Looking for a FF Attorney
 

I unfortunately am having a major problem with an airlines FF program and feel its time to "not take matters into my own hands". I've have been sending letters, faxes, and making numerous calls to this airline and they simply refuse to answer any of my queries. My account was transferred to them from another airline and they refuse to acknowledge the account even exists. A friend of mine works for this particular airline and told me they are aware of this account. I recently sent a demand letter with a reply by date for information and surprisingly, no response. Its a foreign airline but it has a FF office here in the States and flies to numerous cities here as well. I have over 20 F tickets from the US to Europe in this account and I haven't been able to use them since the account was transferred in January 2003.

Anyone know if there is a listing of attorneys who specialize in FF cases? Can I make a claim here in the US or do I have to go to the airlines home base?

If you are contemplating filing a lawsuit, nothing will prohibit you from filing here in the United States, assuming of course, that you are a citizen/resident. But I would be surprised if the conditions of the carrier's frequent flier program did not attempt to contractually fix venue for litigation (or arbitration) in their home forum. That said, in order to get the lawsuit dismissed, the defendant carrier will have to assert forum non conveniens grounds and convince a court here that its forum selection clause is not unconscionable, a position that is not always tenable. If you really want to get a flavor for the legal issue involved, check out the Supreme Court's opinion in Carnival Cruise Lines v. Shute, 499 US 585 (1991). Good luck!

[This message has been edited by cAAl (edited 10-21-2003).]

MileTex,

Sounds to me like you've found a possible attorney -- contact the last poster!

I played polo once with this guy and only knew he was an attorney in San Francisco. Afterward, I started seeing him quoted in all the major travel magazines as a travel attorney. It's been a while so I just called his secretary to make sure the number's still good.

Alexander Anolik
693 Sutter St., Sixth Floor
San Francisco
415-673-3333

BosSox45 or similar name is an attorney. So is the nice guy (real name known but FT name forgotten) in Chicago who gave me an upgrade in a Saddam contest on FT

I;m not sure if they have them in the states, but here in the UK - the next step would be to go to your local consumer organisation and ask them to deal with it ... if that fails, then go to a lawyer.

I have never heard of this before. How could be done between two different airlines? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif I'll be very interested if this were ture.

terry...it could be that the mi's were transfered from a defunct carrier...pan am mi's went to delta when pan am went under.

Don't waste your time; he's a transactional [as opposed to litigation] attorney who got into the news by advising travel agencies insofar as their registration obligations under California's then new Seller of Travel Law. Your question and forum for resolution are 180 degrees opposite.

Besides, how much money are you willing to spend against this airline? Whatever the amount, the odds are legion you won't be able to recover your attorney's fees even if successful.

More to the point although I am sure they won't be interested in your case, why don't you contact the attorneys who represented plaintiffs in the landmark Wolens vs. American Airlines case [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=U10324]? I believe they would be BRUCE J. ENNIS JR., Washington, D.C. (JEROLD S. SOLOVY, MARGUERITE M. TOMPKINS, DONALD B. VERRILLI JR., JENNER & BLOCK, RICHARD A. ROTHMAN, BONNIE GARONE, WEIL, GOTSHAL & MANGES, and MICHAEL J. RIDER).

As an alternative why don't you just identify the culprit and publish derogatory remarks [there is nothing actionable about publishing the truth, even if derogatory]? I actually ran across something like this mounted against the California Howard Jarvis tax crusade organization. The fellow secured a confusingly similar URL [hjta.com instead of hjta.org] to promote his story complete with names, dates and other interesting tidbits of info. You might want to check it out for some "ideas."

Good luck!

Someone trying to run from AF??

I would suspect this is a KLM -> NWA tranfer from their great promotion last year. If so, I hope you are successful as they promote their alliance as if they are one program not allowing overlap in the US.

Thanks for all your help. Still debating which action to take. Actually my miles were with the Qualiflyer program and when they went out of business you could transfer your miles to Lufthansa. So Lufthansa is the one who has my miles but refuses to let me use them for some unknown reason.

