Now, it's safe to fly
 

It was dangerous before, but now that my cigar cutter rests safely in the big pile of sharp things at LAX, we're all OK.

I guess it's a lack of imagination, but I'm unable to come up with a way to take over the plane with a cigar cutter. They had obviously done it before; they recognized the silhouette in the X-ray and asked me specifically to cough up the cigar cutter.

Interestingly, I was on a long trip, and the cutter had been in my bag through LGA, BOS, JFK, SFO, SEA, and SAN before LAX stopped the madness. It is good to know that someone is out there to save flyers from the cigar cutter-wielding maniacs like me.

Fly with assurance that your security is in good hands.

------------------

I think too much emphasis is placed on the goofballs at the security checkpoint. They are fussing over nail clippers. Take one or two of them and have them open and search the luggage. It's been all over the news (but long known by FTers) that any idiot terrorist can put a bomb in the luggage.

Osama is probably waiting for when he can get 19-20 terrorists together (like he did on 9-11). If he was satisfied with putting 1 bomb, it would have happened already. He wants to take down 2 or 3 dozen planes, I'm sure.

Please see the circumcision topic in Omni for how this could be a weapon.
Thank you.

Regards,
-Bouncer-
PS: Either that, or you could threaten to chop their fingertips off. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Or perhaps the cigar cutter could be taken apart and the razor used as a weapon. Who knows, quite frankly it's getting a little old hearing all the complaints about what they are taking at security. If you just double check and make absolutely sure that you don't have any cutting objects of any kind then you should do just fine. I fly at least once or twice a week, going through security three or four times a week. I have not had anything taken from me because I don't have anything that is not allowed. As for nail clippers I simply carry a pair without a file/blade on them and I get along quite nicely. Where should they draw the line? It seems to me that by the actions of a few on 9/11 it's clear that they need a fine line and nothing can cross it. I believe the rule is that no sharp objects that could be used for cutting are allowed on the plane anymore. They used to allow a blade of no more than 4" and the terrorists came on board with box cutters that had much smaller blades than that. Who would EVER have thought about anyone taking down a plane with a box cutter. It's true that they will never completely eliminate the risk of a hijacking or bomb but I, for one, am happy that they are reducing the risk significantly. I hope that they agressively continue to pursue more security so that I am safer when I fly. If you have to travel with a cigar cutter, box cutter, straight razor, etc. then check it in. Airlines still offer free bag checking. It seems like everyone is all about security as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. Well, it can't be had both ways - apparently we are living in different times. I just read an article about the hijackers and how part of what helped them succeed is that they melded into our society. Nobody even looked twice at them. It could be anyone on board, it doesn't have to be a middle eastern, single man traveling one way on a first class ticket.

[This message has been edited by AS Flyer (edited 11-28-2001).]

My personal favorite is the old lady at EWR who, after being hobbled on cane out of her wheelchair, was forced to retreat to her wheelchair in order to take off her shoes to put through the X-Ray machine.

This babe might not have been able to walk worth her cane stuck in doggy-doo, but man, I'll bet she could've driven her stilettos right through the reinforced cockpit door with that southpaw she was a-wieldin'. If only her wheelchair didn't creak so much while she was gliding it ever so stealthily, closer and closer and closer to that forbidden door...

[This message has been edited by ETOPS01 (edited 11-28-2001).]

AS Flyer, you're just like every single person they interview at the airport and put on TV. None of them complain. They don't mind being inconvenienced as long as they feel safer. You're a wonderful citizen and should be proud for playing along. Well, it's a load! The networks won't show guys like me. I do mind waiting in line. I do mind having ridiculous items confiscated. I do mind the coming security related taxes. Like the taxes aren't enough already. Those planes weren't taken over because of sharp objects. They were taken over because before 9/11 we were supposed to cooperate if we wanted to be let go unharmed. A ball point pen is more dangerous than most of the items being confiscated, especially a cigar cutter. How crazy and paranoid should we get? I don't think anybody's taking over a plane again with a paperclip or even a sword. I'm also not going to bend over and say thank you for the three hour line. All that does is give the airlines another excuse to cut more staff and make more money. I want real safety, not window dressing.

[This message has been edited by DerekAZ (edited 11-28-2001).]

