FF programs rated by Randy!
 

Just in case yall missed USA Today's Tuesday issue (01 JUN 1999), Randy was asked to rate the FF programs of 10 major airlines (AA, US, CO, NW, UA, HP, AS, TW, DL, and WN). The following are highlights of Randy's ratings:

Best FF program:
1. AA
2. US
3. CO

Worst FF programs:
10. WN
9. DL
8. TW

Ease of redeeming domestic awards:
WN- A+
HP- A-
AA, US, CO, NW, UA, AS, TW- B
DL- C+

Ease of redeeming international awards:
NW- B
US- B-
AA, CO, UA- C
HP, AS, DL- C-
TW- D

Do you all agree? Any opinions?

Based on the number of posts on Webflyer I would say that United is #1 (or else we fly it but hate it).

I can't judge - as basically I feel only somehow competent to compare some StarAlliance-partner-programs and Qualiflyer - and look at/in them from the international "point de vue".

Oh boy, something to scare more people away from DL ...

It's important to understand when reading the USA Today piece that we were asked to rate those programs based on criteria set by USA Today and as compared against each other. The other point to remember is that each category had the same weight, meaning that the importance of an elite-level program had the same weight as blackout dates for international travel. Just keep this in mind, since you might put different weights on things within these programs that mean more to you.

You might also want to check out the current _Consumer Reports_. They rate airlines based on their own surveys, which have their biases as do any others. Some of the discussion had to do with FF programs. A number that sticks in my mind (I don't have the article here) is that American has the highest percentage of available award seats, 10.0. I think Delta was lowest of the majors at 6.3. (Please don't flame me if I recall the numbers wrong, but please do correct them.)

The story is at http://www.usatoday.com/life/travel/...99/t0601ff.htm .

Interesting post!

Another consideration when cashing in for international awards is whether your trying for economy class or the front cabin. NWA rated well but I've found it EXTREMELY difficult to get in first/business using mileage! Yet I agree with the higher NWA rating because getting 3 free seats has been quite easy, particularly compared to domestic routes.

The CR report last month was good, particularly in its attempt to be unbiased, but they pay far too little attention to elite level benefits.

It is noteworthy that in the USAToday article, Randy rated SouthWest as the Worst FF program, but the absolute best ease of redeeming awards.... Interesting juxtaposition.

On another note, the article states, "Today, only Continental's OnePass, Northwest's WorldPerks, Alaska's Mileage Plan and US Airways' Dividend Miles lack mileage expiration dates. " I don't believe that this is correct, there are many other airlines that don't have mileage expiration dates. (although, some require that you fly at least once in 3 years to maintain this 'no-expiration'.) Is there a listing somewhere (or could someone post one) that has the information in expiration/non-expiration detail for all the different airlines?

Actually to explain Southwest Rapid Rewards ranking. I happen to think they have a great program for the market they serve. What happens when a comparison like the USA Today article comes about is that there are certain standards within these programs that Southwest falls away from. For instance, every other major program (from Aloha to Midwest Express to Alaska, etc.) has an elite level program to essentially differentiate between the better customers and those that are just today's passengers. Southwest has chosen not to do that. Also, those same programs mentioned above don't fly international routes, but have established relationships with other carriers to allow some sense of awards beyond their route system. I rmember a number of years back when American West introduced service to Hawaii only because it was an award destination demand. Southwest has chosen not to align and offer international award partners. If you were to factor out those two standards, Southwest does as well as anyone, and they do a very good job with their program. However, the comparison of programs for USA today did not allow an exemption and thus they were dunned in these categories, bringing down their whole rating. Should Southwest have to offer these types of benefits to their members? Not really, if what they have works for them and I beleive it does. But these two items are really standards in the industry and in the case of USA Today, they decided to measure across the standard. I would say that the main reason that elite level programs is a valid standard is that there is a time when awards aren't always the measure of loyalty, it's the benefits that sometimes outweight a frebbie and without an elite level program, there's not much with Southwest to fall back on, other than the realization that you bought a ticket that promises to get you from Point A to Point B.