It depends on the supposed value of your miles - but I would try small claims court - which seems to be succesful in many cases as airlines loathe to spend money and effort on them.

That make sense then. I thought someone might have found a secret way to transfer account and miles between airlines. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Small Claims Court won't help as they all have low maximum, depending on state. After all, it is for small claims. MileTex is talking about a six figure claim. Maybe you could post on LH forum and see if someone may have better knowledge of this.

[This message has been edited by TerryK (edited 10-22-2003).]

No it isn't. This promotion (or challenge) matched miles in another airline's account for KL points and status. No transfers involved. I suspect a NW => KL transfer although I am not aware of KL having a FF affairs office in the U.S.

Another possibilities include Qantas if the transferred account was a BA EC account domiciled in the S.W. Pacific/Oceania or perhaps an AsiaMiles to EC transfer (if one moves the account domicile from certain Asian countries to elsewhere). BA is the only non-U.S. airline with a FF affairs office in the U.S. AFAIK.

I am a litigator but do not specialize in travel law. Without knowing the particulars it is hard to say what your best course of action is and how likely it is you could recover against a foreign corporation here in the US. Lufthansa does have officer here though do they not?

This issue as I see it is that you don't have a contract or agreement with Lufthansa. What exactly do you have in writing regarding the situation.

Did you rely in any way on Lufthansa's offer in making travel decisions? What did Lufthansa receive in exchange for honoring these miles?

It certainly is possible to obtain attorney's fees in such an action depending on where it is filed. Many states have unfair business practices acts that provide attorney's fees and treble damages. Other potential causes of action would be fraud and breach of contract.

I am just unclear as to what you have an writing and what assurances were made to you. I recommend you don't provide too many details on a public forum however, as it could come back to haunt you.

Even if you win in small claims court, there is no way to force the airline (or another person for that matter) to pay.

I recall that in fall of '02 Qualiflier members had the choice to transfer to the LX travel club or programs of other qualiflier members. TAP and LOT come to my mind. But transfer from Qualiflier to LH?? Am I missing something?

Have the sheriff seize assets of the airline, and then start MileTex Airline? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif


------------------
Middle_Seat

Last week it was reported, that a guy could not get Lowe's to pay a small claims judgement. So, they guy shows up at one of their stores with a couple sheriffs and pulls a bunch of lawnmovers out of the store, and subsequently puts the merchandise up for auction.

Imagine MileTex showing up at JFK just around peak check-in time and have a few computers pulled out from LH check-in counters!!

If it's enough then it's probably cheaper for LH to just play dumb instead of releasing them...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

I have rental property and finding assets is tough. I've always garnished wages, but it would be hilarious to watch the Sheriff takes posession of a plane because the airline ignores the "judgement" just because its Small Claims Court. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif

Originally posted by letiole:
Originally posted by smarten:
Actually, regardless of how anyone became "famous" or "newsworthy," Alexander Anolik is a recognized expert in the field of Travel Law, and is the author of a periodically updated (at least as of the early 1990s, last time I checked) treatise by the same title, found in many major law libraries throughout the the country.

It is also found in some smaller law libraries, too, such as that of the U.S. District Court for the Northern Mariana Islands. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Why don't you consult that treatise first? And it wouldn't hurt to ask whether he does take some plaintiffs' litigation cases. If not, or if he's semi-retired, consulting published cases is one way to find attorneys. Another is to ask a lawyer who he would recommend, other than himself. If Mr. Anolik in fact does not do litigation, then I would certainly respect any recommendation he would make.

But don't dilly-dally (procrastinate). There may be a statute of limitations that might expire on your cause of action.

Also, regarding pessimistic comments about likelihood of success, reimbursability of legal fees, etc., that's what you pay an attorney to evaluate.

Plaintiffs fees have been known to be paid as a portion of the recovery rather than up-front, if your lawyer thinks there is a reasonable likelihood of success.

