A bad day, or...
 

I needed to rant. I had two simple tasks to do today -- book one open-jaw roundtrip award ticket with NW, and one open-jaw roundtrip on United using US miles.

Call #1 to Northwest. I provide info. I want to go MSP-SFO-BOS. Agent is surly. "That is not an open jaw," she states. "Why not?" I ask. "You have to return to your origination city." Bulls**t, I think. I do the hang up and call back again trick.

Call #2 to Northwest. I provide info. I want to go MSP-SFO-BOS. Less surly, but still mean. "You want MSP-SFO-MSP?" she asks. "No, I want MSP-SFO-BOS." "I can give you SFO-BOS," she says. "I would like to take a redeye on Delta," I said. "That flight doesn't exist," she says. "Yes it does, I say." I give her the flight numbers. "Oh. Well you can't do that anyway because it's not an open jaw." "Why not?" I ask again. "Because you're not returning to the city you left from." This time I've had it. "But an open-jaw by definition on the policies published in all of your documentation as well as on your website allows you to open the jaw either at the origin or the destination." Click. She hangs up on me! At no point was I rude or obnoxious -- but she certainly was to me!

Call #3 to Northwest. Agent is friendly. Arranges everything perfectly. Everything is perfectly fine. Ticketed.

Call #1 to US Airways. I want to book a ticket on United. I give info. "You don't have a saturday night stay so it will cost 40000 miles." Oh...forgot about that. "I'll call United then instead." The agent replies, "it won't matter, they require saturday night stays too. You'll have to pay the extra miles no matter who you book through." I reply "I'm pretty sure United has no sat. night stay requirement." She says "I'm pretty sure they do." Whatever. I say goodbye and hang up.

Now, is it just me or do the vast majority of these agents either 1.) have no concept of proper customer service, or 2.) are completely misinformed yet tell us bald-faced lies as if they were scripture? Who trains these folks? It is really sad when passengers know more about the rules than the representatives of the companies that make the rules. And it is totally out of hand that it took 3 calls at Northwest to finally get a semi-friendly, competent agent capable of doing something without grandstanding, making things up, or hanging up on their customers.

Frankly, the culture developing at the big airlines clearly does not include either competence or customer friendliness. I am incensed.

Get used to it. Unless the job situatiion gets so bad that someone who is trainable is willing to take a phone rep job things are gonna stay the same. If things get so bad that you gotta look for a phone rep job God help us, 'cause there won't be anybody for the phone reps to talk to. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

that was well put, snake...

Sad? Yes, but unfortunately necessary to survive in today's environment. It's also a source of comfort when things go the way you already know they should.

IMHO, this lesson is applicable in many situations one encounters on a daily basis. This, I believe, is the genesis of why many people distrust attorneys. It is not possible for most people (self grudgingly included) to "know more about the rules" than even the average attorney.

That said, its still the stuff good rants are made of and no one should begrudge you that robinhood!

This is also a symptom of the ever worsening situation of both finding standard award availability and the ridiculous heaps of varying rules and restrictions placed on them. Not that this example was that extreme but the agents all too often can't get their own policies right, much less those of their partners. Don't look for online booking engines to help either! They don't do open jaws.

I think you can add this comment to many big companies in many industries. But each company has their share of exceptional employees (who know what customers mean), and their share of dead wood that think they are doing you a favor just by picking up the phone.

You ever call AT&T (Cell Service)? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif I wanted to throw the phone through the phone. After 3-4 people, "Let me see if I can get you taken care of Sir". Sure enough!

When their cup is half full http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif.

I work in a large company and I hate to admit it, but we have it too.

I don't expect every agent to be an expert on every rule which is why I wish the training would teach the skill to say "I don't know the answer to that, do you mind holding while I look up the answer?"

I sometimes get the impression that the agents are judged on how many people they help, not on how well they help them.

I agree that you were not treated very nicely with Northwest customer service. I had a very similar experience trying to book Harrisburg, PA/Detroit/Columbus. I also just hung up the phone and called back two more times until I got what I needed.

Where I AM confused is that I thought what you were doing was basically a one way trip with an intermediate stop. Why do you consider this an open Jaw RT?

