I would love to see constitutional scholars weigh in on this-- and of course, we will ad nauseum if this issue ever comes up in Congress.

I think there's a severe federalism problem with a national ID as the feds would be trying to occupy a field that has been 100% state-run.

As for foreigners, there should be better accountability; its unbelievable how many people overstay their Visas until caught; and then stay here for YEARS during deportation/removal proceedings.

A much more fundamental question is how IDs improve air travel security? The 9/11 hijackers had picture IDs and happily showed them when they checked in. What difference did it make?

I don't care if IDs are issued by the Feds, the States or anyone else; they do nothing by themselves to keep us safe.

Bruce

WHAT????? Don't be silly..............

Honey, they had more than id cards. They had little yellow stars. And later tattoos. And I would have had a pink triangle. And we all would have been gassed. How about you, acitrano? Would you have joined me in the chambers?

I guess by your argument, all we would have needed is a national German id card. That would have saved us?

Be serious. At least some of the posters make sense from their own perspective even if I don't agree.

I don't really know how IDs would help. Even if they made these 'national' IDs very hard to forge, someone would do it. It might not be perfect, but it might still fool a security guard, who's checking hundreds, upon hundreds, of IDs a day.

Rather than a national ID card, they can just make passports now required for domestic air travel. They should then lower the cost of passports and make turnaround faster.

I'd like air travel to be a right, but it could very easily be turned into a privilege instead.

I do have more than a few friends in the U.S. who keep their ATM and credit card transactions to a bare minimum because of this. At least you are not compelled to produce/use a credit card.

The only way to make sure passports are not counterfit would be to scan each one and cross reference it with the DOS computers.

National ID cards would not be OK with me. I have been in many countries where the mandatory use of them is used to restrict the free movement of people.

There is a reason why the head of our military is a civilian and not from the military.

I agree that a national ID card will not do any good. All that does is help to track the movements of those who are citizens. I have not heard that any of the terrorists were citizens. They were all here on VISAS.

I would assume that they all have to show some ID to fly. Just make that a passport only. Then, give the airlines a list of people that the INS or FBI or whoever want to catch. If the person checks in with an ID that is on the list, arrest them!

False ID's will always be a problem. But, any methods that check the consistancy of the data could be used. Get databases from other countries with valid names and passport numbers. Investigate inconsistancies!

If a person is coming from a country that requires a VISA, first the person has to go to our embassy in that country. First log the request. Then, the embassy needs to check if the person has problems in that country (admittedly, not a perfect system). Then, when they are really coming to the USA, have them stop by the embassy and let them know when the person is coming to the USA. This could even be done at the departure airport on flight day. If they don't come on that day, or within a few days (flight delays, etc.), they don't come at all -- VISA is invalid, go to the back of the line.

Once here, track their movements through their passport number for each flight, car rental, train ticket, etc. Maybe every 30 days or so, have them check in with a gov't office. You didn't check in? VISA revoked. You are on the arrest on sight list.

Also, the policy doesn't have to be the same for every country. We let Canadians in the country under different rules than we let Iraqi's. Same with this.

Also, track them both in and OUT of the country. Didn't leave when you were supposed to and didn't get a VISA extension? On the arrest on sight list!

Yes, it makes a little work for the airlines, but right now they should be willing to do a few computer checks to make the skies safer!

Well, its not a conspiracy theory to know history. Anyone claiming that centralizing power would lead to FEWER abuses of power has never stepped into a library.

That said, anyone who thinks that your SS#, credit cards, passports, etc are the "same" as a national ID database has never worked with databases. Its pretty much an impossible feat to get all that data corellated automatically with very much accuracy. It improves all the time, but its not convenient, cheap, easy, or reliable.

You can live a pretty anonymous life in the US if you are willing to use cash for most things.

Pointman stated "armed soliders at airports and other public places" Most states have already agreed to do this as of today. We will soon have nat guard troops posted at airports in combat gear. Why I am unsure. We have also had since the 12th combat troops posted at other public areas. Unfortunately in general it is a waste of time and training. Just as a national ID is probably a waste. Though having one card does make it easier to learn how to spot forgeries. Just ask any bar employee how hard it is to know if a state license is real or not if they don't live there.

With regard to making people from some countries constantly check in and register etc. Visit the Ukraine. Any actions we place on another country will be placed on US citizens that visit there. Also the amount of additional personel that would become federal employees and the associated costs to actually keep track of the millions that visit the US would be dramatic. Just as the cost of federalizing the security personel at all the airports will be considerable.

The real solution is to change the procedures on expelling people after their visas expire. When police ticket or come across undocumented/illegal aliens they need to be detained and then expelled.
Additionally several of the terrorists entered the country through canada or mexico without a visa. So they would not have needed to check in anyway.

There will be no simple solution to our new security situation. I am not sure exactly which countries you are referring to when talking about western europe, but France, Germany and England have been battling terrorists for decades. Many of the security controls most of you are attacking are because of that threat. The cameras in England that track movement etc are a result first and foremost of the IRA. So until we have had a decade or so of terrorism in the CONUS don't attack their policies. I hate saying it but I have a feeling we will end up acting the same way.