I don't think I was asked for my opinion in the USA Today survey. I've been a member of Delta's program, whatever they've called it, since inception. I've never had a a request for an award ticket or an upgrade turned down. I think that makes for a pretty good program.

Beckles: Scare more people away from the front cabin and make more room for me!

Randy: I think you're saying that you provided data to a requester that you thought the requester wanted to hear. If you had provided USA Today with real data, they wouldn't have published the data, and your name. When you say you responded to USA Today's request, you're saying you're responding to "When was the last time you beat your wife?"

I'm dissappointed.

Philforest, I must respectfully disagree with that assessment. Randy was asked to rank the airlines and he did so according to certain criteria that are important to frequent fliers in general. If an airline does not have a presence in one of the categories, it must, and should, score zero there.

I mean, what else could Randy do? Put a score for the category anyway? THAT would be dishonest. He couldn't ignore it in compiling the rankings, either, because that would be unfair to the airlines that DID offer, say, an elite level, or free tickets to europe.

As has been mentioned before, though, I don't think any of us flies an airline because of some organization's rating of it. We go with what works for us, in our individual situations, and therefore pick the categories and options that are important to us. People who fly Southwest, for instance, are motivated by other factors that award tickets to the pacific rim, or free wine.

Thanks for listening.

[This message has been edited by hnechets (edited 06-03-99).]

Well, I'm dissapointed that you interpret that philforest. Somehow, you're missing something very important. First, if they (USA Today) knew anything about these programs, they wouldn't have asked us to do a rating. Second, by "request", I was simply saying that they asked us to do the work for them, they had no editorial direction on the ratings, but simply provided us with the categories which to compare programs against each other. These categories are actually nothing new, coming from a similar rating of programs for Conde Naste Traveler which we did several years back. Third, as for you being dissapointed, consider how brave we were to even accept the assignment, since you have to know that anyone rated below #1 becomes a mortal enemy. Do you think I'll get upgraded on the next Delta flight? Or will they know me the next time I check in at Marriott? I don't worry about those things, because if I did, we really never would have done the work for USA Today. As for your opinion in the USA Today survey, that was on purpose. The idea behind statistical research is to separate the research from emotional ties. We did not survey any particular person, but rather a combination of many factors, some being comparisons of standards, others being comparisons of numbers, like the number of blackout dates that Delta (you mention Delta, so we'll use that as a standard here) has vs. other programs. Like the reality that Delta is the only frequent flyer program in the U.S. without a Visa/MasterCard credit card partner (they are the top two card issuers in the world). Like the fact that Delta is the only major frequent flyer program that restricts their best customers (Medallion) from upgrading against "L" fares which is a very, very powerful lightning rod. Also, have you tired to upgrade your spouse with you when traveling on Delta, like you can with other major programs? Why is it that Delta is the only major carrier without a truly identifiable global alliance partnership that aggregates benefits and privileges? You know, like OneWorld, Star Alliance (I know about the Atlantic Excellance allaince). These ratings aren't just the flavor of the day, they are a composite of results over the last 3-12 months, because you must measure on past performance, not future promises. You mention Delta. I actually am a big fan of Delta, and in fact, count them among my top two favorite programs when choosing personal miles. How much do I like Delta? Well, I owned the trademark to SkyMiles at one time. When they approached me with the idea of acquiring it from me because they were thinking of renaming their 'Frequent Flyer' program, I gave it to them without a fee. Do you know how much money I could have got for that trademark? I like them, but I'm comfortable they were rated correctly in the USA Today survey as compared against other programs. I do know that I've continued to contribute my opinions on what would make them better and with some small adjustments, they are almost instantly among the leaders.

And just for the record, I'm not married, so I couldn't possible have beated my 'wife.'

Randy, I feel that Southwest DOES HAVE its concept of an elite level program and it does "differentiate between the better customers and those that are just today's passengers." As I think we are all aware, it's just that "elite" isn't in their vocabulary or lexicon!!! A rose is still a rose, by any other name, though. Southwest's prestigious top level is "The Companion Pass" and it is a very valuable credential to possess. I know, because I've been there, done that. Hats off to Herb (Kelleher, Southwest Airline's CEO) for this one!!!



www.southwest.com/rapid_rewards/comp_rules_and_regs.html

From their web site,
"...Really frequent flyers who fly 50 or more roundtrips within a 12 month period become Companion Reward Members and are eligible for a Companion Pass that lets a person of their choice fly free when traveling with the Member anytime for an entire year. The Member will automatically be notified when he/she qualifies, and will be sent a form to designate his/her travel partner. The Companion Pass has no blackout dates, and is valid for travel with any Southwest Airlines fare paid ticket or Award Ticket!..."