Well I for one do not believe for a minute that the highjackers took their knives through security. First of all box knives were found taped under seats on other planes (looks like cleaners or food service people to me) and, secondly, why would they risk their life's work on the outside chance that they might get caught with a box knife.

What they should be looking at a lot more carefully are people who buy one-way first class tickets and hold passports from countries known to harbor terrorists. There are no secrets to El Al's success.

I do not, BTW, think that the skies are one bit safer because someone managed to confiscate my 1" safety pin, my sewing kit, my corkscrew, my tweezers or my metal comb.

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 11-28-2001).]

.

[This message has been edited by Mountain Trader (edited 11-28-2001).]

SF Joe-

Boy, are we sorry.

Sorry first about your cigar cutter. That must be a real heartbreaker, and to have it taken by some minimum wage person. Gee!

Sorry that on September 12 they didn't have an iron-clad new security system that would ferret out the risk and not inconvenience you and me.

Sorry that it may take mistakes-hey, it may take lot of them-to get this right. What a Gyp! Of course, it took almost 3 years to get from Pearl Harbor to D-Day but they didn't pay our high tax rate, did they?

I'm sure the most sorry are the widows, widowers and orphans of the Sept 11 attacks, who would give up ciagr cutters and just about anything else to try-not assure because life has no assurances-but just try, to avoid another loss of life.

Sorry to ask for a little sacrifice and to put up with a learning curve.

Sorry you were put out.

Sorry indeed.

Punki,
You don't know me but I could kiss you. Err.. Hunki might get mad though, so I'll settle for a firm handshake and a "TELL IT SISTAH!" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Regards,
-Bouncer-

Mountain you missed the point.

You cannot find me a case where anyone has ever been murdered or robbed or hijacked with a cigar clipper. More people have been killed with belts and pens. The FAA does NOT list them as weapons. He made it through MULTIPLE security checkpoints at different airports intact.

Only to get suddenly told that all of a sudden that at this airport it's apparently a weapon of mass destruction and a *REAL* threat to the safety of the passengers and the security of the aircraft. That's WHY it is a prohibited item. It is a real, credible, threat/weapon. Apprently not at his other connections though. :/

The inconsistency in what is and isn't allowed is staggering. It's a game of roulette. It leads to confusion, and ultimately a lack of confidence in the system for it's utter lack of stability and continuity.

I could do more damage in less time with the GLASS they HANDED me in First Class.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

[This message has been edited by Bouncer (edited 11-28-2001).]

Prior to 9/11 you would never have found a case of an airplane being hijacked with a box cutter. And prior to 9/11 they were perfectly legal to bring on board. Maybe they did tape them to the undersides of the seats, though we don't know that for sure. What we do know is that they didn't have to sneak them on board if they didn't want to because they were not prohibited from being brought on board. I could have walked on with a small hunting knife and not been looked at twice.

Perhaps profiling people is the way to go but so far, domestically, we don't do that. In fact, they don't do that in any European country on a domestic flight either. One doesn't need a passport to travel from Manchester, UK to Leeds, UK. Or from Lyon, France to Paris, France. I guarantee you though, that when the government starts requiring a passport for domestic travel the same people complaining now will be complaining then. A bunch of armchair athletes. Everyone has it all figured out, somehow, but those in charge. I don't agree with everything the government does, nor do I agree that all the current security measures are adequate or appropriate. I do think that given all of the circumstances I certainly couldn't do any better. And I don't think any one of you could either. If you all are experienced travelers then you all know that anything that could be considered a cutting device is prohibited, don't bring it. What do you need a corkscrew in your carry-on for anyway? Check it in.

Bouncer-

No, You missed the point.

They're trying to make our joke of a security system safer in the face of a serious national threat that has killed 3,000 to 4,000 people.

They will make mistakes. And they will take stuff like SF Joe's cigar cutter-it's stupid events like that which evidenced that we needed some new rules and new people enforcing them .

So for a while our lives will likely be a little less convenient. And maybe, just maybe, a little safer one day. If we're lucky.

Then stop BSing around with feel good initiatives like siezing nail clippers and DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!

We will NOT have security until we begin focusing on the real threats in a meaningful manner. Nail clippers and cigar clippers aren't a mistake. They're a *smokescreen* for a system that is well and truly fouled up beyond ALL recognition.

