Rewarding the wrong behavior has GOT to stop!
 

A long-time United and Delta flyer, I had my first-ever taste of AA this week. (Figured, hey, UA doesn't fly to El Paso and might as well try a Gold Challenge, as this one flight will get me halfway there...)

My return took me on AA1440 ELP-DFW, leaving @ 7.12am. First trip on AA of course means no elite, and the 20# of training materials I brought along means checking my bag. OK, this means dealing with the lines at the counter. No problem ... stayed at the airport Hilton, arrived at the terminal @ 5.35am. The AA line was about 100 or so people long, with three agents working the counter. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

At about 6.15, two more agents showed up and the line started moving faster. There was an ELP-ORD flight leaving @ 6.50, and they were motivated to get everyone checked in. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

At 6.30, I was third in line. Another minute or two, right?

Wrong! The counter supervisor called for a show of hands for those left in line for the Chicago flight, pulled them all out of line, moved them to the First Class check-in ... and then we watched as ALL FIVE AGENTS pulled from the first class aka Chicago line. All five! The "regular" line peons, all of us who'd been there for upwards of an hour, sat there slack-jawed, unable to believe this was happening.

After about 5 minutes of this, I'd had enough. "Excuse me ...," I called out, about ten feet to the supervisor. "Who's working the regular line?"

"We're all trying to get the Chicago passengers checked in, sir," the same obnoxious supervisor responded.

"You've got 5 people up there! You can't spare one person for the rest of us?"

"There's not too many more people left for Chicago. We'll get to you as soon as we can." She said this as she pulled a 60-something from the "O'Hare Latecomers" line who I'd seen with my own two eyes walk into the terminal at 6.20am for his 6.50 flight!! And he wasn't the only one. Not a single one of the last 20 or so people who checked in for ORD had originally been in front of me in line.

So at precisely 6.43, they finally returned to checking in the hoi polloi. And another counter agent (not the aforemenentioned supervisor, unfortunately, but I was in a hurry) had the UNMITIGATED GALL to tell me as she handed me my boarding pass, "The security lines are very long this morning. Hope you make your flight." http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

Sure enough, 25 minutes in security later, I made it to the gate just in time for the final boarding call. A couple of empty seats coming up on the flight (which was overbooked and, oh, did I mention that they'd given away my seat assignment?!) was the only thing keeping me from the scarlet letters IDB.

I was livid. No, I was beyond livid. Those 15 minutes that ALL FIVE AGENTS spent on Chicago passengers, most of whom had arrived at the airport less than 45 minutes before their flight, could very well have ended up costing me THREE HOURS.

There's a big, BIG issue at work here. Unless you're blind, deaf, and have been living in a cave since mid-September, you know the security requirements for air travel in the United States these days. If you show up at the airport -- not at the gate, but at the airport -- half an hour before your flight is scheduled to leave, then my response would be, "To h*** with you. You're flying standby on the next plane out; hope you get lucky." When the mollycoddling of idiots who can't be bothered to get to the airport early in the morning winds up potentially costing people who DO get there two hours in advance a seat on their flight, then something is SERIOUSLY wrong with the system.

A couple of follow-up questions:

• Has this happened to anyone else on any other airline since 9/11?
• Or is this solely an American, or maybe even an ELP problem?
• And where would I go to bring it to American's attention without whistling in the wind?

I'm not going to ask for anything as, after all, I did make it on to my originally scheduled flight, but talk about a case of negative reinforcement! You'd think someone in a decision-making position would want to know about it ...

SP

Southwest pulled people out of line at the security checkpoints during September, but by late October they stopped, almost certainly for the reason you cite, which economists call "moral hazard". Namely guys like me gaming the system. Fortunately, by then they had the lines under control. Now the lines are 20 minutes max, and I'm perfectly happy to wait.

Hi there,
I recently had the opposite experience at SFO - I was the guilty one arriving late.

I was meant to fly at 13:50 SFO-ORD then connect onto my flight back to LHR. There was a wreck on the 101 freeway and I arrived only 50 minutes before departure. I was confronted by a giant queue. I waited in line and then was pulled to the front to check in.

