FRAC

Thanks for the informative post. I finally understand open jaw travel.

At least until another FTer posts a different explanation http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Many, if not most, passengers probably don't know these rules, and instead can only depend on an airline or travel agent (the majority of whom I actually do consider to be dependable). What's sad is that these passengers don't put any effort into preparing a little themselves. So it's no surprise that there are times when one will run into a situation where the customer's ignorance ends up being taken advantage of (purposely or inadvertently) by the representative/agent/clerk. Knowing what your dealing with, as FTers usually do, puts one in a better and more knowledgeable position when it comes to putting travel plans together. This is also true in other common situations.

A case in point: I helped my mother to buy a car this summer. She wanted just a "normal" car with none of the frills, but all three cars the dealer had on his lot of the make and model my mother wanted had a sunroof. When I asked the dealer about ordering one without a sunroof, he replied that this make and model only came with a sunroof. I knew this to be untrue as I had previously done my homework. (Got the car later on without a sunroof from a different dealer). I don't mean to put down car salespeople here, or to point fingers in any of the situations brought out on this thread, but just to point out the sad necessity nowadays of having to often depend on yourself rather than what the "expert" says.

Whether it is the car salesman of the reservation agent the person will do engage in the behavior that is most beneficial to them personally or to the company they work for.

Res agents are IMO poorly trained so that most people will not know the rules, including that agents. It preserves profits. they recieve bonuses based on number of completed, calls not number of satisified customers.

I get it. I could be dangerous now. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif

I don't recall doing an open jaw from the departure city. I leave home and I come back home. But up until now I'd be one of those dummies when I was told I couldn't do it, I'd have said OK.

Thanks FRAC.....

My thoughts about this experience is that they do not soley apply to airline telephone representatives, I believe the lack of manners in the USA applies each day to many, if not most customer service (or lack of) positions.

I was in Paris for the past week and enjoyed always being addressed with a "Bon Jour" and after my purchase, "Merci, Au Reviour". In Mexico, I can always count on walking down the street and being greeted with a "Buenos Dias/Tardes/Noches" by stangers. Granted, these greetings are not in conjunction with making a purchase, however, the courtesy of the greeting is still offered whereas in the USA, one feels as if a favor is being done when making a purchase at a department store these days.

Upon my arrival in the USA after my trip to Paris, the Passport Control clerk sternly told me to "Show my Face" as she compared it to my passport. I called her on it, it wasn't as if I was wearing a mask, telling her that she was rude and she could ask more politely. When she countered with a "Well, how should have I asked", I replied "With a please and welcome back home."

Gotta love the mostly lack of manners and courtesy here in the USA.

[This message has been edited by raffy (edited Nov 15, 2003).]

What? PineyBob, you are something like a "sales trainer', right? "...the person will do engage in the behavior that is most beneficial to them personally or to the company they work for ..." Sorry, I don't want to hard your feelings - Those are the "sales-technics" of the 50's, 60's, 70's.
Next, I have had very, very professional reservation agents (also when booking award flights). With BA and with Delta, especially when you ask for an agent for partner airlines. They took all the time to book an overseas award flight with open-jaw and stop-over. May be I was just lucky.
BTW, anybody can make mistakes. If I get a wrong respond, or what I think is wrong, I ask the agent to check with a colleague and/or supervisor. And yes, I always take a note of the name, and address the agent with his/her name.

Raffy:

You can have this ALL OVER THE WORLD. On my last trip to Graz/Austria I recognized that Slovenia is nearby. I drove to the border and the guy in the booth was, looked, reacted (he barked: "PASSPORT!!!!!") really, really unfriendly .. reminding me on my trips through Eastern Germany (DDR!). I decided that I don't need this, turned around and drove back to Austria (and along the border ... nice scenery, somewhat like Tuscany!)
On the other hand, it's not easy to find unfriendly people around here, S.W.Florida that is. And on my recent trip to Boulder and Vail Colorado, I met only extremely friendly people. All employees at the Omni Interlocken were great, charming, motivated and very helpful.

[This message has been edited by USAFAN (edited Nov 15, 2003).]

I like it. I will add that to my opening speal. Thanks.



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Free Frequent Flyer Miles

I wholeheartedly agree. Especially with the convolutions of the airline industry, I will accept an agent not knowing every law and permutation, but I would expect them to make the effort to find out.