"BAN IT! IT MIGHT COULD BE A WEAPON SOMEHOW!!!" is NOT a coherent approach to anything.

CEASE focusing on grandma's in wheelchairs.
CEASE focusing on cigar clippers.
CEASE focusing on supposed random searches that are neither random nor searches.

We know what the terrorist profile is.
A erson buying first class or one way tickets at the last minute or in cash.
Non-Citizen from a country known to support terrorism or with a heavy foreign accent.
Arabic individuals.

Any one of these is a small flag, add them together and you get a larger flag. Wasting one second on some older invalid lady in a wheelchair is just plain dumb. Wasting time on others with an indepth search for needle and thread is pure foolishness.

Stop wasting our time.

And stop pretending that 9/11 could happen again. It really couldn't. And we all know that. And we all know why.

Not because of ANYTHING that's been done by the government. That's a laugh. No, it won't happen again because the passengers are NOT going to LET one or two people try and take over the aircraft. The passive response is gone. Instead they will pound the would be hijackers into goo. I know it, you know it, and everyone on the board knows it. We've all sat in the seats and figured out what we're gonna do.

I dunno about you but relying on the intrepid cigar cutter seizures isn't any part of MY plan.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

Well said Bouncer. I was going to counter AS Flyer's failed reasoning but really everything has now been said.
The following is a short list off the top of my head of things that can be used to hijack a plane more easily than cigar cutters, nail clippers or even box cutters (although a hijacking is now near impossible now that we are wise to the true purpose):

carry on luggage handles
some shoes and boots
collapsable roller doodads
pens
pencils
computers (heavy, blunt objects)
cell phones
some heavy jewlery (rings, chanins)
rolled up sky mall magazines
forks (non-plastic)
human feet
human legs
human hands
human fingers
human teeth
beverage glasses
keys
canes
seat belts (swinging that demo seatbelt extention around will make an extremely effective weapon)
pant belts (same reason)

Well said, Bouncer, SFJoe, DerekAZ, Punki and Pointman.

AS Flyer and Mountain Trader: The only thing worse than having safe, legal, everyday household implements (even my kids' rounded-end kindergarten scissors have been confiscated) stolen by the screeners (with the help of weekend warriors and idiot cops) is NOT KNOWING WHAT THE NEXT SCREENER WILL ADD TO THE LIST (since the FAA won't show us the list).

Today, Congress began the loud criticism of Mineta and Garvey for not telling of the impossibility of meeting the standards in the new law, so FF's criticism of these bureaucrats is not alone. And trust me, the criticism of these maroons is going to get louder in the coming weeks.

These same bureacrats have yet to officially publish the new regulations that allegedly authorize the siezure of legal items. Wonder why? FAA claims that they're secret because of NATIONAL SECURITY. B@**%#!t. Ban lots of safe items but don't show us the FARs that specify this garbage? I've been patient for several weeks now, but this isn't going to last forever.

I'm not a federal judge, but just wait until this lawlessness is tried on a member of the bench. Getting these unlawful regs overturned will be child's play once a judge loses his cigar cutter and his grandkids are searched like they "could be terrorists" and relieved of their kindergarten scissors. If I had more time, it sounds like an easy victory.

Even our President has taken to repeating words to the effect of "making travelers FEEL safer."

(Did Daschle, Gephardt and Clinton convince him to station National Guard troops at airports? Note to GWB: those folks don't like you, never will like you, and would do anything to help cause your unemployment in Jan 2005. Don't listen to them and don't trust them.)

And stop doing things for the sake of doing things and focus on real risks. Let those who are nervous about flying with my safe pocketknife ride Greyhound instead of causing multi-hour security checkpoint lines (which WILL cause me to reduce my high-yield traveling).

Mountain Trader: I know that "Patience is the new form of Patriotism" (N. Mineta, various speeches post-9/11). Even if it is, I'm pretty sure that Criticism of Incompetent Bureaucrats is not the new form of Treason. I'm not willing to give an inch in the hopes of "maybe, a little safer one day." I hold government bureaucrats to a higher standard than that. I only wish more people were willing to demand excellence of those who may still kill air travel "as we knew it." Still, you've got to admire a person willing to impugn my patriotism because I'm not willing to act like the mindless sheep he takes us for.