Fortunately, the SFO agents were clever enough to avoid trouble and only 1 of the 5 agents (of the section I was in) was processing the late comers.

I know the rules and guidelines and by rights I should have been looking at a standby ticket on a later flight. It worked out for me this time but I agree that it's not a particularly fair system. Everybody is made aware of the rules - if you cut it fine you shouldn't expect to queue jump.

Jason

I couldn't agree with you more. It's one thing to handle those already in line if it gets close to boarding time, but to accept late comers at such a late time, is not right. Let them miss their flight! And yes, that goes for me too, if I'm late.

I have seen this at a couple of places/airlines, so I don't think it's just AA or ELP, it happens in other places as well.

Delta has done this to me at SEA. They ask for anyone on the JFK or ATL flights and pull them all over to the First Class check in lines. Once they just moved them to the front of the coach line.

Satellite Parking -- If you had your boarding pass and made it to the gate in time for the final boarding call, how did your seat assignment get given away???

BTW, I agree with your arguments, it certainly is a negative reinforcement.

My TA's confirmation shows that I'd been booked in 14F. The counter agent handed me a boarding pass when I (finally) got to the front of the line ... and when I pulled out my ticket to show the security guard, I saw there was no seat assignment listed on it! I hadn't even noticed it, I was so p***ed off at the whole line-jumping debacle.

So, to answer your question, I have no earthly idea.

All in all, an eventful morning ... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Agree. Have seen it at United as well on occasion.

Also just experienced it at the Fast Track security position where they x-ray your carryon before you enter the airside terminals at LHR.

Only about 20 people in line in this priority Fast Track lane, but it took about 45 minutes as they kept bringing people who were "late" for their flights to the front of the line.

I managed to get to the airport 2 1/2 hours early. Why couldn't they? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Satellite Parking Sorry about your encounter.

Like you, I always get to the airport as early as possible, and have been lucky not to have your experience yet.

I agree that it's very unfair for the ones that are always early... personally, i think the airlines should have people standing at the airport entrances and if you get in late, sorry you are on stand by!

I agree 100%.

This happened to me in SEA about two years ago. I had a flight that left at 1:10 am. There was another flight that left at 12:40.

I had worked until 4:20 or so in Pendeleton, Or, the drove 3 hours back to Seattle, saw the last 6 innings of a Mariners game. I then grabbed a bite at a fast food place, then returned the car. I got in line (no elite/FC counter at all, and the automated check-in was not functioning) at about 11:30 p.m. This was after working all day and driving 3.5 hours.

I waited in an incredibly long line for over 30 minutes, when the agents pulled all the people for the 12:30 flight to the front. At least 40 people who were behind me went to the front of the line, delaying me and everyone else another 20 minutes.

It wasn't so much that I missed a seat assignment, etc., but that I had to stand in line with a large garment bag, a laptop case, and a lawyer's brief bag filled with papers that weighed 30 or so pounds. I was exhausted, and wanted to sit down and not hold my bags any more.

This rewarding of irresponsible behavior (kind of like FEMA rebuilding everyone's house who DOESN'T have insurance after an natural disaster) is stupid. Show up that late, miss your **** flight, or simply ask others if you can cut ahead.... I would have gladly let anyone cut ahead of me... I just didn't appreciate NWA making me do this.

I flew out of ELP a dozen or so times while I lived there post-9/11, from Sept to Jan. FWIW, check in lines and security lines were never that long-- after a few flights, ELP regulars can attest that 45 min. to check in and clear security is usually still fine.

That said....

I don't agree with AA using all 5 agents to check in people for the ORD flight. I'm curious if people behind you ended up actually missing the DFW flight because of it.

My perspective, though, is to have a latecomers line, in the unfortunate event that someone is late beyond their control. Sure people will abuse it: people abuse the express line at the grocery store; people abuse handicapped parking spots and special seat designations at the front of buses. But by and large, it provides a courtesy in people's time of need, and it causes minimal inconvenience for the general populous: if 1 agent were checking in ORD, then your wait in line may have been 7 minutes instead of 5.