------------------
Robert

Simply sealing our borders is the best way to protect against terrorism without infringing upon the daily rights of citizens and leagals that live in the U.S. Our government can be more "defense" in deciding when and who to give visas to. Do we really need to give educational visas to Syrians, Iranians, and Algerians? Of course not. We don't have to give any visas to anyone if we don't want to. True, the vast majority of those people wishing to come here are probably totally legit, however our risk is too great to bear. It's not worth it. KEEP THEM OUT. Aliens should also be more closely monitored and be required to check in periodically and provide verifiable addresses. When expiration dates approach, proof of plans to leave should be demanded and then the actual departure should also be verified. Those on expired Visas should be immediately dealt with.
None of the above is unreasonable, and is in line with other civilized countries. Best of all, it does not infringe upon the rights or privacy of U.S. citizens (with the notable exception of some delay and inconviencience when crossing back over our borders.

I also don't want our freedom of movement to be restricted. We do need to stop illegals, but at the same time we do not want to shut ourselves off. That is what islamic fundamentalists want. If ordinary middle eastern citizens cannot experience what the US really is then it will be much easier to convince people of a caricuture of america and get them to hate us. Our culture is under attack and the only thing that will make Bin Laden etc happy is for all americans to stay in america and to prevent our culture, music etc from infecting the muslim youth. If we screw this one up we will end up without liberties and in a depression. We are much to integrated in the world to withdraw. The Omaha World Herald said Japan has issued a travel warning on the US and actually any movement outside of Japan.

The best solution is to successfully target all terrorists no matter who they attack. That will require a change in our attitudes. It means the irish pub's need to stop raising funds for the real IRA. Any person that attacks civilian targets needs to be proscribed and destroyed. Countries that support them need to be shown a cost disproportionate to the benefit of harboring them. It is impossible to seal our borders, and any defense is subject to weaknesses. A weapon of mass destruction attack will make the current situation seem like a mugging. Wait until people are afraid to visit the grocery store for fear of catching small pox.

The British commander during desert storm had a great comment. The solution to bombings is to punish the attackers harshly but integrate into the host country even farther. It is much easier to blow up a building of 'foriegn devils' if you know it will not harm any locals. Pulling back is not the answer no matter how nice it might seem.

------------------
Robert

But it did allow them to be traced after the incident Bruce.

Originally posted by BearX220:
Between your Social Security number and the electronic trail you leave via credit cards, anyone who wants to can "track your every move" already.

Originally posted by terenz:
I do have more than a few friends in the U.S. who keep their ATM and credit card transactions to a bare minimum because of this. At least you are not compelled to produce/use a credit card.
______________________________

While I don't care who tracks my credit card use - I am very boring and one would fall asleep getting info on me - I take very personally who may get at my medical records.

Since everyone's medical records are available in a huge database put together by and for insurance companies, I make a point to pay with cash for my most personal medical visits and those I can afford, instead of handing over what I consider some of my most personal information, in detail, to an insurance company, just to get back a hundred bucks or so.

This also has to do with diagnoses that are on a list to allow a rate hike. By giving the insurance companies the proof needed for such a rate hike, one can easily be charged more than others for insurance, the others not having made the insurance companies aware, through contributing to this database, of their similar condition.

At some point, I agree, it must stop. Look at me with my medical info. My only defense is quite feeble - using cash. Along with this, there are such stories as those about the Lo Jack, or whatever they are called, things being placed illegally, by the police, in a hidden spot, on certain unsuspecting persons' cars. These people were tracked, without their consent or knowledge, and, boy, were the police ticked off when their escapades (they called their actions just another useful tool in fighting crime) were made public knowledge and they were made to cut it out.

National ID cards? Who needs those when such subversive measures to track and monitor, those that many would never suspect and defend against, are already in place.

We who have nothing to hide would lose our freedom to move without government intervention. Just wait until you are detained because you National ID record indicates you have had suspicious activity such as 1 hour turnarounds or not taking the most direct route. This behaviour is normal to many FF's but could be considered suspicious by goverments.

How could a national ID card administered to American Citizens have prevented these terrorists deeds commited by foreign nationals? We already have the means to keep track of foreigners who enter this country. It's called passport control.

Personally, I don't relish the idea of my every move being tracked by the government as a result of lapses in the immigration and intelligence systems. I believe the U.S. to be a free country where we, as citizens, are allowed to travel freely without government intervention. (IMO)

I have no opposition to keeping track of those visiting or foreigners residing in the U.S. Nor do I appose the government tracking the activities of persons, U.S. citizens or not, who are reasonably suspected of commiting or intending to commit crimes.

I group this idea of a National ID card along with the restrictions on plastic knives and disposable razors: Extreme reactions that don't address the real problems of security.

Timothy McVeigh.

Enough said.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif