Please Help - Ticket Confiscated
 

Hello All:
I sold miles for the first time through a brokerage service called Travel Masters and a gentleman by the name of Scott called to notify me that the ticket had been confiscated. He wants me to give him back the money he paid for the ticket as well as take a loss on the miles confiscated (150,000). What do you suggest I do?

Also, the airline has currently shut-down my account and is requesting that I call them. If I call, what do I say?

Thanks in advance for your help!

traveler101, although we appreciate the urgency of your concerns, we try to keep our forums related to their purposes so as to get the best response from our very large community. Your post is best for our MilesBuzz forum and I am moving it there for continued discussion. Ocn Vw 1K, Moderator.

Note: In the middle of typing the following post in the FlyerTalk Community forum, Ocn Vw 1K had moved the thread to MilesBuzz!, so here is what I was going to post before the thread was locked and moved: Here is what I wrote in your thread in the TravelBuzz! forum: I added my original post in TravelBuzz! to this post, which is why

[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited Nov 21, 2003).]

What's your agreement with them? Did you agree to give them back the ticket and pay them if it didn't go through and you were caught?

It's not your problem. Tell them to pound sand.

It is not your fault the ticket was confiscated, so I would not give the broker back his money. The miles you sold him are gone, as well as some "penalty" miles the airline will probably will assess you over and above the miles you sold.

Its against most airlines T&C to sell miles, so it is within their rights to suspend or close your account.

I'd suggest contact them as requested and explaining what happened and requested your account be re-opened.

Its safe to say the miles you sold are gone for good.

Take the cash and go on a nice long vacation (on another airline). It's yours.

The ticket broker assumed the risk of the transaction - that's why he gets that big fat spread between buyer and seller.

What a bummer. Is the broker/passenger going to make it up to you for the miles as they obviously tripped up somewhere. You know, bragging to the Res Agent/Gate Agent, someone at the airline what a great deal they got/ not knowing the "story" about the award etc.

Almost forgot, call the airline right away and come clean and hope for mercy. They caught you and it doesn't get any better with time/lying/denying.

[This message has been edited by rbAA (edited Nov 21, 2003).]

Yea, screw the broker. He had to know that what he was doing violated all airline ff rules. To now want to push all the risk back to you is ridiculous.

He chose broker illegal ff miles, he should have the grapes to deal with the consequences.

It's not clear from the above if "Scott" is the passenger that bought the ticket, or works for the broker.

Traveler101

Welcome to FT.

When you mess with the devil be prepared to be burned.

You took a chance, as did others, and now your will pay part of the penalty. As for the others, the story is the same....unless some paperwork exists that says otherwise.

Next time maybe you will be Traveler 201 and know better.

If Scott is the passenger, tell him to contact the broker, and make no more statements to him. You've already been punished enough (or are about to), through the impending action by the airline for your violation of the Terms and Conditions.

If Scott is employed by the broker, an agent of the broker, or is the broker, don't let yourself get victimized twice!

Don't be surprised to hear threats of lawsuits -- who knows maybe an actual one -- and keep in mind that anything you say may be deemed an "admission" and used against you.

However, with the airline that's probably a moot point, and your best bet is to be suitably supine, keeping records for future use of every contact you have with them -- or anyone else -- about this incident.

By the way, you may not want to say too much on FlyerTalk either. IP addresses can be subpoenaed.

Don't worry about lawsuits from the broker/its client. It is against public policy for a court to enforce illegal agreements so they don't. The contract between you and the broker was illegal according to your agreement with the airline and the broker knew it. The broker has no legal remedy.

As to the airline I don't know how to respond. How many miles did you have left in your account?

Just because the T&C's say it is not permitted, does not make it illegal. Unless a state of federal LAW forbids sale or barter, it is merely a breach of the contract with the airline.

Therefore, check your agreement with the broker carefully and don't ignore the problem. It just can get worse through neglect.

Your best bet is to talk to a contract attorney. If your sole responsibility was to give up the miles then you are not contractually obligated to do anything else. If you agreed to seel miles (stupidly) with a clause that makes you liable for how the airline takes it then you're probably screwed.

But if the broker does sue you, you could probably get the airline to file a counter-claim against the broker without too much difficulty. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Also, if you are "judgment-proof" (have few or no assets), there may be less need to consult with counsel.

I don't recommend ignoring any subpoenas, however.

Pray for the best, be open and honest with the carrier, and be very circumspect in your dealings with the broker, perhaps insisting that because of these unforeseen (to you, not likely to the broker http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif ) circumstances any future communications with you must be in writing.

If you have a lot of assets, you may want to find an attorney now (perhaps depending on what your contract with the broker says).