And don't get me started about the ridiculous rules applicable only to DCA (forget the secret password that changes hourly and you get diverted to Dulles, no discussion, no exceptions). Unbelievable, but true. Happened again several days ago.

The glee on the faces of the checkpoint personnel as they finally discover a sewing kit is priceless. As a very frequent business traveler, I don't check bags unless it's a long trip (too many bad experiences with a checked bag that seems to have ridden the bus and not my plane, delaying its arrival until I'm on my way home). That leaves me arguing with screeners, cops, armed soldiers and FAA overseers over items that aren't mentioned in the FAA's short Oct. 8 list. And not knowing exactly what's allowed and what's not.

We trust the pilots with an axe, but not with a razor (for the first three weeks). We don't trust the pax with pocketknives but wine bottles and laptops are ok. Huh?? As has been repeated before, prison officials can't keep weapons (or drugs, or other prohibited items) out of their facilities, yet airport screening personnel are supposed to try to search for and confiscate every conceivable sharp and pointy object. Amazing what some people will quietly endure in the name of "Patriotism." Count me out.

ASFlyer,
I am sure as frequent flyer you have been in europe and have traveled around. You are correct that a passport is not always necessary for travel on buses and trains either. What I am not sure you notice is that profiling is constant in europe. Try to walk up near an embassey in paris with any type of bag and watch the GN come running up weapons at the ready if you are arab looking. Take a train across the spanish/french border and look non white, you had better have proper paper work. It goes on and on. Be Irish in england and watch the extra security looks you get. (being Irish is not as obvious, but when a person trys to enter a museum in the UK and speaks with an accent his bags are looked at just a little bit more. I know because I have worked with companies that provide that service.)

It is not the passport that will cause problems. It is the stupidity of trying to focus on everything/everyone. I say again and again, if you allow any carryon bags you will have items that slip through. That will be more likely if you spend your time trying to focus equally on all. !!I am not saying allow knives on board etc. What I am saying is that we need to set the new standard but not freak when we have something slip through.!! A security breach is never good but a terrorist needs a solid belief that he will succeed at a specific time and place not that a metal detector failed for an hour. The terrorists would not know in advance that it was going to be broke at a specific time and be able to take advantage of that knowledge.

I will not make a claim that I could do it better, but most of what we are doing is being done not at the request of the security professionals!!! It is being decided by politicians reacting to a media inflamed public reaction and a bit of self service. It is not taking into account what is possible and it is discounting some of the actions that the professionals want, such as profiling. Instead of checking all bags insure that we flag and check the bags that considered a security risk. That even includes (women don't scream) single females traveling alone. Reason being that some previous bombers were not suicideal but conned by boyfriends. They also have a history of smuggling drugs unknowingly.

I also disagree with mountain trader. While the people who lost brothers, sisters etc maybe would agree with him, the tragedy is that the politicians are the ones doing things that are making a joke out of the system. I also am tired of saying do as the Israelis. In many ways that is correct, but what most people are missing is that the average person would never take a domestic flight inside Israel. Until just recently it was also impossible for the average European to take a flight inside Europe because of the high costs. They also did not need to, because trains and buses are very effective. So while some parts of there system is worthwile not all of it is. America is too spread out and does not have the public transport system to take over for air travel. So while it is possible to make people leaving Israel to spend 3 hours for before a flight, or drop of their bags the day before that is not possible for the US economy. If we want a high systemic unemployment and weak growth follow them. The other thing that makes a mockery is that we are not really going to get new people enforcing the rules or really even new rules. Just new uniforms and maybe less turnover. That should be the thing that makes you most upset mountain trader!

the most effective thing that could have been done and should have been done is make security the responsibility of the airports themselves with federal oversight. The airports could have used a combination of contractors and uniformed employees/police. That would have allowed a new holistic security arrangement. Even now we are still going to have a system with multiple overlaps and therefore chances for weaknesses that can be exploited.



------------------
Robert

FWAA-

Nice speech, great indignation. Now let's correct the facts.

I did not support Mineta or any government official. In fact, elsewhere I have called for those in positions of authority over saftey, intelligence and terrorist threats to be replaced. Now.

Mineta's been involved with the Transportation Committee of Congress for over 20 years and he's headed it for 8. He should've been gone on Sept 12. Just because Mineta sought patience and I did too, coming from two very different points of view, does not mean I support Mineta. You think you're right-so does Bin Laden. I won't impute that therefore you and Osama are soul mates. Get it?

