Dillusion of Elite programs
 

IMHO... now THIS is a BUZZ topic! (Explaining in a moment)

Maybe we discussed this before, but with all of these promos, the HIlton fast track to gold and Northwest's 10K bonus miles program.

But my concern is the dillusion of the elite levels of the programs. SO many golds or other higher elites fighting it out for upgrades and benefits.

Maybe what the programs should do is do two levels.

For example, let's take HIlton.

1. One gold preferred level, which will be for those HHonors members who earned gold through stays in the previous year.

2. Regular gold for those who earned through special promos.

This can be also for other programs.

Any views?

And again, this is no attack on the HHonors Fast Track. (I earned HHonors Gold through stays last year.)

Now I think a BUZZ topic is something general where you look at several issues or problems.

Like this thread.

Catman, while I agree that the comping of status in some cases (i.e. Hilton Gold) has gotten out of line, I don't believe having two distinct Gold levels is the answer. I don't see how this is workable from the customer's point of view or assists the airlines/hotels in achieving their aims (more business). To dangle a carrot like Gold status in front of guests, and then turn around and say they won't receive the same benefits as "true" Golds doesn't make for an effective marketing campaign and certainly wouldn't satisfy most people.

I am not as strongly against comping as others on these boards might be. Comping status only impacts the "true Gold" if the comped people log numerous stays and thus are able to avail themselves of the benefits. If you comp a group of say 100 people to Gold, many of them will make a few stays and some may never even stay at all. Only a small number will make a significant number of stays and these are the folks Hilton wanted to get in the first place. Its true that excessive comping will erode the benefits of others....its a real balancing act for the airlines/hotels, I guess.

Elite programs are meant to increase the perceived value of services to customers who provide large chunks of revenue, not increase frustration, which is what program dilution is doing. I do not believe that socialization and rank-expansion of these programs will increase short- and long-term earnings. If anything, we may see the opposite effect.

I can't comment much about U.S. frequent guest programs, but I can say that most of the better Asian programs are holding the line. In terms of airline elite programs, such as UA MP, IMHO they are blurring the line between their lo/no-rev pax and their top flyers beyond distinction.

I would like to see a return towards simplicity, as was the norm back there in the good old days, like last year. As in many other areas, again IMHO, the KISS principle applies here.

See similar discussions underway in the Hilton forum: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum57/HTML/001222.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum57/HTML/000962.html

I personally believe that these elite comps are just an indication that the emphasis of many frequent flyer/stay programs is shifting from rewarding loyalty to attracting new customers.

[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 02-16-2001).]

We tend to think of these elite programs as something ones earns, like Boy Scout Badges.

The airlines and hotels have always thought of these as marketing tools.

Example: On the Delta forum, a number of people noted that they tried to get Delta to comp them to a higher level when they were very close to the mileage thresholds. No luck. Delta knows these are loyal customers.

But a number of people who had sharp drops in mileage from previous elite levels were nonetheless comped (without asking) to Silver, Gold and even Platinum. Why? Delta probably feared they were going to the competition.

I concur; Hilton properties in particular seem to have difficulty in comprehending their own product and often appear unable to consistently provide their guests with perks appropriate to their respective tiers.

While agree that hotel chains and airlines use the elite levels as a marketing tool, what I don't see happening is the customer service from the hotel chains and airlines towards their elites.

It used to be that if you had elite status, especially top tier status that you were recognized as a loyal and valued customer. I don't see that happening in what I read on the boards and through my own personal experiences. It's becoming the exception instead of the rule.

[This message has been edited by toadman (edited 02-21-2001).]

I disagree with a Gold and Preferred Gold. Too confusing. If they need distictions, have more levels (some for comps) such as Tin, Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Platinum. But then it gets too hard to make much difference from one level to another AND more complex for hotel employees to know who gets what.

I think airlines, hotels, etc. do need a "tool" to get those using competitor's products to switch. But I think the best way is like AA does (or did last year): Have a challenge. e.g.: Stay 7 nights in the next 60 days and we will give your Gold.

OR (to gain frequent travelers): If you are Gold with Hotel chain X, we will make you gold in our program AFTER you stay 6 nights in the next 60 days and also give you 5,000 bonus points. But do not comp the top status level (Platinum /diamond, etc.). Airlines could do same with 10 segments in 60 days.

Although this also waters down status a little, it does not give free status to many who travel only 10 - 15 days a year, which the programs are not really shooting for anyway. And if SPG Gold switch to HH Gold and vice versa, we really don't add too much to the total numbers competing for Gold benefits.

Catman - I agree that excessive fast tracking/challenge programs dilute elite levels. I am a firm believer in revenue guidelines for these sort of programs ala AA.
Just wondering - would you support UA traeting 100 K 1k members different from 84k 1k members ? - kazman

with technology getting better, i can see the day when revenue is the factor rather than stays or miles. i flew 180,000 miles last year for about $20,000. this year i can possibly fly 240,000 miles for about $16,000 if the prices hold and i can plan ahead and get advance tickets. on the other hand, i could spend $2,000 - $3,000 for each round trip to fly in coach if i buy the day before.

obviously, i am the more desireable customer for the airline if i fly on short notice and price is not a consideration, but if i only flew 10 times a year on trans-con flights, then i would only get 50,000 miles for $25,000 rather than 240,000 miles for $15,000.

so the day will come when revenue is the determining factor if they can get away with it

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f

Catman
I agree with you about the Lost value of GOLD with HH, I too have earned my HH GOld last year. I too have signed for this year's FastTrack, however i am not in it for the Gold because I know for a fact that I will make it on my own, i am in it for the Points http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Anyhow, one thing i think is unfair is about Stays. You need 4 Stays and one stay is check-in-->Check-out. Well I can't do that, I usually stay for at least 10 days at a time, not sure what is the difference between Stay and Nights, to me they should be the same.