Same issues, different industry: I had bought something at at national chain (Penney's) in a state where sales tax was charged. I went to return it in a state where that item was non-taxable. The saleskid rang up the return, which was less than what I paid for (due to the tax). He tried to tell me the computerized cash register would not allow him to override what was programmed. Ironically, I had worked on the same cash register when I was in college 20 years ago and we could do it then, so I was sure he could do it now (esp with national chain). I told him to get on the phone, call his supervisor and have him/her walk him through how to do it. After he did it, I told him -- it was not the money, which was all of ~55 cents, but his attitude that since he did not know how to do it, his response was it could not be done. I made a point to call customer service in front of him, described the situation, and gave his name. I hope he learned a lesson from that. I figured someone needed to tell him (and Penney's) that that attitude is NOT customer service.


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Da DOK

[This message has been edited by DaDOKin DC (edited Nov 15, 2003).]

"A bad day, or..."?? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

It sure seems that way to me, particularly when it comes to e-mail.

Case in point: I have an inquiry about a billing problem. Send e-mail to credit card company using the hot link.

CSR#1 answers, says (s)he needs additional information and would I send it to him (includes "her" hereafter). I send it, specifically noting the CSR's name in the first line.

CSR#2 replies; reply is totally irrelevant and non-responsive. Apparently #2 noticed one word - "dispute" - in the information I was sending back to #1 and automatically sent a canned response set up for use in cases where customer wants to "dispute" a charge. Had #2 taken the time to read even the first sentence of my response, he would have known this wasn't a "dispute".

I respond, asking that whoever gets this one (a) read it, and (b) pass to CSR#1 for action.

CSR#3 replies; again non-responsive, and again (apparently) not having read or checked the information in my inquiry.

I write back again, summarizing the inquiry, and asking for a responsive response. No reply.

Had the same situation a couple of times when I had a Hotmail problem, dealing with the Hotmail CSRs. It could take five or six e-mails before I would get a responsive response. Don't know if that means I got a CSR that could (and would) read, or whether it was simpy that the randomly-selected response happened by chance to be responsive to the question asked.

I suspect they are indeed judged on how many responses they send out, not on whether the responses are either responsive or correct. This would lead to glancing at the inquiry, finding what appears to be a key word, and hitting a canned response (or just selecting one at random).

Obviously no QC/QA being done, just number crunching ("Gee, you answered 237 inquiries in one hour. That's Outstanding!")

That's pitiful.

Earthlink has a nice way of dealing with this. If you do the online chat type of help, you always get a feedback form which is linked to the specific conversation. (I know it is linked, because at the end of the form they ask if you want them to email you a copy of the conversation.) Maybe, just maybe, some company employee in charge of c.s. is actually reading this thread and will look into this.

There is a utility company (forgot which one)that does a random survey. But it tells you to tell the c.s. rep to connect you to the survey. Whenever I ask to do this, and the rep know he or she did not provide good service, the rep would just hang up. I called back to talk to a supervisor about this once. He told me that he had no way of looking up who the c.s. rep was.

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Free Frequent Flyer Miles

I appreciate the many comments, especially the very cogent discussion of what open jaws are. Follow-up to the story -- called United and was able to reach a very competent and friendly agent on the first try who made the reservation efficiently (with no Saturday night stay requirement!). So despite the attempts (particularly by the two Northwest agents) to sabotage my trip and to cheat me out of my legitimately earned awards, all has turned out well. I think what made me the most angry was being hung up on. I accept that many of these agents don't make very much money and are poorly trained. But hanging up on a customer -- not because they are obnoxious or rude, but because they aren't willing to lie down and take whatever nonsense the agent dishes out -- is completely unacceptable. I think I made the post out of frustration that these types of agents, who quite clearly hate their job and hate their customers and just want to get through their hours, are particularly endemic to airlines (and from my personal observation, Northwest Airlines specifically). I seldom get such rudeness with such frequency from hotel reservationists, travel agents, or virtually any other business (besides Sprint PCS -- and they have since lost me to Verizon). Is there something special about airlines that attracts (or creates) bitter people who don't care about helping customers?

I had a pretty good idea of what it was going to be about from the topic. Maybe I'm a good guesser.

Have a nice week.