Arm the pilots?
 

A simple (and serious) suggestion: Why not arm the pilots? Most of them are ex-military and know how to use weapons. They could defend the cockpit themselves. Anyone who tries to break down the door gets shot. Pretty effective deterrent. There would be no additional expense for sky marshals. The pilots are there already.

This simple change would be much more effective at stopping hijackings than any currently under consideration.

Bruce

umm.. what if you had a crazy insane pilot who happened to be a terrorist. Wouldn't it be even more dangerous then, for him to be armed.. he could take out the co-pilot and do it all himself...

A crazy, insane or terrorist-minded pilot has a reasonable shot of taking down the plane anyway, if they approach it methodically. The key is to ensure that pilots are properly screened and reviewed as well.

Armed pilots, with proper equipment and proper training, would likely prevent many more incidents than would occur from the very rare rogue pilot using these weapons in his or her own terrorist activities.

Why not arm them? After all we trust them with the controls of what has just been shown to be a very effective weapon.

If every cockpit contained a gun, then what happend the other day would not have come down the way it did (knives). You don't take a knife to a gunfight... Remember the scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark?"

There is ammunition that reduces the risk of hull penetration. Even so, if a round were to pierce the pressure hull, that's why we have oxygen masks.

I for one am going to miss having my swiss army knife with me in my travels.

Boatman

I go shooting pretty regularly with two commercial pilots (one FedEx the other is Varig or something-- I'm not sure) both of whom are ex-Army and exceptional marksman.

Also, like most pilots I've met, they are among the most stable, likable and serious-minded folks I've ever met.

I think arming pilots would be the single, most-effective deterrent imaginable.

Hmmm. Imagine terrorists take over the cabin. They get on the intercom and tell the pilot a passenger and/or FA will be murdered each minute until the pilot comes out and tosses the gun on the floor. One is killed as they speak to make their points.

What is the pilot to do then? It will not work IMHO.

This is all 20/20 hindsight now. I am in favor of some self-definese traing for the flight crew (kung fu?) including the FAs. They have had to deal with air rage, now hijackers who took control with only knives and cardboard cutters.

I also think the pilots need a monitor to see what's happening in the cabin. It can give the pilots warning and perhaps some precious minutes to do whatever he needs to do.

Part of the solution will be training the pilots to address such situations. If pilots are going to open the cockpit door anytime a passenger or crew member is threatened, nothing will stop terrorists. We are going to have learn to make sacrifices, and pilots will be trained about those sacrifices as well.

Gun in the cockpit? IMHO, it's just another reason for the terrorists to get in there.

Western pilots are not trained to suck up sacrifices like downed FA's or pax. If they were to stay ignorant an cold / calm (with bullet proof doors of course) then it would be a lot harder for the terrorists to get into the cockpit and take control of a plane. We have just seen that a loss of even a jumbo load of pax cannot be compared to the loss of lives if this jumbo was used in ramming a skyscraper. If even killing all the pax and FA's would not secure the control of a plane to the hijackers then they woud think twice about committing such a crime in the first place since they always want to secure a crazy result for themselves and playing themselves into the hands of authorities isn't certainly one of them if a plane lands safely.

Avgas,

The point is deterrence. Just having armed pilots on board greatly reduces the odds of a hijacker being successful. The smart ones will choose easier targets. (And don't tell me the guys who pulled this off weren't smart.)

If a situation gets to where bad guys are killing off cabin crew and pax, where would you rather be: in a place where the good guys can fight back with superior force (or at least more equal force) or in a place where the good guys are defenseless. I know my choice.

Better to retrofit the cockpit. Make it so the pilots and stews can't open the doors (much like 7-11, employees can't open the safe). Food would be served thru slots; a bathroom would have to be added or at least a target-hardened door with passage to the F/C bathroom.

God, I hate that it has come to this.

A pressurized aircraft is usually not the best place in which to discharge a firearm. Perhaps non-projectile weapons might be a better choice.

I think it is a crazy idea. I do not believe that weapons should be used in a civilian aircraft. They can bring the plane down or worse yet, an unauthorized individual can gain access to the pilot's weapon.

If the weapons are allowed, then the would be hijacker knows that he need not bring his gun. All he has to do is overpower the pilot(s) or someone in the crew.

Let us not be the Monday morning quarterbacks. We may be the frequent flying public but we are definetely not security experts ( unless there are security experts among us). We have to bear in mind that a policy that makes sense to us may not be practically feasible and may not be possible to implement nationally in the entire civil aviation system.

I am going to do the most logical thing that occurs to me. I am not going to complain, arrive early at the airport and follow the procedures in place. If I have any suggestions, I will pass them on to the proper authorities. I suggest that if we have sensible suggestions, we should make a list ( moderators please moderate) and pass it on the proper authorities via Flyer Talk

Safe Travels
MSP2000

For domestic flights, I agree with the concept of a hardened door and 'relief tubes' for the crew. The military alum will be familiar with these aparatus anyway....

