Well said, Bouncer, SFJoe, DerekAZ, Punki and Pointman.

AS Flyer and Mountain Trader: The only thing worse than having safe, legal, everyday household implements (even my kids' rounded-end kindergarten scissors have been confiscated) stolen by the screeners (with the help of weekend warriors and idiot cops) is NOT KNOWING WHAT THE NEXT SCREENER WILL ADD TO THE LIST (since the FAA won't show us the list).

Today, Congress began the loud criticism of Mineta and Garvey for not telling of the impossibility of meeting the standards in the new law, so FF's criticism of these bureaucrats is not alone. And trust me, the criticism of these maroons is going to get louder in the coming weeks.

These same bureacrats have yet to officially publish the new regulations that allegedly authorize the siezure of legal items. Wonder why? FAA claims that they're secret because of NATIONAL SECURITY. B@**%#!t. Ban lots of safe items but don't show us the FARs that specify this garbage? I've been patient for several weeks now, but this isn't going to last forever.

I'm not a federal judge, but just wait until this lawlessness is tried on a member of the bench. Getting these unlawful regs overturned will be child's play once a judge loses his cigar cutter and his grandkids are searched like they "could be terrorists" and relieved of their kindergarten scissors. If I had more time, it sounds like an easy victory.

Even our President has taken to repeating words to the effect of "making travelers FEEL safer."

(Did Daschle, Gephardt and Clinton convince him to station National Guard troops at airports? Note to GWB: those folks don't like you, never will like you, and would do anything to help cause your unemployment in Jan 2005. Don't listen to them and don't trust them.)

And stop doing things for the sake of doing things and focus on real risks. Let those who are nervous about flying with my safe pocketknife ride Greyhound instead of causing multi-hour security checkpoint lines (which WILL cause me to reduce my high-yield traveling).

Mountain Trader: I know that "Patience is the new form of Patriotism" (N. Mineta, various speeches post-9/11). Even if it is, I'm pretty sure that Criticism of Incompetent Bureaucrats is not the new form of Treason. I'm not willing to give an inch in the hopes of "maybe, a little safer one day." I hold government bureaucrats to a higher standard than that. I only wish more people were willing to demand excellence of those who may still kill air travel "as we knew it." Still, you've got to admire a person willing to impugn my patriotism because I'm not willing to act like the mindless sheep he takes us for.

And don't get me started about the ridiculous rules applicable only to DCA (forget the secret password that changes hourly and you get diverted to Dulles, no discussion, no exceptions). Unbelievable, but true. Happened again several days ago.

The glee on the faces of the checkpoint personnel as they finally discover a sewing kit is priceless. As a very frequent business traveler, I don't check bags unless it's a long trip (too many bad experiences with a checked bag that seems to have ridden the bus and not my plane, delaying its arrival until I'm on my way home). That leaves me arguing with screeners, cops, armed soldiers and FAA overseers over items that aren't mentioned in the FAA's short Oct. 8 list. And not knowing exactly what's allowed and what's not.

We trust the pilots with an axe, but not with a razor (for the first three weeks). We don't trust the pax with pocketknives but wine bottles and laptops are ok. Huh?? As has been repeated before, prison officials can't keep weapons (or drugs, or other prohibited items) out of their facilities, yet airport screening personnel are supposed to try to search for and confiscate every conceivable sharp and pointy object. Amazing what some people will quietly endure in the name of "Patriotism." Count me out.

ASFlyer,
I am sure as frequent flyer you have been in europe and have traveled around. You are correct that a passport is not always necessary for travel on buses and trains either. What I am not sure you notice is that profiling is constant in europe. Try to walk up near an embassey in paris with any type of bag and watch the GN come running up weapons at the ready if you are arab looking. Take a train across the spanish/french border and look non white, you had better have proper paper work. It goes on and on. Be Irish in england and watch the extra security looks you get. (being Irish is not as obvious, but when a person trys to enter a museum in the UK and speaks with an accent his bags are looked at just a little bit more. I know because I have worked with companies that provide that service.)

It is not the passport that will cause problems. It is the stupidity of trying to focus on everything/everyone. I say again and again, if you allow any carryon bags you will have items that slip through. That will be more likely if you spend your time trying to focus equally on all. !!I am not saying allow knives on board etc. What I am saying is that we need to set the new standard but not freak when we have something slip through.!! A security breach is never good but a terrorist needs a solid belief that he will succeed at a specific time and place not that a metal detector failed for an hour. The terrorists would not know in advance that it was going to be broke at a specific time and be able to take advantage of that knowledge.