My plea for patience wasn't for the cause of patriotism; rather it was more a cry for people to stop whining about the minor inconveniences they are "suffering", perhaps instead focusing on something larger than themselves. In thinking about this last night, I now see that Flyer Talk provides a valuable place for people to blow off steam. I'll try not to confuse that point again.

Last questions-How tough is it to leave questionable items like cigar cutters out of the carry-on for a while? Is that too great an imposition? I can't imagine there are that many ciagrs that need to be cut in mid-flight are there?

Mountain Trader:

I apologize for any impression that you are on their side (the current nitwits at the DoT). I've read your critical posts.

Inasmuch as we are a government of LAWS, and not a government of MEN, my rants are not just about me. I intend to scream from the rooftops until those who would govern with secret regulations see the error of their ways. Especially when their errors appear to be hobbling an important industry.

In a calmer frame of mind, I admit I can leave my sharp and pointy household items (that are legal to possess everywhere but jail, prison and sterile areas of airports and planes) at home (and I have, for over eight weeks), but you have more confidence than I when you say that this inconvenience will probably last "for a while." Because it looks to me like a permanent situation, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

And in any event, we only suspect (without much hope of proof) that boxcutters and other types of knives were used to overpower the four planes and kill all those poor souls. Since nearly every traveler for the last 40 years probably carried on several of the now prohibited items without much history of hijacking using any of them, it seems like a typical government power grab to suddenly attempt to ban each and every one of them (except for all the potentially dangerous items listed by pointman) in the name of safety. Boxcutters didn't hijack the planes, bad people did. Bad people the great big good government did nothing about until after they acted on September 11.

Again, I didn't mean to equate you with Mineta or impute his lunacy to you, and I apologize.

Pointman, I'll give up just about everything else if requested at security, but I simply refuse to give up these four items. They may get lost if checked in the hold, and then where would I be? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif


------------------
Please visit The Mileage Runner's Toolkit and Unofficial United Airlines Guide

I do not think that there is a person on this board (and probably in most of the world)who are NOT sorry for the widows, widowrs and orphans. We all wish that proper security was in place years ago.

The FAA has bee and still is an advocate for airline profits and not the flying public!

MT, you always seem to post in a sarcastic tone. I am sure that even YOU understand that 3 hour lines in CVG, and taken cigar clippers and eyeglass screw drivers is bull****. I am sure that even YOU must know that there are holes in airport security that a truck could be driven through! And I am sure that even YOU know that what happened on 9-11 was a result of a system failure that had been going on and getting worse for years.

How could congress in their infinate wisdom set time limits on things that even the shoeshine boys at the airport knew were impossible to meet? Yeah, we will make all luggage be checked in 2 months. Duh, what about the equipment needed cannot even be manufactured for years.

MT, you jumped on me because I was unhappy with security and even more unhappy with the bull**** that we, the flying public, have to put up with. You said that I should give a solution. I don't have solutions. Smarter people than me are working on that.

Let the idiots in congress and the FAA listen to the real security experts and follow through on real solutions. Not fluff to make it look like something is being done JUST TO GET NON FLYERS BACK INTO THE AIR. Well, it aint going to happen. The non flyers can read and watch the news also.

I am not starting a flame war. I think, and hope, that I am being reasonable. Cigar cutters and 1/4 inch screw drivers being confiscated by idiots that cant even speak English will not fix the broken system.

We have been told for years that cash sales of one way tickets will trigger alarms. It didnt. We were told that airlines were screaning everyone with access to planes. They were not (otherwise how could case cutters be found taped to seat bottoms?)

We are being harrased because we are visable. If the airlines want to survive, they have to wake up and take security into their own hands. Uncle Sam sure ain't gonna cut it http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

m Congress is not blaimless in this mess....they had a whole slew of experts talk to the. They just were not awake and didnt listen.

FWAAA-

You and I certainly agree that we should be wary of the power grab. I'm for giving these guys slack, but not forever. 1,200 people detained and no charges or indictments. As I said, I'll wait and see. But not forever.