I see this everythime I am at the Airport... Delta at FLL makes this standard practice. However, as a GM, I only see this happining and I don't get caught up in all of the mess... I have become almost Exclusive on Delta just because of S*** like this! At that should say a lot as we all know how much Delta is screwing it's Medialian Members!^_

Happened to me at LHR late September. I was made to stay "first" on line for nearly 20 minutes while people who had just arrived at the airport were allowed to go in front of me. The lines at security were biblical. I barely made it to my flight.

Except that the crew was late. They were held up at security. (Or so they said.)

I've also seen this going on for a long time. I've heard people say that it doesn't pay to get to the airport early when they see people getting called out of the line.

Satelite -

Drifting off to a different subject, UA Express will be offering service to El Paso from Denver in the not too distant future. Check the web site for exact dates.

In a somewhat related vein, I was recently required to fly American COS-DFW and return for business. Personally, I had vowed never to fly AA again after their COS staff was directly responsibile for my ex and me missing a cruise out of San Juan several years ago.

Anyway, even a UA 1K doesn't have "squat" for pull on AA. So, I got into the regular line at DFW, which had about 25 people ahead of me when I arrived, including a blind lady and several well into their sunset years. During the 40 minutes it took to check in, I saw one male agent check in three "walkups" ahead of everyone else standing in line. Geeze, maybe one, but not three in succession! Was alot of grublimg from the troops when this was viewed.

Satellite Parking:

Sorry about your lousy check-in experience. I agree - reinforcing the wrong behavior makes me mad.

Having had status on AA for many years, it's been a long time since I waited in any substantial check-in lines. And really long counter lines are NOT a function of September 11, as are the Security Checkpoint lines.

Really long no-status check-in lines (at least on AA) have been a staple of early morning travel for many years.

I'm sure that you realize the realities of flying during the last six months - you're not Mr. Never Travel who needs to get to the airport hours and hours ahead of flight time.

But what got into you to allow about 100 People to get in line ahead of you?? The No-Status Never-Travel line?? What were you thinking?? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The reason I bring this up is that AA makes it very clear that they want all passengers at the gate 30 minutes before scheduled departure.

Having arrived at the airport about 5:35, that left you all of 67 minutes to check your bag and clear thru the random wanding and groping gauntlet. Since last September, I've spent upwards of 45 minutes in security checkpoint lines in similar airports (after having spent no time out front, of course).

You were doomed from the moment you entered the terminal and saw about 100 people ahead of you. I'm amazed you made it to the gate in time to wave bye-bye to the plane as it taxied away, let alone in time to actually get on board.

I agree with Satellite Parking completely. If they made people who didn't arrive with enough time to spare miss their flight, the problem would be quickly solved, because most people would show up on time next time. They might need a few extra Airport Police for awhile to maintain order though http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Although Satellite Parking said that his original boarding pass had no seat assignment, to respond to Eugene's question: On most airlines, if you're not physically present at the boarding gate 20 minutes prior to scheduled departure time, your seat assignments can be released. This is true even if you've checked in before that time elsewhere at the airport. The fact that you made it there prior to "final boarding" is irrelevant if this occurs less than 20 minutes prior to departure.

Also, some airlines are changing the 10-minute rule at which point your reservation goes away to 15 minutes, in order to give them extra time to do the Positive Passenger Bag Match for people that don't board.

Apparently I will be the only one who thinks those agents in ELP were acting properly. I see no reason to make people miss their flights if it's not necessary. If someone is about to miss his flight but the agent is checking in someone who's there 2 hours early, that just makes no sense. They do this in the security lines too. Do you object to it there as well? I've just always found it to be a really smart idea.

Let's look at this from another perspective.

Recently in another country I had to make a connection between 2 seperate flights on the same airline that required me to exit the airside area and re-check-in land side.

The flight was late and the line was relatively short with one person only working the check-in. The idiot in front of me must have taken 10 minutes to check in. Better yet, his flight was in 3 HOURS, while mine was now in 15 minutes. In addition to changing his seat three times and insisting several times that his FF number be included in his booking (it was, but did not show up on the BP on this airline, it never does), he then demanded a written club pass (when his biz bp was just enough). When I finally asked if he could perhaps stop his rantings and idiocy for about 30 seconds so I could check-in for my flight which was now leaving in 15 minutes he basically took the attitude that is being taken here, that I was abusing the system by showing up late and was irresponsible (remember, his flight was in 3 hours, and mine in 15 minutes, I should mention that the agent neither said or did anything during this exchange).

