Worst Top Elite level?
 

Inspired from a current thread. Comparing the top tier Elite benefits from all airlines, what is the worst one? On the face of it, it would look like UA's 1K or AA's Platinum are roughly equivalent. But is there an airline that has dropped the ball?

In my book, WN's companion pass., hands down.

I used to think that it was not fair to compare WN's offerings that of other airlines. I changed my mind, they all have to compete.

I have had a CP for two years. I have never used it, not once.

Useless. After sitting my behind in this bus every week of the year, the last thing I want to do is use it again to go on vacation.

Any other candidates for the Razzies of the Freddies?

Ansetts's top level ...

i prefer to think of what's the Best one. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

glass is half full menality. i would take....Continental Airlines.

Another vote for WN

Although I vote WN as the worst for every possible award so take my vote with a grain of salt

Well, if you are top-level elite on either America West or Northwest, that means you had to fly 75k miles on one of their planes...

What benefits could make that worthwhile?!

For best I'd vote for AA because of the VIPOW's and upgradability of all fare classes with miles.

If we were voting on best for lower level elites I'd vote for US because of the SWU's given to Silvers/Golds, generous number of free upgrades for each 10k miles, and upgradability of almost all fare classes with miles.

Personally I don't see how CO can compete with their draconian international premium cabin policies in terms of upgrades and awards, but for someone only interested in flying within the US, I can see it ...

For worst program I'd go with WN if we were including them then DL because of upgrade policies.

[This message has been edited by Beckles (edited 03-01-2002).]

Agree... WN is the worst... and I agree with Beckles on the DL and CO. AA is still my pick of the litter...

OK...granted the LUaer fares stink, but....

1. As a DL PM, I can upgrade myself domestically at the time of reservation (even if that is two months before I fly). You have to admit that is sweet.

2. You do get FREE Crown Room Membership at PM. Not too shabby either.

Maybe the LUser fares remove some of the luster so that DL's elite is not the best, but calling it the worst??!??!?!? Come on. Let's be real.

dbmaury - I agree ( as I type this sipping my FREE beer in the PDX Crown Room awaiting the 10pm flight to ATL). No way Delta is worst. I wouldn't vote them best either, however.
Worst has to go to SWA. Their only level is of no value to me. Used my CP once when a purchased tix would have been about $150 RT. NOt much of a benny.

The fact that DL's PM's can not upgrade the two lowest fare classes period and M class minimum international makes them the worst of all majors (aside from WN). No other major carrier limits upgrades that much to their top tier (or any other tier for that matter).

Name one other major with an FC cabin that does not allow elites to upgrade cheap fares domestically? NW, nope ... CO, nope ... UA, nope ... AA, nope ... US, nope ... The LUser thing puts them right to the bottom in my book.

worst of all majors (aside from WN).


So we agree! SWA is the worst.

I have been one of the most outspoken people regrding the SWU issue on Delta. I would not however rank DL PM at the bottom of the table as there are genuinely worse programs out there.

I do not consider WN a major (I only added that because everyone else is). How can a carrier that does not serve one of New York's three major airports be a major carrier? (Nor do they serve any airport within 3 hours of my home)

As for whether or not DL is that bad, it depends partly on your criteria of course. The fact that no DL elites can upgrade L and U fares is a deal killer for me. No other "real" major carrier places such restrictions on upgrading by its elites.

I don't like to fly WN because of the usual reasons so I am not terribly motivated by their FF program.

However, it is very clean and good considering its simplicity, and the fact that awards are *not* capacity controlled.

So you cannot really say it's a bad program, IMHO. I know the Companion Pass is not terriby useful for reasons already mentioned, but the Rapid Rewards award tix are a Good Thing.

Most of the full-service domestic US airlines FF programs are roughly comparable, they are a give and take and how much you like the top tier depends upon your own particular needs.