While the clear bozos who are proven failures-like Mineta-should go as soon as the de-briefing is over, I really feel we have to give some of this time. I was not for these guys a year ago but that said, this is a tough job that no one trained for, and no one could. Thatt's not patriotism, it's just common sense.

Do I like waiting in long lines? No, I sure don't. Do I like having clueless idiots tell me that I have no right to request a hand search and having to insist upon that? No, I don't.

However, right now, that is the way the game is played. And that's the way most people want it, so that's the way it's going to be. They don't give a **** because they fly like twice a year, at Thanksgiving and Christmas, so they don't understand that it's a royal pain in the butt for those of us who fly more often. Nor would they care. And they tell that to their reps, who vote on legislation to make them happy.

This is what most people want. And it's what they're going to get. We're outnumbered, buddy, so we just have to adapt.

One thing I think we can ALL agree on. This was funny!!!! Thanks for the relief!
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by AS Flyer (edited 11-29-2001).]

The security process now is meaningless. At Newark I just witness 2 elderly people in wheelchairs being selected for the random gate check. They were both detained for a while (over 10 minutes), as they were asked to get out of their wheelchairs so everything could be thoroughly checked.

Come on? Is this really necessary? Hadn't they already gone through the metal detectors & x-ray? I really doubt that these 2 posed any threat to any of us boarding that plane.

BUT, they let my can of macadamia nuts through. You know the can. Metal, with the pull off metal top. Could make a really nice weapon. We carried it on in case we got hungry & realized when we opened it that the top was far more dangerous than a nail clipper or a cigar cutter.

There's a false sense security now. It's wasting everyone's time.

Mary

On the other hand, we do have airlines on our side, because frequent fliers generate the big $$$ for airlines.

And if the airline industry lobby can pry billions out of Congress mere days after the crash, while the City of New York goes begging for the money it was promised, I don't feel too bad about my chances in Congress.

The people who don't fly often can talk to their reps. I'll talk to the airlines who will then talk to their lobbyists who wll then talk to the reps.

It's not a one-sided game, ladies and gentleman.

I don't think that the solution is to look closer at people with one way first class tickets or those who hold passports from certain countries. If we just do that, then we are inviting other forms of attack. What is the likelyhood that a future terrorist will buy a one way first class seat - zero.

The problem with security is that it has to be comprehensive - half measures do not work. Right now there is no solution to screen all checked luggage for bombs. So is flying secure - NO.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 11-29-2001).]

Yes, but there are FIVE items listed! Which one are you willing to give up, MC? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Mikey1003-

My sarcasm may appear too often. However I am certain it's no problem for SF Joe who started this thread with a post that said "We're all safe now". Tit for tat.

Also, I did jump you earlier for complaining long and loud, yet offering no suggestions for change. By your admission, that's still where things stand-you're mad and you want something done. Just not sure what that thing is though.

I have changed since that earlier exchange. I now see that FT is a good outlet for venting, by you, me and others. It's no sin to be mad at all this-I think we are all mad in one way or another. We've been terribly misled and led to failure by a combination of poor perfroming politicians and our own (I think lazy) voting habits. Remember the four months spent impeaching Clinton? They could've done that in two weeks, then addressed some of these huge issues that today are unresolved and in large part unaddressed.

These issues are tough and we'll need top people to find answers. If the answers were easy, even guys like Mineta would have them.

On the other hand, the reps in Congress are anxious to look like they are doing something to make us safe.

Now, we can debate whether or not these things do increase safety til the cows come home. However, your typical joe who flies twice a year thinks they do. So he will be all for that.

Just think about the ads a political opponent could run if someone went against legislation that would make air travel "safer."

Self preservation is the most important thing for most politicians. They are not going to act in a way that will give their opponent's any ammunition.

As for the airlines, I am sure they're up there lobbying for help in decreasing the wait at airports, but I'm also sure that they're running in to resistance from reps that are afraid of being potrayed as anti-safety.

Well, our elected officials don't want to have to bail out the airlines again, either, but that will be necessary if people don't start flying again in larger numbers. I believe -- without evidence -- that people aren't staying away out of fear, but rather because they want to avoid the petty hassles associated with flying today, such as extremely long waits for ineffective screening by nitwits. If we could have consistent policies across the country, with published rules available for all to see, it would make a big difference.