I wonder if "The Companion Pass" were called and advertised by Southwest Airlines as their "elite" level, would it then allow it to be included and compared with other elite level programs???????? Or would it still be said that Southwest doesn't offer an elite program to reward their most frequent flyers? Which, I feel, indeed it does. A rose is still a rose, by any other name. Just a few thoughts!

[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 06-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 06-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 06-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by MRLIMO (edited 06-03-99).]

I'm aware of the Companion Pass and that it is among my favorite awards of all time. As for designating that an Elite level program, that might be a stretch. It doesn't pass any single benefit back to the frequent flyer, other than the fact that one may take a free companion (pre-designated) along when traveling at some time. But doesn't Southwest have a popular "Friends Fly Free" program that runs quite often that allows the oridinary passenger to take a companion along for free? The qualifying is 50 roundtrips a year. That's some kind of traveling. Now who has that benefit, how many times could your significant other take advantage of that? Since the Companion must fly with the member, it limits how it might be used (fly the companion in at the end of a business metting for an extended weekend means you'd have to use a real award rather than the Companion Pass. I think it's a very clever award, but probably not comparable to the variety of benefits that other elite programs offer. If it were an Elite program, it might move it from an F to a D-. Hey, remember, I do like Southwest Rapid Rewards here....

Randy,

I hate to pick on you some more, but I'm a bit concerned about your low ranking of Delta even more and why you would have done it. I agree, the L-class and companion thing sucks, but this comment worries me:

"Why is it that Delta is the only major carrier without a truly identifiable global alliance partnership that aggregates benefits and privileges? You know, like OneWorld, Star Alliance (I know about the Atlantic Excellance allaince)."

I guess only DL, UA, and AA are "major carriers" then, because I can't think of any "truly identifiable global alliance partnership" that US, TW, or CO are in (I'll give you NW with their partnership with KLM, though that's a stretch).

The "Atlantic Excellence" Alliance, despite it's limited scope, is still better than anything you'll find at US, TW, or CO I think ...

[This message has been edited by Beckles (edited 06-03-99).]

This is one of the more interesting threads that I have read on this board. It really gets to the heart of the whole Frequent Flyer thing - 'Customer Loyalty'. Almost all the points made so far can be seen to be correct, it just depends upon which prism you are viewing it through.

It is as if we have all fell right into the clutches of the marketing people at their respective airlines and we will all do anything to defend our favorite airline/program. (I am absolutely guilty of doing this myself.) As Randy correctly points out, you really shouldn't do a rating to begin with - each person has different priorities and views on what makes something great or better than something else.

So, I congratulate the Freq. Flyer programs and the Airlines for instilling this fervor in all of us... Could you imagine being this excited about your toaster manufacturer or your Internet Service Provider?

Good points Steve...

Has anyone ever considering ranking the programs from the perspective of the smaller airport business traveler? I picked Delta because from Huntsville, AL (HSV) I can fly to DFW, ATL, or CVG on Delta to connect. No other airline here gives you a choice of a hub North, East, and West of here. Delta flights also outnumber each competition's flights by a factor of at least 2:1.

There are so many reviews and so many surveys and so many opinions that I think that rating the BEST airline/hotel/supermarket is subjective.

For some: Delta is the greatest airline in the universe. Terrific!

For others its Southwest or Virgin Atlantic.

As for me I don't have a FAVORITE Airline/hotel/credit card. I have those I use most frequently but nothing (and no one is perfect.)

Maybe Randy you said it best at the Freddies that ultimately the determination of the best program is up to the individual flyer. So an airline may be second int eh Freddies and dead last in U-S-A Today but ulimately a good friend like Phil has built up a long time business with Delta, it works for him and then that's terrific.