I will not make a claim that I could do it better, but most of what we are doing is being done not at the request of the security professionals!!! It is being decided by politicians reacting to a media inflamed public reaction and a bit of self service. It is not taking into account what is possible and it is discounting some of the actions that the professionals want, such as profiling. Instead of checking all bags insure that we flag and check the bags that considered a security risk. That even includes (women don't scream) single females traveling alone. Reason being that some previous bombers were not suicideal but conned by boyfriends. They also have a history of smuggling drugs unknowingly.

I also disagree with mountain trader. While the people who lost brothers, sisters etc maybe would agree with him, the tragedy is that the politicians are the ones doing things that are making a joke out of the system. I also am tired of saying do as the Israelis. In many ways that is correct, but what most people are missing is that the average person would never take a domestic flight inside Israel. Until just recently it was also impossible for the average European to take a flight inside Europe because of the high costs. They also did not need to, because trains and buses are very effective. So while some parts of there system is worthwile not all of it is. America is too spread out and does not have the public transport system to take over for air travel. So while it is possible to make people leaving Israel to spend 3 hours for before a flight, or drop of their bags the day before that is not possible for the US economy. If we want a high systemic unemployment and weak growth follow them. The other thing that makes a mockery is that we are not really going to get new people enforcing the rules or really even new rules. Just new uniforms and maybe less turnover. That should be the thing that makes you most upset mountain trader!

the most effective thing that could have been done and should have been done is make security the responsibility of the airports themselves with federal oversight. The airports could have used a combination of contractors and uniformed employees/police. That would have allowed a new holistic security arrangement. Even now we are still going to have a system with multiple overlaps and therefore chances for weaknesses that can be exploited.



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Robert

FWAA-

Nice speech, great indignation. Now let's correct the facts.

I did not support Mineta or any government official. In fact, elsewhere I have called for those in positions of authority over saftey, intelligence and terrorist threats to be replaced. Now.

Mineta's been involved with the Transportation Committee of Congress for over 20 years and he's headed it for 8. He should've been gone on Sept 12. Just because Mineta sought patience and I did too, coming from two very different points of view, does not mean I support Mineta. You think you're right-so does Bin Laden. I won't impute that therefore you and Osama are soul mates. Get it?

My plea for patience wasn't for the cause of patriotism; rather it was more a cry for people to stop whining about the minor inconveniences they are "suffering", perhaps instead focusing on something larger than themselves. In thinking about this last night, I now see that Flyer Talk provides a valuable place for people to blow off steam. I'll try not to confuse that point again.

Last questions-How tough is it to leave questionable items like cigar cutters out of the carry-on for a while? Is that too great an imposition? I can't imagine there are that many ciagrs that need to be cut in mid-flight are there?

Mountain Trader:

I apologize for any impression that you are on their side (the current nitwits at the DoT). I've read your critical posts.

Inasmuch as we are a government of LAWS, and not a government of MEN, my rants are not just about me. I intend to scream from the rooftops until those who would govern with secret regulations see the error of their ways. Especially when their errors appear to be hobbling an important industry.

In a calmer frame of mind, I admit I can leave my sharp and pointy household items (that are legal to possess everywhere but jail, prison and sterile areas of airports and planes) at home (and I have, for over eight weeks), but you have more confidence than I when you say that this inconvenience will probably last "for a while." Because it looks to me like a permanent situation, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

And in any event, we only suspect (without much hope of proof) that boxcutters and other types of knives were used to overpower the four planes and kill all those poor souls. Since nearly every traveler for the last 40 years probably carried on several of the now prohibited items without much history of hijacking using any of them, it seems like a typical government power grab to suddenly attempt to ban each and every one of them (except for all the potentially dangerous items listed by pointman) in the name of safety. Boxcutters didn't hijack the planes, bad people did. Bad people the great big good government did nothing about until after they acted on September 11.

Again, I didn't mean to equate you with Mineta or impute his lunacy to you, and I apologize.

Pointman, I'll give up just about everything else if requested at security, but I simply refuse to give up these four items. They may get lost if checked in the hold, and then where would I be? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif


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I do not think that there is a person on this board (and probably in most of the world)who are NOT sorry for the widows, widowrs and orphans. We all wish that proper security was in place years ago.

The FAA has bee and still is an advocate for airline profits and not the flying public!

MT, you always seem to post in a sarcastic tone. I am sure that even YOU understand that 3 hour lines in CVG, and taken cigar clippers and eyeglass screw drivers is bull****. I am sure that even YOU must know that there are holes in airport security that a truck could be driven through! And I am sure that even YOU know that what happened on 9-11 was a result of a system failure that had been going on and getting worse for years.

How could congress in their infinate wisdom set time limits on things that even the shoeshine boys at the airport knew were impossible to meet? Yeah, we will make all luggage be checked in 2 months. Duh, what about the equipment needed cannot even be manufactured for years.