And "self-help" methods like setting up an internet site are unlikely to get your miles back.

My guess is that the carrier may be purposely trying to run out the statute of limitations.

Get hot!

A few observations:

1. If the problem is getting the airline to respond, have you considered trying to get a travel ombudsman involved? There are a number of them out there (Conde Nast Traveler magazine comes to mind, also one that is quoted on WebFlyer). Since they have the ability to publicize lack of cooperation in a nation-wide or world-wide forum, they can often command attention.

2. I was also a member of Qualiflyer before they went Tango Uniform, and would have liked to transfer my miles into LH, but as I recall one didn't have a lot of choice. If I remember correctly (and you might want to do a search in the Qualiflyer archives), you had to have earned the plurality of your Qualiflyer miles on LOT in order to transfer them to LH.

3. And, I think someone (Marvella?) commented on how slow Qualiflyer was in getting the miles transferred to LH, with LH saying there was nothing they could do until the miles were actually transferred to them. Have you checked with Qualiflyer to ensure that they sent the miles to LH rather than to TAP or someone else?

4. I'm not a travel law lawyer, so this may not be viable, but have you tried contacting the U.S. Department of Transportation? I seem to remember that in order for LH to fly into and out of the U.S., they had to agree to DOT jurisdiction on some matters, and the FF program as to Stateside members might be one of those matters. I'd bet DOT could get LH to respond!

I did not hear about this, but that Lowes story is quite funny.

It would be better if MileTex just took a plane and auctioned that off. I assume any proceeds over the judgment amount would have to be given to the airline, but it would sure be funny anyway. Now if only he can figure out which small claims count to sue in. I assume he can't just sue in Texas and then show up in another state to collect his plane.

USAir once made me pay a $35 expedite fee because their website was down and I was forced to book an award ticket over the phone. If I sue and they don't show up, can I get a plane too?

It's a fun fantasy to imagine you could seize a plane but
(a) No judge in their right mind would allow it AND
(b) Rarely do the airlines own their planes, it's usually some separate leasing corporation.

In fact, airlines own little of what carries their brand.

You'd have much better luck attaching a checking account, and there are a number of ways to find out which accounts the airline has (one of the easier being to make a small payment to them with a check and reading the endorsement on the returned check).

You know of a bank that still returns checks this day and age?

Off topic, but that's one of my gripes: The check is a direction by the account-holder to his bank, and belongs to the drawer (maker, person who signs it) and in law used to have to be returned to him by the bank when it paid the check out of his account.

About two decades ago, some banks decided they would unilaterally destroy the account-holder's property instead of returning it to him. Oh, they dressed it up as an "enhancement" (maybe that's where the airlines' publicists got the idea), "We're destroying your property in your best interests so you won't have to deal with it." Wait a minute - if I want to destroy my property, I know how to do it, and it should be *my* choice, not my agent's.

Also, once destroyed how do you prove payment down the line? (I know, they say they keep a microfilm copy for "up to XX years", but how long is "up to XX years"? Like "save up to 50%" it means nothing specific; they could meet that promise by keeping the microfilm ten seconds.)

More importantly, having worked in law, I know that it essentially is destroying evidence in case of a crime. Destruction of the check itself makes it almost impossible to prove forgery, since the microfilm (which has poor resolution) won't show some of the tremors and traces a handwriting expert looks at, and totally eliminates the information about pressure, and fiber disturbance the expert looks for to see if there has been tracing, or alteration of the original. Also, by destroying the check you have destroyed the fingerprints (more importantly, in the case of a stolen check which has been illegaly cashed, it destroys the "fist" on the back where the thief endorsed the check - you catch lots of thieves that way, since endorsing a check while wearing a glove is unusual enough to be remarked on).

The most important part to me, though, is that your bank is destroying your property without your permission. Does that give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about the honesty of your bank?