I have never sold miles (or even considered selling miles), but, were it not for my participation in FlyerTalk, I would never have thought that there was any reason why I should not do so. I earned the miles and, if I were ignorant of the info I have gleaned on FT, I would have just assumed that they were mine to do with as I wished. I do not ever recall having had this fact clearly pointed out to me by any of my airline programs.

Sounds to me, traveler101, that you (with 2 posts) might be such an innocent who was seduced by a mileage broker. Perhaps your open, honest, innocent admission and subsequent interaction with your airline will save your remaining miles.

Could this message be bogus? It's been the better part of the day and the original poster seems invisible for such an urgent problem.

Call the airline and tell them you are ignorant of the rules against selling your miles. Maybe your account gets re-opened. Maybe not. You've rolled the dice with the airline and you'll now have to deal with them. Eat crow and hope for the best.

If this Scott person is from Travel Masters, tell him you held up your end of the bargain and to take a hike. What happened with the miles after you "sold them" is their problem.

If this Scott person is the passenger who bought the ticket from Travel Masters, tell him you never had any deal with him and to go away and complain to Travel Masters.

All this junk about hiring contract lawyers etc. is a bunch of baloney. This issue would never see the inside of a courtroom so feel 100% free to sleep well at night.

My thought exactly. We've had these threads before on FT - threads that, in retrospect, were probably a long discussion about a fabricated event.

I'm not sure who would do the suing here. It'd be like if I bought a bag of pot and then had it get confiscated by the cops. Am I going to sue the drug dealer? Am I going to get the dealer to sue his supplier? Probably wouldn't get too far...

Chalk it up as a lesson learned in the dirty back alley of the frequent-flyer world.

Last week I was reading USA Today and in the classifieds there were about five ads for buying/selling miles with toll free numbers. I was curious about such blatant advertising and decided to call one to see how they would even go about it.

A woman answered and mentioned some travel agency, which I didn't understand the name because I was struggling with her accent. I asked her how they go about buying miles. She asked how many I had. I made up some numbers like, 180,000 United, and 130,000 American.

She says I'll give you $3,000 for your United miles.

I asked how do I transfer the United miles to you when they are in my account and I can't sell them?

She said, I need two business class tickets to Asia which will be 180,000 miles. You get the tickets in my clients' names and I will pay you for the tickets.

I made my excuses and hung up.

1. I don't have the miles in my account and I was never interested in really selling them. I was interested in how they would go about setting up a transaction and processing miles from a seller to a buyer.

2. The buying rate was essentially 1.6 cents/mile which I was surprised to discover - seems lucrative for the seller. I have to wonder about the price they sell a business class ticket to Asia. Anyone interested in researching that side http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif?

3. This was an ad in USA Today. How can the airlines not be busting these people? It took me less than five minutes to discover the process. Couldn't the airline contact them, set up phony deals, and bust them? There were at least five companies advertising in USA Today with toll-free numbers.

4. It makes me think from the original poster that Scott might be the passenger, since the agency I contacted said the process would be for me to get tickets for the passenger. Wouldn't the passenger have access to the name of the ticket buyer who paid the taxes for the award?

It is quite a racket. I love my airline programs too much to fool around with them. And like Punki, this is not the first story I've read on Flyertalk about the danger of playing with mileage brokers.

As with the Warning/Confession: I was caught selling miles! thread, the thread was started by a first-time poster.

There are too many similarities between both threads.

Perhaps a moderator should close this thread and refer future posts to the Warning/Confession: I was caught selling miles! thread.

"bust them"? For what?

Unless you're in an area where such "scalping" is illegal, there doesn't seem to be any violation of the law on the part of the travel agency (broker).

There may be a contractual violation of the T&C of the Frequent Flyer program by the person selling the miles, and the airline could certainly try to take action against that person if they track him down (which they might be able to do by buying a ticket from the broker, but that's just catching one individual, not "busting" the broker), and they may be able to refuse to honor the ticket tendered by a buyer if they can establish it was obtained in violation of the terms of carriage, but I'm not sure what they could do against the broker. Doesn't seem to be any privity of contract with him, either as Frequent Flyer account holder, or person who is tendering a ticket in exchange for transportation.

That's not to say I suggest anyone do it, I just can't figure what the airline could do legally to the broker if they catch him/her.

Just a couple of thoughts.

First, the fact that the poster starting this thread is making his/her first post may not mean anything. As my first thought was that someone started a new flyertalk handle just to start this thread. As they didn't want any of their real information known.

I don't think anyone has "a leg to stand on" when it comes to asking for money back. Unless it's the passenger, and then only if the broker didn't tell the passenger what they were buying. If the broker gave all of the information to the passenger, then everyone just needs to move on.

