Perhaps.

If you want to play "what if" we can string out a series of events involving catering or luggage handling crew that would positively terrify everyone on the board.

El Al IS a unique target. The woman wasn't found by random search but rather by a standard hand search. To defeat that level of threat we would have to hand search every single person to include every piece of luggage. Ignoring the problems with time and cost, if we've done so why are we going to do so again at the gate on a non-random but not-profiled basis? That's simply not practical.

We have to do threat assessment. That means you have to scale the response. IF the searches are truly random then there may be a deterent but I'm still dubious. Granting that there is a deterrent (for the sake of argument) then the question becomes why are we not doing random searches? We're not you know. The searches are not random. You know it, I know it, and anyone who reads any major media outlet knows it.

So the whole point of random searches is now lost and a false sense of security gained. To me that's an even worse position to be in, because now you think you have a working system, when you really don't.

By example, at least two of the terrorists from 9/11 WERE picked up by a profile computer. Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Al-Midhar on AA 77. Profiling worked. But no one interviewed or searched them. Instead their bags were scanned. And then they were allowed to board.

By comparison now, we have airline pilots who get nail their clippers confiscated... but who we then hand a fire axe in the cockpit.

Doesn't make sense does it?

Regards,
-Bouncer-

hey don't take this garbage from anyone. THis is a security screening search. You are not a suspect, nor a criminal, nor an inmate. You are a free person, a CUSTOMER. You have the right to refuse any search (although you won't enter the secure area), you can observe any and all searches of your property. You can remain w/ your property at all times. And you can handle your property during the search (if you feel they might break it). And you **** well can look in any direction you please! Don't put up with this crap at all!

[This message has been edited by pointman (edited 12-06-2001).]

Well, time to jump on this particular bandwagon, I think. I have been through..lemme see..something like 14 different airport security areas in the past several months. Each one was different, nothing was standardized. Innocuous things (IMHO) were confiscated, while my haybale cutting jackknife rested in the bottom of my purse through 3 or 4 different airport security gates. (I had forgotten it was there, and only discovered it myself when switching purses between trips.) My long but round-ended nail file has been looked at several times, but not confiscated. I could stab somebody with it and do some real damage, if I needed to. But you see, it has a ROUND, not pointed, end. Always my laptop has to be removed and placed on the belt; sometimes there is no plastic tray in which to put it. At one airport security, my carry-on wheelie suitcase was messed up by digging hands, put back through the x-ray 2X and finally emptied of ALL its contents. AHA! It was my small flashlight that was the cause of the hold-up; it was not confiscated. Took a long time, tho, for me to get through security that time. And finally (altho this is not the end of my story), my Downs syndrome grandson and I were BOTH treated to double searches...once at the main checkpoint, and again at the "random" search area at the gate. This was at SFO on our way to Kona. In FC. And I am a 70-yr old PLTEXEC unassuming sweet LOL. I like the IDEA of security, but what we've mostly been experiencing is a joke. I DON'T necessarily feel safer with the way it is all done. 'Nuff said..at least for the moment.

thanks for helping to make my point. there are currently no standards in place. it truly is random. but because there are no standards in place, security personnel have absolutely no idea what to look for.

how hard would it be for the FAA to post a list of what is and what is not currently permitted on airplanes?

for example: nail clippers? yes!
ginsu set? no!

hair spray? yes!
propane tank? no!

how hard would it be to make a list of common items and publish it in every newspaper in the country. would it cover everything? no.... but would it stop a lot of this power-hungry, undertrained BS that we have going on now? of course it would....

you know, it's entirely possible that the people in charge of making things easier for travellers don't really want to do that? after all, we gave the imperial federal government all this power to "make us safe" after 9/11. do you really think they'll give it up without a fight?

Bouncer --

As for El Al being a unique target, I would say that after 9/11, they're not so unique anymore. And incidentally, the bomb in the Irish woman's bag was not found as a result of hand searching every single person's bags. It was found after SHE in particular was questioned and subsequently deemed suspicious and HER bag specifically was searched. She had actually already gotten it past x-ray. My point is, that if she were given a free pass because she looked like a pregnant middle-aged white woman, that plane might have been blown up.

But I think everbody on this board agrees with one thing -- you can have the best security policies ever, but none of that matters if the frontline security personnel are a bunch of bozos.

I've been equally surprised I haven't gotten any attention. 26 yo male, I travel alone with only a carryon containing a LOT of strange electronic equipment, and had several last-minute one-way tickets purchased in the past few months (I had to get from south america back home for an emergency).

My passport is filled with middle-eastern and third-world nations. My most frequent travelling companion is Lebanese!

After sept 11th I figured I'd be in for a body cavity search if I went near an airport, but I've flown through security every time, even check in with the e-ticket kiosks. Never gotten a second glance in the US.

Going through Europe I always have a lengthy interview with an intelligent and clearly well-trained but polite security person, and they always make it a point to go through why I have these strange things with me and go the places I go...

[This message has been edited by artboy (edited 12-07-2001).]

hrm, dupe...

[This message has been edited by artboy (edited 12-07-2001).]

robinhood, you are both right and wrong. The Irish ladies bag was only discovered after she had checked in. She was pulled though and asked additional questions because she was a security profile risk. ie. She was profiled. No she did not fit the limited profile that has been posted on this list. That is not a professionals list. the reason she failed is that she was traveling on a ticket for 2 weeks and only had a carry on bag. Then she answered that she was only bringing what her boyfriend had told her to.

Buying a ticket on short notice or flying first class, were not even really done in this case. This case was really unique in that since the hijackers knew they would not actually have effective weapons they wanted to be up front. In the vast majority of cases, hijackers have started out flying coach.

Profiling is a continually evolving intelligence job. Actually a chess game between good and bad guys. An example is the baider-mainhoff gang. After europeans started watching people flying on one way tickets or the firt half of a round trip ticket more closely, they hijacked a plane by flying as couples to a resort area, spending the week and then on the return hijack it. So no profile is full proof, but using your drug muling? hassidic jews. That works better for drugs because someone willing to knowingly commit suicide is different from someone willing to break the law. Additionally drug dealers have watched profiling develop and with money search out mules that they think will pass, but they factor as cost of doing business that a percentage of the drugs will be caught up. !!!!!!!!Again and again, I say. Terrorists will only launch an attack when they have serious belief in success. Because they have only a limited number of effective operatives in reality. So lets say that someone comes to the US and builds a friend relationship with a little old lady. He then buys her a ticket(probably breaks a profile, by either paying cash for her ticket or his identity is still tied to the ticket). Her bag is spotted as it is going through security. He is now burned and either arrested or on the run. If caught he rolls up other contacts. A rollup like this occured in manila. Placing a bomb that is strong enough to take a plane down and sophisticated enough to detonate on time is extremely hard. It requires special explosives like semtex, very good electronics and special knowledge. Even then many bombs either blow up early or don't even blow up. Just as many american bombs fail to detonate. A terrorist also has usually only one chance. When (I believe) the greeks discovered a bomb made up of what looked like 2 bottles of wine in a security check, that info quickly went out to all security agencies. It has not been tried again. So professional profiling is the only way to maximise our resources..


Finally did anyone notice that the new estimate on bomb detection equipment. $5 billion for hardware. It is also been decided that the machinery can not be emplaced in current layout of airports. So aditional costs and reconstruction plus probably more delays. All to search 100% of bags when profiling plus a limited bit of randomness would be as successful


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Robert