Anyway, I was always able to find a bank that returned checks (it was a matter of principle to me), but last year the little country town bank (the last one I was able to find that still returned checks) wrote me that they were going to do me the great favor of destroying my property. I haven't been able to find an "honest" bank since then.

If anyone has one, please let me know.

OK, now that I've had that rant, I'll sit down and color quietly.

Interesting Counsellor. My credit union gives me the option of having the checks returned. If I chose that option, it comes with a price tag - I can't remember how much - so I've never opted for it. I might look into it and reconsider.

Banknorth, N.A. (branches in New York State and all the New England states except R.I.) still returns checks by mail. More about their personal checking accounts, some of which are free, here.

Farmers & Merchants Bank ( branches in Centre and Leesburg, AL that I know about), still returns checks - I know because my late father's account is there.

Banks who send the checks back:
SunTrust - HQ Atlanta
World Savings - HQ Oakland, CA
Republic Bank - HQ St. Pete, FLA

Regarding the FF Attorney, I would LH give some more time. I had done business with them (HQ Cologne & FRA and Tech in HH), they are a little slow, but always very correct. Actually, I would try to get in contact with their legal department (Rechtsabteilung) and explain the situation ... a law suit (in the US!!), bad publicity is the last thing they want ..

[This message has been edited by USAFAN (edited 10-25-2003).]

There is a case from the 70's I believe where a man in New York got a judgement against the former Soviet Union for $25000. When the Soviet Union failed to pay, he got a federal marshall and went to JFK and seized an IL62. The Soviet Union complained to the State Departement but the State Department told the Soviet Union that we have rule of law in the US and that they couldn't do any thing. Shortly, there after, the Soviet Union paid up.

I have heard of ground handling companies chaining up pushback trackers to foreign carrier airlines to force payment.

I know of an attorney who managed to get a default judgment against a major US airline over a frequent flier dispute. He had sued in a municipal court, and asked for the jurisidctional limit. Served the president of the airline. Papers must have gotten lost, airline didn't respond w/in 28 days, got defaulted. Airline couldn't get out of the default, but refused to pay. Atty. threatened to attach the judgment against a jet when it came in to the local airport. Airline paid default judgment.

One you might not suspect: Citibank returns my canceled checks. About every two years they tell me they will "enhance" my account by stopping to return them, and it does require an annoying phone call, but the canceled checks are still coming.

Even if canceled checks are not returned, I believe every bank will do a front and back photocopy on request (for which there may be a fee).

I'm a customer of another big bad bank -- Bank of America -- and they return my cancelled checks every month. Furthermore, I have NEVER been forced to call them to make them continue doing so. Maybe I'm grandfathered in somehow.

I didn't choose B of A, I just ended up with an account there as the result of a couple of mergers (Hibernia Bank -> Security Pacific -> B of A).

A nice feature (fairly new) on B of A online banking is that you can click on a check description to pull up an image of that check. Of course, they may now try to use that as a pretext to discontinue sending me my cancelled checks. We'll see! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif


Kathy

Thanks to all of you for the leads on banks that still return cancelled checks.

FlyerTalkers are great!

About 5 months ago, J.P. Morgan Chase began sending me a sheet of photocopies with my statement. I called and complained and they now send back my cancelled checks. So you can add them to the list of those banks that will return checks.

The Citibank Private Bank in the US has started doing this as well (not sure about Citibank in general). I don't write that many checks on that account so I'm not sure if they are still sending out the original checks to customers.

Unfortunately, in my experience UK banks do not send copies. The NatWest private bank thought it was quite strange when I requested them and hit me with a charge of something like £2.50 per copy. The Citibank Private Bank here hasn't provided me with copies, either.

RichardInSF,
While perhaps most judges would not allow the seizure of an airplane, wouldn't there be some judges who feel offended that an airline tries to make itself larger than life, and order the seizure of the plane to sort of show that the institution of justice is still the boss? It might generate interesting media coverage also if a commercial jetliner was seized by a local official?

Another bank that returns cheques:

Wachovia