I asked the agent if he was checked in (answer:yes) moved his carry-on with my foot to the side and ignored him. He tried grabbing me and telling me to get back in line. In short, it was an ugly scene.

The point of this anecdote is that the people who are shoved to the front of the line are nopt always necessarily late to the airport and in some cases it is due to the airlines themselves.

In short, this is why I make sure that I have elite qualifications on ALL ALLIANCES, so that I will never have to be in the general line. Yes one day I may get stuck in a general line, but I figure that with 1 world, * alliance, Skyteam and Wings covered (about 32 airlines covered) it will not happen soon.

On the other hand, I will NEVER EVER show up hours and hours before a flight. I do not have the time in my life to wait for hours and hours in line, especially as most of my travel is international and I see how many other countries have set-ups much superior to those in the US and do not require hours of waiting to implement them. I do however realize that it is a risk, although your story is a bit different as you were in general rather than elite lines.

Satellite Parking,

Sorry to hear about your experience with AA. I agree that even if AA had to pull some agents to help get the next flight off, they should have left at least one agent to process the existing line.

Go to AA.com, click on "Contact Us" on thetop right-hand side, then select "Customer Relations", to send your complaint. I'll caution you that this is just a place to start. There is no telling when or what kind of response you will get. But don't give up, you have a valid complaint. Also, the art of complaining can play a factor in how good a response you might get.

I believe this is the entire point. There are too many people who would NEVER EVER show up with the required amount of time to get through security, imposing their desire not to wait upon the rest of us. Whether elite or not, you are "stealing" when you deliberately take something that shouldn't be yours from someone else. Be it money or time (Aren't they the same?), it's theft nonetheless. We're all busy, too.

Now, of course, a connecting flight is a different story, but I would think that is a very small fraction of the infractions.

When grabbing a quote from my post, you should have also included my views on the inefficiency of US security vs. security in othjer countries, Also please note the fact that I stated that I have DE FACTO elite status on just about every US carrier (BL, UA, AA, CO, NW, HP) therefore the whole thing does not really apply to me, I also state that I do regard it as a bit risky, but is a risk I am willing to take (I would NEVER be willing to sacrifice an additional 4-5 DAYS of my life per year to this situation). My big consolation to the recent changes is that on US domestic I try to be there an hour before - no more, and to be quite frank have ALWAYS found myself checked in and through Security with at least 40 minutes to spare (Elite check-ins and elite security lines effectively making my wait identical to what it was BEFORE 9/11).

I understand your frustration with US security. Just multiply by a factor of 10 as you stand as "first" in line for 20-30 minutes while people who got to airport an hour later than you did get checked in.

I'm just paying for the security. I didn't invent it. But the time taken still comes out of my pocket.

I smell a conspiracy theory here - does anyone think it is possible that the AA agents KNEW the DFW flight was overbooked and deliberately chose to check-in everyone for the Chicago flight FIRST in order to insure that enough people missed to DFW flight without AA having to compensate anyone for the overbooking?


[This message has been edited by rtpflyer (edited 03-22-2002).]

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy, but if you'd been there with me, I think you'd agree with my conclusion that they couldn't possibly have been that smart. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Then again, I've been surprised in the past how devious counter and gate agents can be when put up to it (of course, I'm thinking here of the United Express / ACA team) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif So who knows ...

SP

Let's say I'm at the front of the check-in line, and I arrived 2 hours before my scheduled departure. The gate agent has me wait so she can check in a late-arriving pax. Annoying to me, but not a disaster. But what about the folks in line behind me who arrived an hour before their departure times and are anxious about making their flights? Should they have to stand there patiently as latecomers who just walked in the door pass in front of them? My point is that the gate agents and security officials have no way of knowing how much time each & every person in line has before their flight. When this is the case, I think the only fair method is to take people on a first come, first served basis. The airlines have a disincentive to do this, of course, since it's not usually in their interest to have pax missing flights.