(Sorry if I misquoted you Randy... and if I did let me extend my apologies.)

Well, that's my five cents (and ONE MORE POST TO 3K.)


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MEOW! MEOW! MEOW!!!

My criticism was based on Randy's words in his June 2 post in which he said FF rated the programs "based on criteria set by USA Today." That's a bit different from having them simply provide "categories" on which to rate the programs. Or am I confusing the meanings of the words "criteria" and "categories." Had Randy's first post used "categories," my remarks wouldn't have been nearly as critical, and I apologize for misinterpreting his words.
As I said in an earlier post, I've never had any trouble upgrading on Delta (although I, too, hate the L fare restriction). And, although my wife is Silver Medallion in her own right this year (probably won't be next), I never had any problem upgrading her with me when she wasn't. In fact, on one trip when I hadn't bothered to try, the gate agent called us up and upgraded both of us on the spot, using one segment certificate.
Neither do I believe either Delta or Marriott is likely to discriminate against you for their not-so-hot ratings. Based on my experience with Marriott, they're more likely to thank you and try harder. Delta may well do the same thing, although I don't think their new management has quite yet come to recognize the connection between customer satisfaction and the bottom line.
It's been said several ways in several posts on this thread, but it bears repeating: Our choice of airlines and programs has little if anything to do with either subjective or objective ratings done by others. It's a very personal choice, sometimes one over which we have little or no control.

As has been said: Statistics/induction provide a general view of what most might rank based on selected criteria. Someone's personal/subjective opinion is not incongruous with statistical/inductive findings.

For those of you who want to invoke your own rating: fine. A person's own opinion is not necessarily going to invalidate Randy's findings. Giving your own opinions don't disprove Randy's findings, they only prove your own. Based on a larger sample, more data, Randy's finding are going to have more validity as a general statement than a sole person's opinion. Perhaps undertaking your own study would be the way to go.

Now, you may want to challenge Randy's criteria, but I tend to think that for the general fflyer population he has used acceptable criteria. Moreoever, Randy's comment is that he, in fact, likes Delta, despite the findings/rankings.

Functioning purely as a user, not a guru, here's how I would rank the three airlines I experience most:

#1. ALAKSA. Everything about Alaska is perfect, except it is almost impossible to get through to their partner desk for award bookings. Once you get there, they have to be the world greatest customer service employees.

#2. Northwest. Not the greatest fleet, but they do OK with what they have to offer. At least their website works for booking. Domestic pricing and routing are great, food is horrid, but come on its Minneapolis. Some of their FA's are wonderfully fun.


#3. UNITED (so far). Just started with them and have to give them a fair chance. Their PE agents are nice but don't have the full story especially when it comes to on-line booking problems. I feel they aren't really empowered to "make it happen". Too bad. Will withhold final judgment for few more trips.

I disagree with Steve's statement that FF programs are about "Customer Loyalty". The best line in the USA Today article was when Randy described how he underestimated the public's greed.

This thread prompts two thoughts:

First, the problem with how to factor various rankings is endemic to this type of survey, whether it's ranking Frequent Flyer programs, colleges, or places to live. Are crime, weather, and cost of living really equivalent? As someone once said, "You pays your money and you makes your choice."

And second, as someone else said, "There are lies, ****ed lies, and statistics."

My own views about these surveys/rankings are very similar to those expressed in http://www.FrequentFlier.com/ffc-0603.htm

Regarding: "#1 Place to live" surveys/rankings, often I feel that I would not live in the "#1 Place" even if someone paid me to.

My program of choice has done right by me on many occasions, and I will travel with them as my first choice. Rankings have nothing to do with it.

If/when the day arrives where they do not meet my expectations, I will choose another carrier. Out of loyalty, I will naturally give them the opportunity to "make it right". Once again, rankings will have nothing to do with it.

I suspect that most people are of the same view with their program of choice.

As for #1 rankings in general - the old saying, "All glory is fleeting" comes to mind. I have driven through some tiny, jerkwater towns which proudly boast, "Best place to live in Haystack County, 1986", and 2/3 of all business storefronts are boarded up.

