Having no so-called FF programmes doesn't mean you couldn't be a premium traveller. In the old days many airlines issued courtesy cards to their best customers - who could then use lounges, be upgraded, etc. without accruing any miles for free tickets. In short, the airlines treated these people very well and there were fewer of them. I'd encourage them to go back to such a system but doubt they ever will.

Because I don't always believe in "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

FWIW:

... Levine predicted in the future there will be less disparity in the price of tickets in different classes of travel, as prices of the highest priced tickets are reduced. That may mean more large planes, he said, because airlines will need to book more passengers to pay for each flight.

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/020522/200...2000952_1.html

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I suspect that these programs are here to stay - thankfully! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The undercapacity was due to wanting to provide a desired frequency level. For example, on Delta the PHL-ATL route has about 12 R/T's each day. I guessing that average occupancy is no more than 50%, so let's cut out 6 flights.
Now, instead of a flight about every 90 minutes (from 5:30am thru 8:30pm), it's every 3 hrs. However, most people flying to ATL are doing so to catch a connecting flight. Depending on the connecting flight schedule (remember now it's also be cut in flight frequency), you may have a very long wait until you can catch the next flight.

So, instead of the long layovers on DL flying PHL-ATL-LAX, maybe I should just fly United PHL-LAX nonstop instead?

What Delta (and other airlines) really want to do is to get regional jets involved so they can keep up the frequency of flights, but reduce their costs by not having to operate such large planes. This would seem to make sense, except that many mainline pilots are objecting to it.

Jeff

You are now getting close to the "true market value" of a FF mile. It is a value at which the mile can be readily exchangeable. I would argue that the value for a Hawaii First Class ticket is not applicable, since your miles cannot be readily exchanged for that product.

As alternatives to air flight become more prevalent for awards, you will see what those miles are worth. I continue to hold that the everyday value is about a penny, but more if you are willing or able to find additional award seats (ex. you are elite level).

I have not paid more than $200 for a coach ticket since Sept. 11, so my personal value of miles has declined.

here's my thought on the issue:

For those of us not fortunate enough to afford round-the-world mileage run tickets in first class, or have companies pay for our travel, frequent flier programs seem to be the only way we'll ever know occasional comfort on airlines.

Sure, you could say that travel is rarely a necessity, and that those who want luxury or comfort should pay for it. And I agree it's true that airlines would be forced to improve their products if FF programs were ended. But where would passengers like me end up (fly somewhat frequently, but low fare always)? Stuck in the back, every time, right?

IMO, like it or not we are paying for the FF miles ... some discounted, some ridiculously priced. If the avg price of a coach ticket is now $200 (for example) and one gets 2000 miles for the flight (for example) then about $20 (just a guess) of that fare is 'banked' to cover the miles that are 'given' to you for flying. If the FF programs ended tomorrow, we would surely see reduced fares. Nothing is free, but take the miles and smiles, because you are paying for them regardless.

<<How many of us who slog around for business really need a free flight as a reward? Better just make sure we get the FC seat on the way home in the evening after a tough day on the job out of town. >>

Actually when I travelled a lot for business, I liked the rewards. It enabled us to save a few thousand on a 3 week exotic trip that at the time would not have been possible.

As to FF programs being attributed to the decline in service, I think you can look everywhere in the US at the service industry and while all businesses have toiled endlessly for ways to increase the almighty dollar, they have gradually phased out that better service to increase profits. Maybe it was a way to combat a recession but when the recession ends the service does not return. Airlines make plenty of money from FF programs by selling miles, sending out ads in the FF newsletters, etc. so it makes absolutely no sense to think that service will improve if the airlines eliminate a FF programs which actually are a source of revenue. Also consider that they make the revenue on the miles months if not years before they have to award the flight. Essentially, by the airlines selling miles to partners who award them to customers, the airline is selling a fraction of a ticket far in advance that may not even end up being used if the person does not redeem the miles before they expire.

Also, if a single airline would suddenly end its program, they would probably get blacklisted by many business travellers who would stick with the airlines that give them the miles. So unless the airlines colluded on the matter (which is illegal) it would be pretty difficult to eliminate the programs.

I agree with you on that point. However, airlines could gradually chip away at it until the FF program rewards only those who buy expensive tickets.

