked the whole FF thing and lived to tell about it."

Frankly, for a price concious traveller, programs that have only one domestic airline can be very difficult to stick to. I absolutely *love* SkyTeam, because I have FOUR domestic airlines from which I can earn EQM's on. Someday, I think there will be a shakeout and some airlines will merge. After all, if there becomes transparent benefits among DL/NW/CO such as receprical club agreements and reciprical upgrade agreements (we're partially there on both counts), at what point does the color of the airplane's paint matter?

I think FF programs are here to stay, however. There's $$$ to be made in non-airline partner miles, and status *does* keep people within a couple of different airlines -- it does for me, for without it, I would actually fly the carrier with the best fare and schedule to fit my needs, instead of paying a little extra to NW for the upgrade, or spending extra time on airplanes to accrue miles.

The legacy airlines are trying to reconcile four things simultaneously:

1. Using technology to redefine "loyalty" as incremental revenue over the basement fare - United is leading in this area with UGS, $299 annual access to E+, Mr. Chicken offers to upgrade at check-in, etc.
2. Rationalizing fare structures - America West and AirTran are dragging the majors kicking and screaming in this direction, look at the percentage of paid Z fares on routes such as JFK-LAX
3. Tailoring their market to their predominant customer bases even if it annoys some of their higher volume customers in the short run (United is the leader here, with ps/Ted/explus); and
4. Staying afloat.

I agree with DHAST that the FF programs are here to stay. The elite programs, however, are up for serious scrutiny. Delta and US have botched this in past years. United seems to have learned from their lessons and is taking a more incremental and less confrontational approach.

But if the market shakes itself out to the point where I can routinely pick up an $1800 transatlantic ticket in a class that looks like your typical 757 domestic F service with a 50 day advance purchase and capacity controls, then the days of earning elite status for a $299 ticket in row 68 are going to be gone. You'll still get some miles, but that'll be it.

I've long thought that the key to financial survival is pricing a premium product at a price that people are willing to pay $$$. That would piss off most members of an elite program, but it's the only way to marginalize the bargain basement coach fares. However the elite telephone numbers and checkin lines are of some benefit to the road warrior. I truly believe that a premium product can be priced such that Average Joe can afford it and the airline can actually make money on it. It doesn't have to be much -- a 757 Domestic F seat would be fine for me.

With the advent of fuel surcharges, increased taxes, the reduction of services and the elimination of benefits......do you believe that this is true?......and do you believe that this is true as well?

What do you BELIEVE???

Nice bump ... found this quote from 2003 quite nice!

You didn't even mention the farce that is brought to you by the letters "T", "S" and "A"!

It seems as though to many FlyerTalk members, the current state of frequent flier programs is worse than ever, as illustrated by one of many quotes posted recently in airline forums around FlyerTalk:It may be a good time to revive this thread and ask again regarding the future of frequent flier programs: what should we do?

Travel is likely higher for me this year. I have a legitimate shot for at least mid-tier elite, if not higher. And I'm finding, the more I look at the options, the less it matters to me.

My priorities are IFE, domestic upgrades, domestic award redemption, and international award redemption, in that order.

For the places I fly (mostly small cities in the Northeast, sometimes Southeast/Midwest) my options are usually US, UA, and DL/NW.

If I take US, there's no IFE, the "upgrade" is fairly worthless, and I have high domestic award fees.

With UA, I get Channel 9 but I'm almost always going to be sitting in the back. And the fees, while lower, are still annoying.

Then there's DL... Maybe half the time I'll have IFE. I've got a good shot at sitting up front. But all the devaluation and benefit cutting leave me nervous of how next year's program will look. Finding it hard to trust DL management.

Gradually, I've begun to care less and less about the legacy frequent flyer programs. For transcons, I'm quickly approaching the point of resigning myself to a coach seat and picking whichever is cheaper, as long as there is an IFE system.

For shorter hops, I'm all VX and WN, whenever possible. Love the VX experience. WN awards are very useful for my travel patterns and the lack of change fees is great.

If DL really had taken the "best" of both airlines in the merger, they would have had a lock on my business. Now they are competing with UA and price will be a major determinant.

So, to your point, if one of the legacies tried to be significantly different from the others, rather than tacitly cooperating to lower the overall level of benefit, my loyalty is still available. WN gets a lot of my business already and they offer neither of my top two priorities, simply because it's so much easier to work with them.

Being based in Europe, I deal with airlines farther along the curve in devaluing programs than those in the US. My response has been to fly price on intra-Europe travel, which often means LCC's. I still participate in ff programs for TATL and US domestic travel when I am in the states, and have never flown an LCC except on intra-Europe routes. Most of my intra-Europe travel is on LCC's. If the US-based legacies want to destroy their ff programs, then I'll do the same with my TATL and US domestic travel, and do my best to avoid the legacies.

The formation of a large membeship base in an associatioin of frequent flyers that influence people to move business might get some airlines attention, but I don't know that it would be worth the trouble to put together.

As to those airlines that want to shortchange on miles on cheaper tickets, I am a mixed fare flyer and always have been. Right now, business travel outweighs personal travel, and my business travel is out of higher priced buckets, while I try to get the best price I can on personal travel. But an airline that screws me on miles on my personal travel is going to lose my business travel, too.

I suspect as many airlines keep turning the screws, one will figure out that being a little more generous will way off big time in driving more business. I would suspect that airlines is most likely to be AA or CO, and least likely to be US or DL.

Delta Skymiles is by far the WORST. Customer service is AWEFUL, website award search is full of glitches that have been there for YEARS. Overall a waste of time, money and any other effort. AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE!

For award on Delta's partner airlines, Delta really sucks.....

why
 

Why did you revive a 8 year old thread that hasnt been posted to in 18 months to complain about delta?.....old threads like this should be left to rot, not dug up after they're burried. They should close and archive any thread over 2 years old without a topic that is continually relevant. This is one of my major peeves with FT all the outdated useless info still popping up on front pages.

It's a relevant topic. 8 years later, Delta still sucks! :D

I love DELTA!!! Really I do!!!

hahahahahah. In all seriousness, I haven't had problems redeeming for international J tickets. However, I am flexible with taking an open jaw flight 1.5 months apart.

here, I'll quote your quote and keep it alive!! :p

Actually, this topic is probably more relevant than ever. Here are three examples..

• Delta Air Lines SkyMiles: Updated: Award Redeposit and Reissue Rule Change
• American Airlines AAdvantage: Public evidence of possible changes to Million Miler Program?
• United Airlines Mileage Plus: Blog speculation on UA/CO new Mileage Plus scheme

There seems to be a lot of fear and anger lately regarding frequent flier loyalty programs in the United States.

If so, is it justified?

What is the future of frequent flier loyalty programs, and what should we do?

Given the recent DL and UA devaluations I think it's time to work together!