The #1 place to live is my address. I can't believe that anybody would pick up and move based on some rating in some magazine.

Then again, I can't believe that people come to blows over Beanie Babies, so what do I know?

For comparison, coming forward from nearly two years ago!

Anything changed?

Exactly where does Delta get these mysterious customers?


[This message has been edited by mntblue (edited 04-27-2001).]

I agree that DL belongs at the bottom of the scrap heap, I left them for CO b/c of the severe deterioration of the Skymiles program, they sure didn't contact me or read my letters to them when they made that ridiculous comment.. Kudos to CO.. yes we can all improved but they have a heck of a program.. Also I'm still not sure how Starwood fared so well, I guess I will have to check them out. It just seems that all the FTers on here, complain about them.

The days where Delta spokesman Todd Clay could make such comments and speak truthfully are long gone. Delta has gutted its SkyMiles program and insensed its elite SkyMiles members. Compare all the other programs and you'll see that Delta has fallen far below where it once was and should be now, were it not for foolish, greedy, short-sighted decisions by its management.

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"Sire, it is not a revolt. It is a Revolution!"

[This message has been edited by Spiff (edited 04-28-2001).]

My preferred FF programs (taking all factors into consideration):

1. NW
2. US
3. CO
4. DL
5. UA
6. AA
7. WN
8. FL

Northwest gets *major* bonus points for allowing redemption on their web site and requiring (lately) only 19,000 miles for a domestic flight.

US Air is a quality airline. Its only downside is its limited route network.

I haven't flown Continental for some years, although I will be flying them twice in the next couple months. They used to be pretty bad, but apparently have improved. Their FF program is important because they partner with Frontier and America West, if for no other reason.

Delta is a pretty bad airline. The prefer to cut corners instead of maintaining quality service. I generally only fly them when I have no other choice.

United-- do their planes actually ever arrive?

American. Agh. Their fares are outrageous, they never seem to fly where I want to go, and I think (I could be wrong) that they don't even give FF miles on all economy tickets! I have no intention of flying them in the forseeable future.

Southwest. No partners = I don't fly them.

AirTran. I really can't imagine *any* circumstances under which I would fly AirTran. They are the worst airline, by far, that I have ever flown. I would consider flying Aeroflot; I would not consider flying AirTran. It is incredible that such an inept airline is still in business.

I am not considering seperately airlines which partner with the above airlines.

idomoneous-

To the best of my knowledge, AA gives mileage credit for all revenue fares. I've flown on every class of ticket in the alphabet with them (except, fortunately, M), and have never had a problem.

I've flown on the M fares on AA and have gottne miles. You can even get elite miles on web fares. AA matches most of the sales offered by every airline. Plus, nothing can beat More Room Throughout Coach. They're even adding More Room Throughout Business. AA eins in my book, hands down.

Doc: Thanks for pulling this out of the past!

I agree, Statistics lie, and any poll, survey, or ranking is subject to the bias of the way it is scored, phrased or created.

I personally stick with UA 'cause I'm in Denver and they dominate the market AND go most places I need to go, domestic & international.

My company is apparently about to seal a deal with Frontier so it looks like my fairly dormant CO is about to start getting more miles. I finally have a need to try to get a comp in another program for my 10 years of UA 1P.

RAD

RAD, no need to dust off the CO onepass, you can use the new "Early Returns" program from F9. You can get all the info at their website.
Doug

idomoneus-

FWIW, NW & US scored 6th and 7th respectively in this years Freddies balloting! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/004488.html

Actually, I checked PUBLISHED fares today in the NY Times. They MATCHED all fares and wer the lowest on many routes.

In addition, they are the most liberal when it comes to earning miles on different fare tix.

They also are amongst the easiest to redeem miles on. Try redeeming your miles on Continental! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

This goes to show how subjective rankings usually are. Airtran A+ is my FAVORITE FF program simply because you can't deny the math: Take three flights, pay with AMEX, and your fourth flight is free!

That amounts to a 33% discount on all paid fares. AND you can fly in the Front Cabin on your award ticket for $25.

I just wish they flew somewhere west of Texas.


Mac



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Via con Dios!