And under NO circumstances would the door be open.

To me, this is the simplest and most effective solution.

What ever happened to Sky Marshalls??? I'm not old enough to remember when US airlines had uniformed Sky Marshalls on board domestic flights but I do fly certain foreign carriers and have seen uniformed ones on board. I particularly fly a foreign carrier that is very open about the fact that they have 3-4 undercover armed marshalls on board EVERY single plane on EVERY single flight. They haven't had a hijacking or incident in over 20 years. What's wrong with the US?

I'm sorry but banning curb side check & knives on board doesn't give me one bit of comfort. I can't be certain, but I'm realitively sure that none of these suicide hijackers used curb side check in.

While arming the pilots might be a nice idea, remember that they are facing forward and turning around for them is a rather awkward manuever. They might be able to do somethign if they were aware of something going on but not, for example, if a hijacker would come flying through the door.

Maybe ifthe 3 man, or 4 or 5 man (navigator, radio operator) cockpits are brought back, it'll be practical but not otherwise.

As for armoured doors, not practical for decompressions reasons as other have said. And what would happen if the flight crew got incapacitated? A remake of the Payne Stewart thing with a different twist.

I agree, undercover armed marshals is the best approach to preventing cockpit takeovers. On-board security agents would be a service offering far more important to me than legroom or wine selection.

How about stun guns ? The UK police force currently has these on trial. I think they can shoot up to about fifty feet.

One thing about sky marshalls is that it'll be obvious who they are. Think about where a sky marshall or two would logically sit to have the best/most compact arc of fire.

Those are tazers. That is a much better choice than something that could cause a hull breach.

I don't want anyone, including law enforcement officials, to carry a gun with ammunition on the plane.

[This message has been edited by Spiff (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Spiff (edited 09-13-2001).]

Put in the bulletproof door. Why does anyone need access to the flight deck in flight? When's the last time that both pilots were incapacitated (that's one reason why we have two), and a flight attendent came into the flight deck and successfully landed the aircraft?

Ok, someone who remembers correct me if I'm wrong. There are different kinds of Marshalls. During the 1970s a uniformed armed Marshall was placed outside the cockpit door during the entire flight. The guns they carried were specifically designed NOT to breach the hull of the plane or in any way threaten the integrity of the aircraft. In addition to that there were undercover armed Marshalls throughout the plane. (EL AL rewrote the book on it. I can't say that I've ever spotted one of them on board & on long flights its something to amuse myself with when I have nothing else to do)

So what if we are able to spot the plain clothes Marshalls? Does that make them any less effective? Public awareness of their presence makes them a deterent to hijacking. However, their function is to protect us, the passengers in case there is an incident. I don't know about anyone else but as long as they're on board, I don't care what they are wearing.

Even if there are bullets that don't breech the hull, what happens when a shot is fired in a very enclosed space where there are lots of innocent people around? Riccochets? Bullets that pass thru the terrorist or another type of criminal?

The cabin of the plane is no place for gunplay of any kind by anyone.

What if one of the pilots suffers a heart attack, and needs immediate attention from a doctor. If they install in doors that cannot be opened by pilots or FA's, then the pilot would probably end up dying in his seat... I doubt it will ever happen like that. And since there won't be such a door, having a gun in the cockpit would be just as bad. The terrorists would have more of a reason to try to get in the cockpit to get that gun...

Innocent (collateral) casualties in such circumstances will be seen as unfortunate, perhaps unavoidable, but acceptable. Just hope it doesn't happen to you or a loved one.

There are various projectiles that do should not richochet or go through the body, but will incapacitate, which is the objective.

I hate to say this, but even if a measure results in the death of everyone on the plane, in this new world we have been thrust in to, is that not better than having a hijacked plane result in thousands of other deaths?

Security in the USA has just taken on a whole new meaning.

The only thing that surprises me here, is that this whole sorry thing did not happen sooner than it did.

God Bless the United States of America!

[This message has been edited by hnechets (edited 09-13-2001).]

Pilots (well, mostly) opine:

http://www.planebusiness.com/cgi-bin...&f=26&t=000001

http://www.planebusiness.com/cgi-bin...&f=26&t=000051

http://www.planebusiness.com/cgi-bin...&f=26&t=000049

Why not arm the passengers? At least those who are trained in firearm use. I am 100% serious.




[This message has been edited by acitrano (edited 09-15-2001).]

Considering that part of a highjacker's job is to take the plane by surprise, will the pilots really have an opportunity to pull out guns while flying the planes? Also, if higher ticket prices mean sky marshalls then I am ready to pay. The airline industry's need to cut costs to meet Wall Street's expectations have resulted in ground security that poorly trained and poorly paid. Thus attracting some of the worst people who often spend more time talking than checking bags.