An airline could disallow FF miles on the lowest fare class (L and U on Delta, V and W on UA, etc.) I don't see the point in an airline rewarding the same number of miles to someone buying a $200 ticket as someone buying a $1000 ticket for the same flights.

As discussed before, back in the old days, airlines did reward their frequent flyers, although they did so subjectively if that makes any difference. Because the fares were regulated back then, a FF program based on revenue was basically the same as a FF program based on miles flown.

Today's FF programs are based mostly on miles flown rather than revenue, for various reasons. I imagine the airlines would rather reward revenue. After all, the point of the FF program is to keep revenue from going to competing carriers.

[This message has been edited by JS (edited 05-23-2002).]

Some interesting points.

When I used to have to fly ABE-BOS on US : a flight of less than 500 miles, it was often more expensive than an almost 3000 mile flight from ABE-LAX. Basically, the business routes (especially without Sat. night stays) are inflated to gouge the business traveller. I think that is why the airlines will recognize status levels by segments or miles: some business travellers make them a lot of revenue on short segments while getting minimal miles for the trip.

The miles thing has become more appealing to the miles chasers who constantly try to find ways to gain more. If it were solely based on dollars spend, say bye-bye to playing the game and the mileage runs.

It is funny how loyalty programs have become so prevalent even outside the airline industry - everything from Subway cards to those annoying grocery store cards that you have to sign up for just to get the "regular" price.

It seems that often the "value" you get for miles when redeemed for something like magazines is less than what you would get for a flight or upgrade. The actual value of a mile can be debated endlessly because it is arrived at by several variable factors, among them are:

1) what are you redeeming it for
2) what is your perceived value of the award (how much would you actually pay for it - not what is charged for it)

On one hand, getting an award seat is often like pulling teeth, which diminishes the value of a mile.

On the other hand, I can get free stopovers, open jaws, and get the schedule I want without paying extra.

I wanted a certain schedule to fly open jaw EWR-TUS, LAS-EWR and used 20k miles for the flight because I had the miles and to get that schedule for the dates I wanted without a redeye (which I did not want). Had I bought that exact itenary outright it would have cost $1200. Sure I would not pay that much for the flight (just like I would not pay 4 or 5 times coach fare for FC) so one should value miles based on what a person is willing to pay and not solely on what price that the airlines charge. I am not willing to spend an extra day in travel (and thus extra money) just trying to accomodate a cheaper flight. To me, one of the stupidest things people do is plan their vacation based primarily on price of flight and end up spending like $150 more and losing a day's worth of time just to accomodate a flight that is $100 cheaper. With the miles, the flights all are priced the same provided they are available. So I could have perhaps purchased a cheaper roundtrip to TUS, PHX or LAS (maybe for $200-$250 instead of spending 20k miles) and had to drive more to accomodate it, but to me personally, it is worth at least $200 more to not have to waste a day or most of a day driving extra just to accomodate the flight. For me, money is easier to come by than vacation time - so I would perceive the use of miles for this flight to be more than the dirt cheapest roundtrip that could be obtained to go to that region.

To me, based on what I would redeem the miles for and what matters to me, the miles are worth about 2 cents. I think the limited availability is offset by getting the route/schedule that I want without paying extra for it.

If the airlines really wanted to get cute, they would reward $$ spent, not miles flown. I have flown BOS-LGW RT for less than it would cost me to fly BOS-LGA but I get many thousands more miles. Counting miles and segments are stupid for the carriers, what the airlines really want to reward are your $$ spent.

Then again, it's very unlikey that flying a passenger from BOS-LGW costs less than flying a passenger from BOS-LGA. So perhaps the airlines should re-examine their fare structures rather than messing with the FF programs.

AA tried to do that several years ago and got creamed in the marketplace. DL this year ran a promo in which double BASE miles were issued if you paid a high enough fare. Absolutely made business sense to me!


[This message has been edited by RobertS975 (edited 05-25-2002).]

Forget these mileage plans. Instead of being a truly important customer to the airline company as I used to be, to them I'm now just another schm*ck with a platinum card in my wallet and a couple million miles that I don't truly need and won't have time to use in the foreseeable future.