MT, you jumped on me because I was unhappy with security and even more unhappy with the bull**** that we, the flying public, have to put up with. You said that I should give a solution. I don't have solutions. Smarter people than me are working on that.

Let the idiots in congress and the FAA listen to the real security experts and follow through on real solutions. Not fluff to make it look like something is being done JUST TO GET NON FLYERS BACK INTO THE AIR. Well, it aint going to happen. The non flyers can read and watch the news also.

I am not starting a flame war. I think, and hope, that I am being reasonable. Cigar cutters and 1/4 inch screw drivers being confiscated by idiots that cant even speak English will not fix the broken system.

We have been told for years that cash sales of one way tickets will trigger alarms. It didnt. We were told that airlines were screaning everyone with access to planes. They were not (otherwise how could case cutters be found taped to seat bottoms?)

We are being harrased because we are visable. If the airlines want to survive, they have to wake up and take security into their own hands. Uncle Sam sure ain't gonna cut it http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

m Congress is not blaimless in this mess....they had a whole slew of experts talk to the. They just were not awake and didnt listen.

FWAAA-

You and I certainly agree that we should be wary of the power grab. I'm for giving these guys slack, but not forever. 1,200 people detained and no charges or indictments. As I said, I'll wait and see. But not forever.

While the clear bozos who are proven failures-like Mineta-should go as soon as the de-briefing is over, I really feel we have to give some of this time. I was not for these guys a year ago but that said, this is a tough job that no one trained for, and no one could. Thatt's not patriotism, it's just common sense.

Do I like waiting in long lines? No, I sure don't. Do I like having clueless idiots tell me that I have no right to request a hand search and having to insist upon that? No, I don't.

However, right now, that is the way the game is played. And that's the way most people want it, so that's the way it's going to be. They don't give a **** because they fly like twice a year, at Thanksgiving and Christmas, so they don't understand that it's a royal pain in the butt for those of us who fly more often. Nor would they care. And they tell that to their reps, who vote on legislation to make them happy.

This is what most people want. And it's what they're going to get. We're outnumbered, buddy, so we just have to adapt.

One thing I think we can ALL agree on. This was funny!!!! Thanks for the relief!
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by AS Flyer (edited 11-29-2001).]

The security process now is meaningless. At Newark I just witness 2 elderly people in wheelchairs being selected for the random gate check. They were both detained for a while (over 10 minutes), as they were asked to get out of their wheelchairs so everything could be thoroughly checked.

Come on? Is this really necessary? Hadn't they already gone through the metal detectors & x-ray? I really doubt that these 2 posed any threat to any of us boarding that plane.

BUT, they let my can of macadamia nuts through. You know the can. Metal, with the pull off metal top. Could make a really nice weapon. We carried it on in case we got hungry & realized when we opened it that the top was far more dangerous than a nail clipper or a cigar cutter.

There's a false sense security now. It's wasting everyone's time.

Mary

On the other hand, we do have airlines on our side, because frequent fliers generate the big $$$ for airlines.

And if the airline industry lobby can pry billions out of Congress mere days after the crash, while the City of New York goes begging for the money it was promised, I don't feel too bad about my chances in Congress.

The people who don't fly often can talk to their reps. I'll talk to the airlines who will then talk to their lobbyists who wll then talk to the reps.

It's not a one-sided game, ladies and gentleman.

I don't think that the solution is to look closer at people with one way first class tickets or those who hold passports from certain countries. If we just do that, then we are inviting other forms of attack. What is the likelyhood that a future terrorist will buy a one way first class seat - zero.

The problem with security is that it has to be comprehensive - half measures do not work. Right now there is no solution to screen all checked luggage for bombs. So is flying secure - NO.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 11-29-2001).]

Yes, but there are FIVE items listed! Which one are you willing to give up, MC? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Mikey1003-

My sarcasm may appear too often. However I am certain it's no problem for SF Joe who started this thread with a post that said "We're all safe now". Tit for tat.

Also, I did jump you earlier for complaining long and loud, yet offering no suggestions for change. By your admission, that's still where things stand-you're mad and you want something done. Just not sure what that thing is though.

I have changed since that earlier exchange. I now see that FT is a good outlet for venting, by you, me and others. It's no sin to be mad at all this-I think we are all mad in one way or another. We've been terribly misled and led to failure by a combination of poor perfroming politicians and our own (I think lazy) voting habits. Remember the four months spent impeaching Clinton? They could've done that in two weeks, then addressed some of these huge issues that today are unresolved and in large part unaddressed.

These issues are tough and we'll need top people to find answers. If the answers were easy, even guys like Mineta would have them.