For instance, if you travel internationally a lot, CO's top tier might be the worst because of HoKeY upgrade situation. But domestically, many Platinums love CO.

Everybody: please stay away from Delta. Although my upgrade % as gold was great, and as plat is better, the fewer of you the better. Their airport and airplane and phone staffs are usually great, but that MIGHT diminish if too many of you switch to Delta.

So: Delta is the Worst. Spread the word.

As a top-tier DL member I'll chime in here.
There are a couple of passenger profile factors at play: Domestic vs. International and Leisure/Out-of-Pocket vs. Subsidized/Employer-Paid.

If it's not out-of-pocket and domestic, then DL is probably the best program with the CRC and time-of-booking upgrades.
Even mostly LU'ser with CRC, Skymiles probably ranks above the bottom of the frequent flier barrel.

International is another (stinky) kettle of fish.
If a minimum upgrade fare of over $1,000 to Europe is OK, then, DL's for you! Even so, the capacity controls can be *so* strict that folks are talked into waitlisting at those fares, denied the upgrade because Simply Good Business says *NO* same day upgrades *regardless* of front-cabin capacity at boarding. It is my understanding that gate agents have [almost] no leeway in this matter, barring an actual oversold situation. They *will* fly out with BizElite seats empty and folks sitting in coach who paid double the minimum upgrade fare on other carriers.
Platinums do get international lounge access on all tickets (in addition to CRC), though from what I gather those facilities are more on a par with other alliances' mid-tier than top-tier.

To recap - if domestic K fares aren't an issue, DL is the best. However, for out-of-pocket international pax, it's a pretty raw deal compared with top tier benefits on other carriers.

I second Lex, please stay away from DL, so I can get my upgrades. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I don't think WN counts for these purposes.

DL sounds pretty bad for a "major", although free Crown Room is nice..

I have been spending some time with the Air Canada folks and they don't sound too happy.

Actually i rather LIEK teh LU restriction on DL. Flying from SRQ, generally k is the lowest available fare (and it's comparable in price to L fares from TPA). So I get much less competition for upgrades than I would otherwise. As a GM I am roughly 90% on upgrades, and as a PM I am positive I would be right at 100%. As it's been said before, please stay away from DL, it's horrible. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Market Cap in Billions as of March 1, 2002

United - UAL - 0.745
American AMR - 4.21
Delta - DAL - 4.46
Continental - CAL - 2.08
America West - AWA - 0.131
Northwest - NWAC - 1.45
US Airways - U - 0.368
Alaska Air - ALK - 0.852
Southwest - LUV - $15.95

I'm no financial analyst, but I'll go out on a limb and say that if Southwest is the only airline in this group making money AND has a market cap larger than the other 8 "majors" conbined - they are a major airline.

The usual measurement for the "size" of an airline isn't the market cap. It's the revenue, as a reflection of the size of the network and the number of passengers carried.

On that level, AA is far larger than WN, almost 4x.

If you are not primarily a domestic road warrier, then CO is worst.
I think that there is no correct answer. Each program has its strengths and weaknesses, I think smart FT'ers find a program that compliments their individual flying profile.

For instance, I used to be loyal to CO. But when my flying patterns changed from domestic to international, I had to adapt and change to AA.

It seems though that Delta's big saving grace,among its unhappy elites, seems to be lounge access. This gets a big yawn from me. Big deal. So what? AA (as well as UA for that matter) allow access for international travelers.

SWA is a major, like it or not. Or, the majors react to WN pricing.

Southwest top tier is great if you have use for it. Since 9/11, I would rate WN as bottom of the barrell for my purposes. And when my companion pass expires in June it will have expired for the first time in three years.

hmmm, i seem to remember southwest being rated #2 for either number of flights or number of passengers. i would consider them major on that and the fact that they influence the price we pay on other airlines in cities they serve.


