ALPA proposes explosive decompression in hijack situations
 

ALPA is asking all pilots to agree to explosive decompression of cabins in the event of future hijackings. Would cause loss of consciousness and could cause death in extremely young or old. Also insisting on heavy reinforcement of cockpit doors.

Sound like good ideas to me. Unfortunately, I think we're going to have to get used to the idea that some may be sacrificed to save many more.

What's wrong with knockout gas?

Exactly what kind of "gas" do you have in mind (other than what is shown in the movies)? Fatal gas, sure. But knock out gas? Not in reality.

i think that we should fight. the captain or first officer [ being in a very secure place and being informed that there was a serious thing going on] should announce that it was every person for himself and get the perps. i think i might try to kill them but i don't know. i would feel much better w/ my small knife in my travel vest.

do you have the thread to alpa's statement

Going forward, I think every exit row pax has to be ready to pull open that emergency exit while the plane is still in the air and every pax sitting in a front cabin aisle seat has to realize that his/her body is the last line of defense to the cockpit in the event of a hijacking. It's no longer just about extra leg room. This, of course, assumes that all pilots have passed thorough background checks and the cockpit is in secure hands.

If ALPA was serious about solving the hijacking problem, then they would deter impediments to the solution:

Case in point:

The Northwest pilots hat carried small knives and a corkscrew through security on 13 Sep (PHX). ALPA should have suspended these members. It is not the place of those pilots to test the security system, much as it is not my place (although I wish it was) to question the qualifications and abilities of their pilots.

From firsthand experience, the pilot in the PHX incident said that he didn't feel comfortable flying with such loose security.

Most hijacks are not intended for collision. Many are done to get hostage exchange for demand.

Now you are proposing an auto-destruct feature in all civilian flights? I don't think regular passengers will feel good about boarding such a flight.

Would you get on an airplane with auto-destruct function that can be activated by pilot or ATC?

MoreMiles, Explosive decompression wouldn't destroy the plane, it would just quickly lower the oxygen level in the cabin and knock everyone out. Pilots, I imagine, would have their masks on and be able to continue to fly.

Since everyone is suppsoed to have their seatbelts on during the flight, I wonder if pilots could take the aircraft on a "roller coaster" ride in the event of a hijacking. This could disable/injure the hijackers, but probably the crew as well.

[This message has been edited by skofarrell (edited 09-16-2001).]

To my knowledge, emergency exits on jets are designed so that they can't be opened in flight unless the cabin pressure is first decreased to something close to ambient outside pressure. They're "plug" type that are pressed against the plane from the inside. That's why, for instance, cabin doors swing in or up first when opening, and why the diagrams of window exits show the passengers pulling the window and placing them on the seat inside the plane.

Greg

Sorry to be off-topic, but this is wrong, and a common misconception. You are right that exits are designed to be "plugs", and it would take someone of superhuman strength to open an exit when the plane is compressed. But if you ever have to open an overwing emergency exit (that isn't on hinges), you need to throw it OUTSIDE the plane (which is not easy). If you leave it on the seat, you will force people to crawl over it to get out.

greg99 and usoftie, thank you for the correction. At the end of the day, the pilots must be able to control where the plane lands, and I am for any measure that would allow them to do that, even if it resulted in casualties in the pax cabin.

Usoftie -

Thanks - not off-topic and an important correction.

I'm sitting here picturing how to do that, and you're right - it doesn't seem easy.

For an interesting discussion of the problems with this type of door from the journal Flight Safety Australia see below:

http://www.casa.gov.au/airsafe/fsa/d...1Mar/39-40.pdf

Greg

You would be far better off having the pilots taking the plane on a roller coaster type ride--anyone standing would be tossed about.

Why not install a software patch that would lock the plane into autopilot until the pilots (using a security code) determine it safe enough to resume normal flight operations?

Tango, that is a very sensible idea, although it may cost lives of passangers, I can imagine a pilot will disengage the lock if a passanger were being threatend with a weapon.

The whole idea about what to do is put into another perspective on the news that the airforce were ordered to bring the last jet down by force, The brave passangers on that flight seemingly saved many lives by taking that decision themselves, god bless them.

This was suggested on local radio by an engineer. Although he suggested that the autopilot disable code be sent by radio frequency (that changes daily) from ATC.

Actually yes. Nitrous Oxide probably fits the bill the best. No different in flammability than Oxygen, which they already carry on board. Obviously all planes have circuation systems with filters to keep the air fresh.

So, seperate the cockpit air supply from the cabin air supply (and the flight crew still has their emergency mask). This covers the accidental dispensing of N2O affecting the flight deck. Canisters of N2O could be in the filtering network and the caps remotely opened from the cockpit. The gas is odorless which is good and bad. Good in the sense that no one in the cabin, including the hijackers, would know until it was too late and they were losing their faculties and soon consciousness. Bad in case of accidental release, but the cabin crew would figure it out pretty quick. I imagine the failsafes put in place would be fairly comprehensive to protect acciental dispensing.

In the case of UA93 the flight attendant was killed to lure the flight crew out. Here, even though the first casualty could never be stopped, you pop the canisters and wait for unconsciousness. You may lose another casualty or two but the flight crew can't give up the flight deck. The crew then put's down immediately with FBI and SWAT ready to board and take away the unconscious hijackers. Nitrous also doesn't have anywhere near the fine line from unconsciousness to death such as a anesthetic agent like Isofluorane or any others that they typically use surgically.

Obviously they would figure out all the details needed for quantities needed based on number passengers and volume of a specific type of aircraft. But this is certainly not implausible and takes away seriously drastic actions like arming the flight crew. I think the whole goal is keep the flight crew on the flight and the flight deck secure, obviously.

Just my two cents.

If they can get knives on board surely a gas mask could also get past?

Just thinking what's to stop the hijackers from boarding gas masks as a precautionary measure. I guess that would be up to the security check-in folks to ensure that those were not carried on. In any case, all of these security measures being proposed to the airplane will require lots of time to implement.

I think it is really going to be essential that the entire security apparatus works together to minimize risk at every step along the way. A lot of pundits keep saying that security will become lax again in a few months or whenever the American public gets tired of the inconveniences. I have greater faith that the memory of planes crashing into the WTC and the Pentagon will keep viligance high. I hope I am not being overly optimistic.

ScottC wrote:

They'd also have to get the oxygen cannister through.

Tango wrote:
This would cause far more deaths as well as serious spinal injuries than decompression. Decompression would simply force everyone who hadn't passed out to remain seated with drop-down oxygen masks on.

The locked autopilot that would force the plane to land at the nearest airport and lock out all other controls, is a terrific idea (hey Tango, we agree on something!) that is being discussed and presented on other threads. It would seem a cheap solution. I hope it happens.

Edited for UBB coding


[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 09-16-2001).]

FWIW, here is what the California Penal Code has to say about nitrous oxide:

381b. Any person who possesses nitrous oxide or any substance containing nitrous oxide, with the intent to breathe, inhale, or ingest for the purpose of causing a condition of intoxication, elation, euphoria, dizziness, stupefaction, or dulling of the senses or for the purpose of, in any manner, changing, distorting, or disturbing the audio, visual, or mental processes, or who knowingly and with the intent to do so is under the influence of nitrous oxide or any material containing nitrous oxide is guilty of a misdemeanor. This section shall not apply to any person who is under the influence of nitrous oxide or any material containing nitrous oxide pursuant to an administration for the purpose of medical, surgical, or dental care by a person duly licensed to administer such an agent.