I have worked in a call centre. The problem is that there is a rather large chasm between call agent and soup divider. The soup divider listens in to the agents conversations a few times a month (at best!), the rest of the agent's assessment is purely based on net number of calls an hour. Top management tend to set targets based on this figure. When it comes to quality of customer service, the training of agents in 'in-house' call centres is adequate; the quality of the agents is usually below that level. They have no commitment to the job, hence they also lack a commitment to the customer. When it comes to outsourced call centres....if an in-house call centre trains their employees 120 hours before they are left to their own devices, an outsourced one will train the employees for about 15 hours...

Thank you, fellow Orange Contean, for a postive post. Just for the record, I redeemed four transatlantic awards on Delta and their partners this year and last and always had the pleasure of taking to well-informed, courteous, and helpful agents. I don't think it was just my luck. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

For awhile now I have had a personal policy of always getting the first and last name and location of the rep I am speaking with (or other identifying info)and writing it down before I tell them what I want. Then I use that person's name in the conversation, so that they know that I know who they are. Rarely do I get poor service after that, and the few times that I do, I take great pleasure in calling back and asking to speak to a supervisor, who then receives enough info from me to actually do something about the employee.

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i do the same thing pgary..except i always start off by saying, in case we are disconnected, do you mind if i get your name and the city you are in? that way they are not on the defensive right away

still do not understand...what is an open jaw??

Open jaw #1 - you fly from city A tocity B. You return from city C to city A. There is an "open jaw" between cities B and C.

Open jaw #2 - you fly from city A to city B. You return from city B to city C. Same thing, but less comon.

It is assumed you get between the two open jaw cities one way or another (planes, trains, and/or automobiles).

Specifically permitted on most award tickets, not too sure about paid tix. With an award you can generally do an open jaw on both ends! Cool.

However - having said all that - not too sure where MSP-SFO-BOS fits as an open jaw. I guess he starts at MSP and finishes at BOS (duhhh). OK - open jaw. Can't understand why the agent didn't grok that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigLar:

Open jaw #1 - you fly from city A to city B. You return from city C to city A. There is an "open jaw" between cities B and C.

Open jaw #2 - you fly from city A to city B. You return from city B to city C. Same thing, but less comon.

However - having said all that - not too sure where MSP-SFO-BOS fits as an open jaw.

QUOTE]

I agree on your open Jaw #1. As an example you leave LAX, fly to JFK, get into a car drive to BOS, and then fly back to LAX. That is the typical open jaw. Now you can leave from LAX, SNA, ONT, or BUR and return to another because they are "co-terminals".

Your open jaw #2 describes MSP-SFO-BOS. Personally I don't think that is an open jaw (although I don't claim to be an open jaw expert in scenario number 2) when outside of co-terminals. If you ask me its two one ways. What if you went SFO-MSP-BOS, that's still scenario number 2. I can't see how that could be an open jaw, that's a one way trip with a stop, or again two one ways.

So are there any Open Jaw experts out there that can explain scenario number 2 or the routing the original poster had. The more I think about it I guess I can see why the res agents has difficulty with it (I'll take any politeness out of the equation for now).

If I leave LAX, go to ORD and return to SFO is that an open jaw? If it is, then same scenario and you "return" to DFW is it? If so, then same scenario and you then go to to BOS is it? I guess in my opinion if isn't a co-terminal then it isn't a round trip, thus not an open jaw. Or said another way you can't have an open jaw on the departure/return city only somewhere in-between.



[This message has been edited by 1K_From_SNA (edited Nov 14, 2003).]

This is the general idea behind an open jaw:

" Open-Jaw Trip means travel that is essentially of a round-trip nature except that the outward point of arrival and the inward point of departure are not the same or the outward point of departure and the inward point of arrival are not the same. Open jaws are allowed (unless there is a restriction in the fare rules) when the mileage between the open-jaw points is equal to or less than the mileage of the shortest sector flown. "

So, unless I'm wrong, MSP-SFO-BOS could be considered as an open jaw because the distance between MSP and BOS (1124 miles) is less than the distance between MSP and SFO (1589 miles) an the distance between SFO and BOS (2704 miles).

I use open jaw tickets type # quite often (I had an ORD-CDG-SEA flight last month).

Less common are either double open jaws or open jaws between two countries (I've booked a MIA-SYD-YUL ticket two weeks ago on Air Canada).

You are right, this is not an open-jaw becase BOS-SFO is a greater distance than the flown segments.

Yes

No but DFW-LAX-ORD could be http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

You can even have an open jaw on both the inbound and the outbound end, it is called a double open jaw.

I hope this helps,

Regards,
FRAC

BTW, the open jaw definition is from Alaska Airlines. I am sure there is a formal 'IATA' definition but I don't have access to it.

FRAC

Thanks for the informative post. I finally understand open jaw travel.

At least until another FTer posts a different explanation http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Many, if not most, passengers probably don't know these rules, and instead can only depend on an airline or travel agent (the majority of whom I actually do consider to be dependable). What's sad is that these passengers don't put any effort into preparing a little themselves. So it's no surprise that there are times when one will run into a situation where the customer's ignorance ends up being taken advantage of (purposely or inadvertently) by the representative/agent/clerk. Knowing what your dealing with, as FTers usually do, puts one in a better and more knowledgeable position when it comes to putting travel plans together. This is also true in other common situations.

A case in point: I helped my mother to buy a car this summer. She wanted just a "normal" car with none of the frills, but all three cars the dealer had on his lot of the make and model my mother wanted had a sunroof. When I asked the dealer about ordering one without a sunroof, he replied that this make and model only came with a sunroof. I knew this to be untrue as I had previously done my homework. (Got the car later on without a sunroof from a different dealer). I don't mean to put down car salespeople here, or to point fingers in any of the situations brought out on this thread, but just to point out the sad necessity nowadays of having to often depend on yourself rather than what the "expert" says.

Whether it is the car salesman of the reservation agent the person will do engage in the behavior that is most beneficial to them personally or to the company they work for.

Res agents are IMO poorly trained so that most people will not know the rules, including that agents. It preserves profits. they recieve bonuses based on number of completed, calls not number of satisified customers.

I get it. I could be dangerous now. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif

I don't recall doing an open jaw from the departure city. I leave home and I come back home. But up until now I'd be one of those dummies when I was told I couldn't do it, I'd have said OK.

Thanks FRAC.....

My thoughts about this experience is that they do not soley apply to airline telephone representatives, I believe the lack of manners in the USA applies each day to many, if not most customer service (or lack of) positions.

I was in Paris for the past week and enjoyed always being addressed with a "Bon Jour" and after my purchase, "Merci, Au Reviour". In Mexico, I can always count on walking down the street and being greeted with a "Buenos Dias/Tardes/Noches" by stangers. Granted, these greetings are not in conjunction with making a purchase, however, the courtesy of the greeting is still offered whereas in the USA, one feels as if a favor is being done when making a purchase at a department store these days.

Upon my arrival in the USA after my trip to Paris, the Passport Control clerk sternly told me to "Show my Face" as she compared it to my passport. I called her on it, it wasn't as if I was wearing a mask, telling her that she was rude and she could ask more politely. When she countered with a "Well, how should have I asked", I replied "With a please and welcome back home."

Gotta love the mostly lack of manners and courtesy here in the USA.

[This message has been edited by raffy (edited Nov 15, 2003).]

What? PineyBob, you are something like a "sales trainer', right? "...the person will do engage in the behavior that is most beneficial to them personally or to the company they work for ..." Sorry, I don't want to hard your feelings - Those are the "sales-technics" of the 50's, 60's, 70's.
Next, I have had very, very professional reservation agents (also when booking award flights). With BA and with Delta, especially when you ask for an agent for partner airlines. They took all the time to book an overseas award flight with open-jaw and stop-over. May be I was just lucky.
BTW, anybody can make mistakes. If I get a wrong respond, or what I think is wrong, I ask the agent to check with a colleague and/or supervisor. And yes, I always take a note of the name, and address the agent with his/her name.

Raffy:

You can have this ALL OVER THE WORLD. On my last trip to Graz/Austria I recognized that Slovenia is nearby. I drove to the border and the guy in the booth was, looked, reacted (he barked: "PASSPORT!!!!!") really, really unfriendly .. reminding me on my trips through Eastern Germany (DDR!). I decided that I don't need this, turned around and drove back to Austria (and along the border ... nice scenery, somewhat like Tuscany!)
On the other hand, it's not easy to find unfriendly people around here, S.W.Florida that is. And on my recent trip to Boulder and Vail Colorado, I met only extremely friendly people. All employees at the Omni Interlocken were great, charming, motivated and very helpful.

[This message has been edited by USAFAN (edited Nov 15, 2003).]

I like it. I will add that to my opening speal. Thanks.



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I wholeheartedly agree. Especially with the convolutions of the airline industry, I will accept an agent not knowing every law and permutation, but I would expect them to make the effort to find out.

Same issues, different industry: I had bought something at at national chain (Penney's) in a state where sales tax was charged. I went to return it in a state where that item was non-taxable. The saleskid rang up the return, which was less than what I paid for (due to the tax). He tried to tell me the computerized cash register would not allow him to override what was programmed. Ironically, I had worked on the same cash register when I was in college 20 years ago and we could do it then, so I was sure he could do it now (esp with national chain). I told him to get on the phone, call his supervisor and have him/her walk him through how to do it. After he did it, I told him -- it was not the money, which was all of ~55 cents, but his attitude that since he did not know how to do it, his response was it could not be done. I made a point to call customer service in front of him, described the situation, and gave his name. I hope he learned a lesson from that. I figured someone needed to tell him (and Penney's) that that attitude is NOT customer service.


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Da DOK

[This message has been edited by DaDOKin DC (edited Nov 15, 2003).]

"A bad day, or..."?? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

It sure seems that way to me, particularly when it comes to e-mail.

Case in point: I have an inquiry about a billing problem. Send e-mail to credit card company using the hot link.

CSR#1 answers, says (s)he needs additional information and would I send it to him (includes "her" hereafter). I send it, specifically noting the CSR's name in the first line.

CSR#2 replies; reply is totally irrelevant and non-responsive. Apparently #2 noticed one word - "dispute" - in the information I was sending back to #1 and automatically sent a canned response set up for use in cases where customer wants to "dispute" a charge. Had #2 taken the time to read even the first sentence of my response, he would have known this wasn't a "dispute".

I respond, asking that whoever gets this one (a) read it, and (b) pass to CSR#1 for action.

CSR#3 replies; again non-responsive, and again (apparently) not having read or checked the information in my inquiry.

I write back again, summarizing the inquiry, and asking for a responsive response. No reply.

Had the same situation a couple of times when I had a Hotmail problem, dealing with the Hotmail CSRs. It could take five or six e-mails before I would get a responsive response. Don't know if that means I got a CSR that could (and would) read, or whether it was simpy that the randomly-selected response happened by chance to be responsive to the question asked.

I suspect they are indeed judged on how many responses they send out, not on whether the responses are either responsive or correct. This would lead to glancing at the inquiry, finding what appears to be a key word, and hitting a canned response (or just selecting one at random).

Obviously no QC/QA being done, just number crunching ("Gee, you answered 237 inquiries in one hour. That's Outstanding!")

That's pitiful.

Earthlink has a nice way of dealing with this. If you do the online chat type of help, you always get a feedback form which is linked to the specific conversation. (I know it is linked, because at the end of the form they ask if you want them to email you a copy of the conversation.) Maybe, just maybe, some company employee in charge of c.s. is actually reading this thread and will look into this.

There is a utility company (forgot which one)that does a random survey. But it tells you to tell the c.s. rep to connect you to the survey. Whenever I ask to do this, and the rep know he or she did not provide good service, the rep would just hang up. I called back to talk to a supervisor about this once. He told me that he had no way of looking up who the c.s. rep was.

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I appreciate the many comments, especially the very cogent discussion of what open jaws are. Follow-up to the story -- called United and was able to reach a very competent and friendly agent on the first try who made the reservation efficiently (with no Saturday night stay requirement!). So despite the attempts (particularly by the two Northwest agents) to sabotage my trip and to cheat me out of my legitimately earned awards, all has turned out well. I think what made me the most angry was being hung up on. I accept that many of these agents don't make very much money and are poorly trained. But hanging up on a customer -- not because they are obnoxious or rude, but because they aren't willing to lie down and take whatever nonsense the agent dishes out -- is completely unacceptable. I think I made the post out of frustration that these types of agents, who quite clearly hate their job and hate their customers and just want to get through their hours, are particularly endemic to airlines (and from my personal observation, Northwest Airlines specifically). I seldom get such rudeness with such frequency from hotel reservationists, travel agents, or virtually any other business (besides Sprint PCS -- and they have since lost me to Verizon). Is there something special about airlines that attracts (or creates) bitter people who don't care about helping customers?

I had a pretty good idea of what it was going to be about from the topic. Maybe I'm a good guesser.

Have a nice week.