------------------
f

uh, NW does not allow international upgrades on any fare less than M across the Pacific and B across the Atlantic, even for Platinum Elite. it's the same I hear over at CO. so all three suck about equally. NW and CO have fabulous upgrade policies for Elites on North American travel, but not for international.

My assertion was not that WN is larger than all of the other airlines, but that their market cap and financial condidtion made them a "major" airline - a top 5 or 6 carrier.

On the topic of programs, I was not a fan of WN because of the boarding process, no forst, etc. However using them for all of my west coast trips in the past year I can appreciate their program. I still have my UA status for long-haul flying, however condidering that your partner points count as status points on WN, it's a great deal. No other airline allows you to earn free flights faster than WN. WN is also the only airline that truly has no blackout dates, including your companion pass person. Think about this, you can use a free ticket and take someone with you anywhere in the U.S. - that's awesone!

i keep aa exp status for upgrading int'l. they have the best policies regarding pricing and vips (although 2's were much better than ow's) i keep nw plat status for upgrading domestically. they are the only major to allow upgrades on domestic award tickets, plus association with co, which i prefer to nw to travel to asia(upgrading is easier than on nw). i have dl, us, and co for no other reason than after sept 11, it was easy to (re)qualify with double status miles.

And just as important: No capacity controls! That's awesome! But I hate standing in line for hours which is what I do whenever I fly WN (especially if I have to connect). Therefore, I avoid WN.

Actually, I would say "major" reflects number of destinations served, and in this area WN is sorely lacking. WN is a "major" if you go by revenue because they have a lot of service to many of their destinations, but when you consider their route structure, there are major gaps. Same could be said of US in the West (though they had plans to fix some of that by adding PDX and SAN, two of the larger cities they don't currently serve).

Beckles, I can see your point, but it doesn't reflect reality. WN is expected to be the largest carrier based on the number of passengers carried, within the next 5 years. If they can do it without flying into the congested major NYC airports, more power to 'em. But if you use the usual industry benchmarks, WN certainly is among the top cariers....

Worst you say? I think US FF programs are pretty generous overall. I'm in Cathay Pacific's Marco Polo club, and top level gets you: no upgrade certificates, no miles bonus, not too much of anything except guaranteed seats and the best shot at operational upgrades (only if coach is completely full). So, let's put this in perspective.....

Southwest is a major. Plain and simple. Sure, thy don't have the long haul international routes. But all of those little, short hops add up. They always turn a profit, and that says something in the airline industry.

If you live in Dallas, and travel on business (or even for pleasure) heavily to other cities in Texas, OK (Houston, San Antontio, El Paso, Lubbock, OK City, Tulsa, etc), Southwest should seriously be considered, especially if Love Field is more convenient than DFW.

I haven't flow Southwest it several years. Being Platinum on AA, it would be tough to go back to SWA. I can't stand the boarding process. Awful. I wanted assinged seats, and I don't like havign to get to the gate super early just to get a decent seat and space for my stuff.

But their award program is stone simple, just like everything else they do. No black outs, no capcity control. No endless array of awards. They just mail you flight coupons as you earn them.

The companion pass can be of great value, unless you travel alone all of the time. Think of how much value this has for small businesses. Think of the value it has if you like to travel around Texas for leisure (its a big state. Flying is frequently the way to go)

If you want to be technical, the industry considers anyone over $1.0B in revs to be a major. Southwest is always included as a major. It is also domestic and point-to-point, versus international and hub and spoke for the other majors, but these are not criteria.