I've been wondering whether a "timed entry" system might be workable. When I was in Florence last year, we wanted to go to the Uffizi Gallery and had two options: stand in the first come, first served line, or pay a small surcharge for a ticket which guaranteed us entry during a specific window that day. I know Disney theme parks use a similar system (without the surcharge) to shorten the waits for their most popular rides. I'm sure there are all kinds of reasons why something like this wouldn't actually work in the airport, but it's still an intriguing idea to me.

Last winter, I had the pleasure of flying an 8:30 a.m. flight out of Air Canada's main terminal in YYZ. At least 500 people were in the check in line. At departure minus thirty, the agents would call out a flight, and move everyone on that flight up to the front. Thus delaying everyone else, so they had to do this for every flight. It seemed like a real mess, but I suppose it worked for them.

I've given this thread some thought, and there are no easy answers. The bottom line is that, not counting time in line, it takes an average of x minutes to check in, and y minutes to clear security. I'd guess x + y isn't any more than 5 minutes. Add time in case something takes unusually long, and you have the 30-60 minutes that the airlines were suggesting pre 9/11.

Everything else is waiting in line.

But there are a certain number of gate agents, and a certain number of security portals, and it's enough to get everyone thru each day. So why the lines? My theory is that there are lines because the people don't come thru evenly spaced throughout the day. So the problem, at least at the large or hub airports, is the hub departure schedule, where most flights tend to arrive and depart within an hour of each other, to facilitate transfers. Then many fewer flights until the next busy time. Space out the flights, and the lines solve themselves. As a side effect, there's be a lot less time waiting on the tarmac while 23rd for takeoff.

The downside is connecting passengers would be a lot more likely to have 2 and 3 hour connections. But if they can get to the airport an hour later, and save a half hour on the tarmac, then they're getting much of that back. And things would eb a lot better for nonstop passengers.

So? Is this idea completely impracticle?

Not sure about "most airlines", but on AA (and AFAIK, DL, UA, etc.) if you've checked in and have a valid boarding pass with a seat assignment, it is not to be given away provided you board the plane during regular boarding time (on AA, you must be onboard the aircraft and in your assigned seat at least 10 minutes before scheduled departure time). There is no requirement to check in (or even identify yourself to a gate agent) again at the gate.

You were doomed the minute you got into the 100-person line. I've had two flights since 9/11 on airlines on which I had no status - a round-trip with checked bags. Both times, I walked into the airport, noted the line, and walked back out to the curb to use curbside check-in. This worked well for me as I made sure to have a printed itinerary with me and we able to go straight to the gate. It's a good tip to remember (using curbside, keeping printouts with you) - even if you are an elite, sometimes it's faster.

Having said that, I still hate the way that airlines have degraded service provided to non-elites to such an inhuman level. I fly AA enough to keep status, and I like their service a lot, but I always see torturous lines at the non-status counter. It's pretty brutal, but I guess the powers that be have determined that's the best way to do business.

I am sorry you had that experience. I have taken that flight many times since 9/11 and never had that problem before.

The problem as someone stated before, is since this is a small airport, some people think that you can show up 30 minutes before, and you can make your flight. Which used to be true in some cases.

The only reason why that supervisor would have done that, is that we only have one non-stop flight to Chicago a day, while there are many going to DFW

I fly mostly DL, AA and SW out of ELP, and never had that experience before.

Sorry you had a bad experience in the wonderful "Sun City"

Here's my solution, which I'm sure people will find a million problems with:

Have 3 special lines with dedicated agents on each:
- "less than 45 minutes before before departure"
- "45 minutes to 1.5 hours before departure"
- "1.5+ hours before departure"

Someone at the entry to each line checks tickets/flight times to ensure no cheaters.

People are only pulled to the front of the line in the 1.5 hours+ queue (so only people who got there at least 1.5 hours before the flight and waited in line are guaranteed to get checked in). Maybe also in the 45min to 1.5 hour queue... but then would people bother showing up more than 1.5 hours in advance? My guess is that people would, but it should be tested.

