jetsetter, Thanks for explaining that time is involved. I have spent about 25 hours putting together four information packets to sell on ebay. They include complete explanations of the programs, step by step directions, and BOTH internet links and phone numbers for every step involved. A much greater time commitment, however, is answering the flood of emails from potential customers - most of whom never actually make a purchase. Many of them did not read the description well and are asking questions answered there. My point: A lot of work is involved to make money from information like this.

cactuspete, I cannot agree that everyone who sells on ebay gives little or nothing to FT. I cannot speak for everyone but I have contributed in a small way to information about Qualiflyer and have given things away on CC, according to my means. I am currently researching the Diners Club Mexicana 1=1 uncertainty - when I find out more I will post back here on FT. I don't see what selling on ebay has to do with lack of contribution to FT.
Secondly, I don't understand why it is more likely "a company will be abused..." because of information sold to a small group on ebay rather than information thousands take advantage of for free on FT.

The funny thing is that the original "information seller" has started one more auction on ebay on the same subject, despite the fact that two other ebayers are obviously giving the information away for free (the $0.01 ones).

I must say I agree with wormwood.
its all very well for a few 10s of ftalkers get a few miles and a few concorde flights but it wont take long for Qantas to realise that their deal is a great deal and retract it. then we (especially in OZ) will all loose out.
i have been changing my *wood miles for 7 years and was the original one to tell of the 2 for 1 deal.
I am now wondering should I have!!!

Unless the information is given away for free on ebay - as a couple people are now doing - the number of people who find out about this through ebay would be a very small fraction of the number who find out from FT. I think you have to be careful not to underestimate how many people read FT and take advanage of deals like this without ever posting.

I still weigh in with cactuspete on this, and not because I am jealous I did not do it/think of it. I don't have to think about it, it is just against my personal moral code of ethics. I just think it is wrong to find something free here, that many contributed to and worked on with no expectation of compensation (and no, that obviously does not include me, I had nothing to do with any and just an observer) and sell it. I think it is dishonest. That's just my opinion though. For the record I also didn't agree with the Goldpoints thing or buy any subscriptions to inside flyer ... is this the worst thing I have seen on ebay? Not by a long shot, but it is still wrong.

I did not do an Ebay auction, but will say, I thought about it. I would not have just copied directly the data from FT, but as I said, I wrote up my own step by step that hopefully can be read even by somebody who flies once in a decade. If I or somebody sold this information, believe me, there would be a lot of e-paperwork and emails back and forth both from actual and prospective customers. Even if you outline step 1, step 2, etc., people half read/skim the data and ask questions that are answered if you carefully read the instructions, etc. I see this all the time at work....you write a 5 page letter explaining all things, and people call and say "what's that about," etc.

I don't think that selling or buying on Ebay means that a Flyertalker has given nothing to the board.

Remember for the average Joe, this is not a hobby. It is maybe like doing taxes, they just want to know the bare minimum of information. They don't want to understand codes, program relationships, etc. They want the path of least resistance from paying $1,200 and sitting on the Concorde. They have no idea what SPG, QF, or BA are what so ever. They don't want to read through 5 12 page threads and have to assimilate the information together needed to take action. Even very frequent business flyers are extremely not familiar with the nuances of ff programs.

And were I to sell the information, I would likely point the buyer back to FT. In my explanation document, I do link to discussion threads on FT where people can read others comments, etc. So if this information were sold, it might actually bring people in to the FT community. There is such a vast sea of people that do not know the nuances of these things, that as a seller I don't think I would fear losing a future sale to a cust who then regularly monitors FT as a result of buying a $25 informational report.

There is perhaps a credible argument that say if ten thousand people did the IF>SPG>QF>BA deal there might be a problem from the perspective of one of the companies. Like say the deal was outlined in the USA Today or the WSJ. But then again, how many Joe Six Packs would "really" do it, and not just say "oh thats nice." etc?

I maybe sent my informational document to say 50 people, and I don't think any of them actually used the deal. They found it interesting, but how many people really will do it. They just largely said "oh jetsetter, only you would come up with or do this," etc. Some people also said there were too many steps/too complicated, etc. Again, if there was a simple way for them, maybe they would do it.

Perhaps I'm stuipid to publish this and not just do it, but would a business model work where say for $1,600 or so you get the pax a Concorde ticket, and you do all the work for them, so they can just watch a baseball game and give you the dates they want to fly and they never have to do those dreadful "complicated" steps? I have been at this FT game for over ten years now, but when I started out as a rookey I don't know that I really would feel comfortable with all the steps, i.e. I might be nervous it won't work, etc. It would be new, and things unfamiliar usually are fearful.

Well, for what it's worth, since the one cent auction with the FT link was created, no one else has bid on the original auction ($31) or the new one by the same seller ($25). That seems to indicate that ebay'ers would, in fact, prefer to wade thru pages of FT posts, instead of paying more to have the research done for them and written up nicely. Not surprising to me, since ebay bidders by their natures are folks looking to save money.

Now, as to whether the $1600 business model would work - check completed auctions and you'll see lots of folks bidding $3000 - 5,000 for concorde tickets. I don't know if these are Starwood miles tickets, but clearly folks will pay that kind of cash to get the tickets outright.

FWIW, there is an article in the WSJ by Jane Costello reagrding this issue.

CLEAR THE AIR

Travelers Hunting eBay Miles Should Heed Cyber Caveats

...The person who responded to a reporter's inquiry sent to the seller's account via eBay's "ask seller a question" feature acknowledged he used the American Airlines name to give the auction a higher profile...

...He also defended his right to buy and sell miles whenever he chooses. "All I'm doing is taking advantage of stupid marketing people in big travel companies," he said. (After speaking with the Online Journal last week, the person who responded to e-mails sent to the eBay seller retracted "the entirety of my statements" on Monday and said the auction in question wasn't his...)

...The airlines, for their part, monitor eBay transactions and say they remain vigilant.

"We reach out when people are doing something that is against the rules," says American's Mr. Kincaid. "If we do identify someone who's trying to sell miles, their account will be closed and they will be barred from participating in the AAdvantage program in the future..."

..."Buying or selling awards puts you in direct violation of an airline's terms and conditions," he says. "In some cases, you could have your ticket confiscated just as you're checking in for a flight. That's a lot of risk in order to save a few bucks, especially with legitimate fares as low as they are right now."


Please also see:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../007676-5.html



[This message has been edited by doc (edited 10-30-2002).]