>>> BIAS!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

OK, I like this thread:

WN ---------- > YAWN... while they have cute and young stews,.... the waiting in line and circus at the gate, I have turned down free travel on them, thank you

Delta ---------- > Their wonderful L fare policy is great... It puts their elites( sometimes referred to as suckers, sorry http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif )
in the back. I fly non-rev with a buddy who works for Delta. Almost always get upgraded while a PM sits in the middle section of the plane... Sorry, I laugh my head off every time... Thank you Delta!!! the best airline to non-rev on and pay a fraction of the fare and get an upgrade, it is so appreciated...
Sorry, but we elites at the other airlines are wondering(and loudly sometimes), why do Delta elites stay there? Masochistic??? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

AMERICAN ---- > the best for int'l travel, MRTC, lounge access-and that at a Platinum level(50K), vs. DL(100K) duh! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif , lot's of op upgrades and access to the incredible Oneworld alliance, with BA and QF good partners. Their FF program is the best and the choice of partners to go hop around the world is incredible(why I don't upgrade my tickets to Europe)... With more room throughout coach, coach is actually doable...

British Airways ----- > for us yanks, nothing special, not bad. The way they screwed their own people over in not giving miles on cheap fares to their own people, shameful. The Britts should have voted with their feet. The idea of flying to Australia on a $1,000 ticket and no miles. Get real!

CO/NW---- > best for domestic, hands down. Free upgrades domestically. This was a ways back, but intl'y, they weren't bad, lot's of op upgrades. Good Business Class...
I love the Worldclub! my favorite US airline lounge. QF/BA/CX best otherwise for lounges.

United(Untied)---- >>> some good, some bad...
They don't offer the perks with their partners that AA/Oneworld does. No double miles on partners save certain LH(Luftwaffe http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ) flights... that right there ends it... I couldn't do that... also, UA is cheap with upgrades, but I do like many of their flight attendants, AA could learn a thing or 2... If you connect UA domestic to a connecting partner flight on an award ticket, whatever class you fly, you go coach on United, then, say, Business on Lufthansa. I was appalled when they told me that, I would stay away right there.

ciao...



------------------
Michael
AA PLT,1 MLN Miles+
HH GLD, SCI GLD, MM SIL
LE PRESIDENT ETERNEL DE CAMAIR-CAMEROUN AIRLINES :)

Just to refresh your memory, AA Plat is the same as everyone else's Gold level. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif EXP is everyone else's Plat. I see their marketing scheme worked on you! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

You wondered why DL elites stay with DL. For many of us it makes sense. Out of my home airport, SRQ, DL's lowest published fares are almost always K fares. As a mere Gold Medallion, my upgrade percentage the last two years is very near 100% when originating from SRQ. There are two segments last year I didn't get upgraded: A non-stop SRQ-CVG on a comair CRJ (long story... I usually avoid RJ'sas much as possible), and one segment returning to SRQ from CVG, where I forgot(GASP!) to call at the 72 hour window. I called about 30 minutes late and got shut out. That accounts for about 90% of my flying. The other 10% of my flying is out of TPA, and I am running about 25% or so on upgrades from U fares(yes you CAN occasionally upgrade a "LU-ser" fare, if you play the game right!). So overall my upgrade percentage is running about 92% as a Gold. The ban on L and U upgrades significantly decreases the competition for upgrades, so I don't mind it at all. The 800 mile segments are a big plus, as is the fact that I get 8 of those for every 10,000 base miles. The only thing really lacking in DL's program is SWU's, and since I don't fly any paid international, it's a non-issue for me. I always cash in miles for Biz the few times I go international.

Am I the only one who continues to be amazed that hitting 1MM on USAirways got me a leather luggage tag and a letter, but nothing else. Ever.

>>> When I hit AA 1 million, lifetime AAdvantage Gold status and some upgrades...
Also, my new Platinum card reflects that I am a million miler... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif Hit 2 million lifetime miles and you get lifetime Platinum... that is fantastic!

USAirways is a good airline. You will kindly note that I didn't attack it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

SRQ Guy: Would you please explain how you upgrade an L/U fare? How do you play the game?

I have ocassionally gotten the operational upgrade (on L/U) but that's it. Would love more details. Thanks!


[This message has been edited by paradocs (edited 03-28-2002).]

Sorry duplicate!

[This message has been edited by paradocs (edited 03-28-2002).]