People who fly constantly, as most of us do, shouldn't be at the mercy of these idiots who take advantage of their unique and unprecedented opportunity to push around the generally more successful population of air travelers. Oh, yeah, and they get to grope female passengers, too (see the New York Times of 11/21 on this subject); what a fringe benefit! At some point, people will demand that these abuses end.

Bruce

Right, but decreasing wait time doesn't mean we'd have to stop doing these silly PR-stunt security measures. We've already seen part of the airlines' collective efforts because security will now be paid for by the government, which means airlines are no longer on the hook.

Intense lobbying will probably get us more screeners and lanes, which will decrease wait time even if these silly rules remain in place. That's all I really want/need.

I can deal with the non-sensical rules. I just don't want to wait 2 hours to clear security.

Well said

Believe me, I am on your side here. I heard some moron on the news say, I don't care if it takes three hours to get through here, it's okay by me. I'm like, shut the hell up! How often do you fly?

As for the delays, it appears that our voices are being heard already. Mineta has stated that the goal is for no more than a 10 minute wait to clear security. I think that's reasonable.

I think as you start to see the more highly paid, more competent screeners in place, you will see shorter waits.

mdtony,
It might be true that this is how the game is played right now, but that is no reason for us to not comment on the stupidity of our gov's reaction. We can still be suportive of the gov while being critical of actions. Otherwise we will never get those actions corrected.

plato90s, We should not just accept stupid rules. To do so just needlessly increases costs. (many more than that 28000 will be needed to do what congress has passed and try to decrease wait time, even if the number of flyers doesn't return to previous numbers.) Also it decreases the chance to really focus in and defeat the real threats!

Also mdtony, I still don't see that we will get significantly better screeners. The majority of comments from mineta and gov unions, admit that many of the current employees will be brought over.

I also have a general question. I have still not seen a direct qoute saying that anyone found box cutters taped under seats. Can anyone out there show me a newspaper etc that says it happened on a specific flight. Otherwise it is a rumor that should be repeated. If any weapons had been found, the government would be still tearing through every person that had had any chance to place something on a plane. I have not heard a report that even claims they are still looking for someone or that anyone being held works in that kind of position.

I still don't understand why people think that it was even necessary. The knives that were used did not need to be snuck in. It was possible to walk right through the gate. If any specific terrorist had been detained because he attempted to carry a knife on board, all he would have had to do is stay quite. If security had found a box cutter and actually cared, the terrorist could have apoligized, said he did not know it was not allowed and then been allowed to proceed without it. Obviously the terrorists were smart enough to know that they should not just enter as a pack. That is actually the best explanation I have heard as to why some of the terrorists drove from Boston to then fly back through. It meant that no security personel would have a reason to get suspicious.

While the terrorists flew many of the routes and flew several times to insure they did not stand out, trying to place a person in position to put box cutters on the planes would have been a needless risk. Which is not something that Bin Ladens group is known to do. Actually it would have been an even greater risk since you would actually have needed mulitiple people at different airports etc.

So can anyone actually give me some proof behind the oft made comment.



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Robert

Here you go:

Crux is that two X-Acto knives were found loose in an overhead bin on the 14th of September. On a plane that had been originally bound for New York on the 11th of September.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/15/inv.air.canada/

Crux is that "knife-like" weapons were found on two different Delta Aircraft on September 11th after the grounding.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...5953%2C00.html

Regards,
-Bouncer-

[This message has been edited by Bouncer (edited 11-29-2001).]

Bouncer,
Thanks for the help. I missed the article on time from 9-22-01. Yet the fact is that not one of the people being detained by the FBI is accused of having been an employee in secure areas of an airport. The search alluded to in the article must have by now occured with no result. The CNN report does not state that there is a link and that the exacto knives could have been there from before etc. !!!!!!!!!but the biggest thing is that the article goes on to state that the reports of knives under the seats was completely false!!!!!!! So again I am waiting for anyone to come up with a specific case of something being placed on a plane or even a continuing suspicion that it has happened.

I will agree that this is a greater threat than anyone sneaking a knife on an airplane, as weapons snuck on board or through security by confederates was the main method in hijackings. Mainly because it is the only way to be assured of sneaking firearms and explosives on a plane.

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Robert

There are so many airplanes that if you look hard enough, you can find two examples of just about any common item laying around somewhere in the cabin.