If you arrive less than 45 minutes before a flight and are not able to get through checkin- tough luck, you miss your flight. The 45 minute line should have a big sign that says "You are not guaranteed to be checked-in before your departure if you arrive with less than 1.5 hours before your flight."

ok, let the criticizing begin...

I've seen variations on this happen a bunch of times, and while I don't think they should have pulled away all 5 agents, if you look at it from the airline's perspective, it does make sense to try and get as many people on their flights as possible. I've got no problem w/ them pulling people out of line (at check-in or security) if their plane is about to leave. The vast majority of the times this makes my wait longer, as I tend to get to the airport quite early; however, once it saved my butt (pre 911). They are running a business. tls

I haven't done this, and I don't think I would, but:

I hate to say this, but this type of logjam is an argument for checking a bag. This gives the airline an incentive to get you to the gate as quickly as possible, and you know that the flight isn't going to close early if you're not there.

[This message has been edited by landspeed (edited 03-22-2002).]

I disagree.

When yo go to a Hospital Emergency Room, Is it first come- first serve? No. Of course not. Similarly an airport check in line is not a line at your local Bakery.

What happens when AA has to "reaccomodate" the Paxs who missed Chicago flight? It wrecks havoc in the system.

Where's the harm? The paxs who "cut" you made their flight as did you yours. Admittedly a small minority abuse this system, but Paxs still need to be prioritized based on departure time. Air travel is time sensitive, not merely first come first serve.

Sometimes it seems like my local bakery. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The problem of letting people check-in who have no intention of waiting on line is that you reward bad behavior and punish good behavior. The consequences of that is never good.

Airlines reward bad behavior all the time and rarely would anyone complain because most times it is to their benefit. This particular practice is sending the wrong message to those that can't get it together in enough time to get to the airport in a timely fashion. So is allowing people to carry on 3 bags though and I never hear anyone complain about that.

This has been a fascinating thread. Also, my first time to this section, interesting.

Couldn't most of us agree that at one time we are early? another time, we are the late ones? So it goes around.

Anyone who lives in a city like LA knows about traffic, and yes, it does affect making flights, and yes, I do take it into account. We all made a flight to Vegas, all coming from different directions, in my case, from work-trying to get as much out of the day as possible, and we made the flight via a miracle-flight was delayed. The LA traffic was jammed stopped. I figured we'd miss it, take the next flight.

I think we should be fair to everyone as we are usually on both sides of the coin. It is rude, for those concerned, and there are plenty!, who make it a habbit of running late and showing up, always, at the last minute. The airlines are rewarding them for that behavior and it says I am better than you. At the same time, I am grateful when they have done it for us, with the crowd in line cursing us.

I try very hard to keep on AA or the Oneworld airlines for my status-Platinum, easy check in, and perks. Lately I have had, without a choice, to fly someone else. Just grin and bear it. Always use skycap if possible. I didn't quite understand why you didn't use skycap in the first place!? Many of them now print you out a boarding pass, and you're done. Give them a big tip, and you know what!?, they've earned it.

Hope this helps and that AA works better for you next time.

------------------
Michael
AA PLT,1 MLN Miles+
HH GLD, SCI GLD, MM SIL
LE PRESIDENT ETERNEL DE CAMAIR-CAMEROUN AIRLINES :)

I think the real issue here is airport staffing by the major U.S. airlines. Prior to 9/11, the airlines, as a whole, simply demanded too much from too few agents. This problem has gotten worse since 9/11, as you have fewer employees servicing an increasing number of customers.

When I traveled to OZ last week, I was amazed at the number of check-in stations QF offered at its domestic terminals in SYD and MEL. There was hardly a wait even at the Economy Class counter, and this was during a labor action in MEL. And for the record, QF dedicated a separate check-in position for latecomers (basically they announced that all pax who have not checked in for QF XX should report to position Y).

There's a huge difference between a hospital and an airport. People who are forced to wait at the airport don't die. Most people come the airport by choice, and even if not, most people have some choice in terms of how early they arrive. I've never met anybody who decided it would be nice to visit the emergency room, or who decided to let their condition deteriorate before coming to the hospital so they wouldnt have to wait so long. (hey, if I lose a few more pints of blood I can go to the front of the line!)