What I think happens quite often though is that someone other than the passenger contacts the broker. But then fails to inform the passenger of all the risks. (ie. a travel agent may contact a broker, buy a ticket hoping to make a larger commission, and then only inform the passenger that she/he obtained a "bulk ticket"). And if that's the case it's the travel agents fault. But if everyone knew the risks, then everyone needs to move on. Including the passenger, the broker & the frequent flyer. They all took a risk, and they got caught.

As for the frequent flyer, depending upon his or her status, and how many miles might be lost, it might be best to just start a new account at a new address and start over.
As the airlines are going to enforce their penalty no matter how badly he/she pleads their case.

As for the airlines going after the broker. It's the frequent flyer that broke the rules. And the broker didn't force him/her to do so. And my guess is that it was the frequent flyer that contacted the broker and asked how much will you pay me for my miles, not the other way around. As the broker doesn't have a name to contact, until after the frequet flyer makes the initial contact. And that doesn't mean the brokers without blame, nor the passenger. But it's the frequent flyer that starts the process.

And last of all it would be my opinion that contacting a lawyer would just be throwing away good money after bad. The only one that's going to come out ahead is the lawyer.

What's all this talk about lawyers, courts???

If there is any legal action, it would end up in small claims court anyway. No lawyers needed for that. BUT, again, I would not loose any sleep over that, because quite simply - it ain't happening

If the 150K was just about all the miles you had in the account, then I would go with the earlier suggestion. Start a new account. Add/subtract the initial to your name and that should about do it.
If you still have a nice chunk in the account, and if this was your first time, call the airline. At best they may let you go with warning, maybe a little punishment(subtract few more miles), or maybe they will close it and tell you to take a hike, but what do you have to loose at this point?

Yes, the poster could be covering his IP tracks. Then again, this may indeed be a bogus scare tactic foisted by one of the airlines.

As for contacting a lawyer, you may be right. But I don't think any lawyer who posts on this board would say that -- not out of greed or trying to drum up business for the profession -- but for fear of getting sued if he gives online "legal advice" to forget about it, and then the roof falls in. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

"Oh, I relied upon . . . "

not to hijack this thread, but IF one were to perform a transaction like this

Would the selling of Paper Certs (VIPOWs SWUS, Travel vouchers, etc) be less of a risk?

chichow,

In my opinion - no! And here's why. If I sell you a Business Class ticket to London on United Airlines all you really need to do is check-in, and get your boarding passes.

If I sell you a coach ticket and some VIP upgrades on American you need to go to the ticket counter and check-in, and have the ticket reissued. And this allows for some interaction between the ticketing agent and the passenger. And how many times do you think and agent has said "If sure was nice of John Doe to give you these upgrades". And how many times do you think the passenger has said "What do you mean "give them to me", "I paid $xxx.xx for them".

So again, in my opinion selling a "paper" certificate is no safer than selling an award ticket. Each has it's own risks.

A paper certificate does not put at risk the revenue ticket. The passenger is still going to get to their destination even though it will be in the back of the aircraft. I find it ironic that as airlines move to electronic upgrades, it will be more easy to "sell" them since the upgrade will be in the system and not paper that you have to turn in.

And a couple keystrokes, and they can probably see the history, who they went to, etc. Follow the "threads" easily! It might be easier to sell, but IMO it would be easier to get caught if you did. If they had any inclination they were sold (and they are pretty smart) they'd be asking the passenger 20 questions of which he/she probably didn't know most of the answers. I wouldn't be selling mine.

This is obviously a troll post folks...likely intended to distract all the lawyers posting on USAir firing a customer.

If all upgrades are in C or Z class, why would an agent care how the passenger got the upgrade as long as it is all in order?

So what's the difference between electonic or paper?

Because the passenger may be of the sort that will only travel in a premium cabin, and would have otherwise bought a full-fare ticket had an upgrade not been available through a broker.

Well I'll start off page 2 by saying I am astounded no-one has asked WHICH airline is involved.

I think traveler101 is a fool and anyone who sells miles to brokers advertising in newspapers deserves all the grief they get IMO and will teach them an expensive lesson.

All the same WHICH airline is involved is of general interest. Some (AA/QF/DL) seem far more aggressive than others.

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~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from UA 747-400 exit row 15A near you SOON!

Good points. I would think that it would be difficult to rack up that many miles and not run across the rules about things like this at some point along the way...

I don't think it would be difficult at all. I can count over 10 of my friends who have in excess of 150,000 miles that have no idea that there is a black market for selling miles and wouldn't know if it was right or wrong to do it.

Some other poster mentioned the same thing, they earned the miles so as far as they are concerned they can do what they want with them.

If you apply a common sense approach to it, which most people that don't know about sellings miles would, the above statement would probably be taken by most.

Ignorance of the law (fine print) is no excuse.

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"It's as easy as 1, 2, C" -- Kelly, Married With Children

Wise words!