Anyhow, the Preferred GOld and GOld is kind of confusing why doesn't HH just do the Fast Track to Silver and give out these points??



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Al

I am a Chairmans Preffered level on USAirways and I try to stay at Marriott properties whenever possible to maximize my Marriott points (Marriott's 200,000 point award is the best).

Hilton however sent me a comp gold card, (I think the may offer them to all USAir CHPR) because they recognize that I spend a lot of nights in hotels and they need to schmooz me for my business.

The result is that I still try to stay at Merriott whenever possible but Hilton is my second choice when Marriott is unavailable or in convenient. So Marriott's program does what they want it to do, it keeps me loyal to their brand. And Hilton who recognized me as a valuable source or revenue managed to get a share of thet revenue that they would not have gotten if they hat not comped me to Gold.... and Hilton has the Diamond status to reognize their truly loyal guests.

[This message has been edited by LikeItUpFront (edited 02-16-2001).]

Lighten up, guys. These promos are not diluting the value of status because they're only for a limited time, and the recipients still have to requalify under the normal criteria. The posers will wash out soon enough.

This is far different from "because I work for Company X, I have Premier Executive status as long as I remain in their employ, even if I only fly United once a year." That's dilution.

AA-style challenge promotions aren't going to work with me. On the other hand, an envelope containing a Platinum card and (at least) 4 VIP2s could be extremely persuasive. But I have to be predisposed to consider switching. I had such an unbelievably bad experience at the Seattle Sheraton a few years ago that I walked away from all my accumulated points, I will go out of my way to never stay at another Starwood property again, and even an offer of "Preferred Guest Platinum status through 2099" isn't likely to win me back.

Yes, I am participating in a Hilton conquest promotion. No, that is not how I obtained my Gold status. However, they are getting a lot more revenue out of me as a result of various promotions, and there's no question they're getting business that otherwise would have gone to another major hotel chain. They still need to work for my loyalty, but at least they don't have to worry about me going over to Starwood any time soon.

dillusion = dilution + disillusion ?

= delude

The Northwest promo is not diluting the elite program, in that the bonus miles will not count for status. It certainly will help along the trend of mileage inflation, which in turn will mean Northwest will raise award requirements. That seems a general, and perhaps very natural trend over the life cycle of promotional programs such as ff miles. It will ultimately lead to their demise.

Hilton is obviously using their elite level to promote new membership. Yes, that will dilute it. Ini my mind it's already pretty easy to get, and they have all these gold members chasing a limited number of room upgrades. If they want to have even more, that's their business. They have to weigh the costs vs. the benefits.

EPS,

Just curios as to how many times you had stayed at Starwood properties before that horrid event occured that caused you to switch. What happens when Hilton does the same?

If you travel enough you are bound to have a bad experience sooner or later with any airline or hotel chain.

I was there for the annual meeting of a large convention that had booked every available room and all of the function space. The particular incident involved the staff's mishandling of a malfunctioning elevator (I was one of the ones trapped inside) that almost had tragic consequences.

Hotel management decided the best response was to lead us to the bar and offer us all free drinks. Wrong answer.

When you have "a bad experience sooner or later" with an airline, you probably won't be around to care.

Last month, for the PIPP, I stayed at the Long Beach Hilton. Their "Ascari" restaurant (what a horrible name ... Ascaris is an intestinal parasite) is located on the second floor, and overlooks the main lobby (which has a "high ceiling" where the second floor isn't extended to cover it). A few minutes after I finished breakfast, a full-size mirror fell from the wall of the restaurant, over where the registration desk is located. It injured some members of an airline crew, and there was broken glass everywhere. Hilton handled the incident competently and professionally. That's the difference.

At the risk of bringing this thread back on topic http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif may I suggest that we are the cause of the dilution?

Take Hilton for instance. How many of us who are doing the coded challenge (under which one is automatically made a Gold on sign-up, and gets 50K points for four stays in 60 or 90 days) actually received this invitation?

Obviously Hilton sent out the invitations to some people. I would suspect that they decided quite specifically who they wanted to extend the invitation to. I would suspect as well that if they had wanted to extend it to everyone in the world, they knew how to do so. An ad in WSJ, or USA Today comes to mind.

When you call in to register, the person at the Hilton end asks you for the promotion code, and if you know it she puts you in the promotion. She (or he) doesn't inquire as to where you got the code or whether you were ever actually invited to participate.

So, because the code was posted on FlyerTalk lots of us crashed the party. And now we're complaining that too many people are being allowed in? Can anyone say "chutzpah"?

What's the solution? I don't know. Maybe it is the United Airlines solution of targeted promotions that cannot be accepted by persons not actually invited. However, I invite the reader's attention to the threads on the United board that complain bitterly about such perceived "élitism". It would appear that to do so risks creating ill will amongst those already elite at Hilton that might outweigh the (intended) good will of the new invitees.

Maybe it is for just that reason that Hilton isn't rejecting gate-crashers. Maybe they figure that the (relative) few who become Gold using a code they weren't given won't have that much impact on the greater scheme of things. On the other hand, maybe Hilton isn't rejecting the uninvited because many/most of the habitués of this board strongly resemble the target audience for whom the promotion was originally intended - the frequent traveler. "After all," Hilton marketing might say to themselves, "What we're trying to do is to get them to stay at some of our properties and experience elite treatment in the hopes they'll shift their custom to our chain. If they do, we've gained more frequent users. If they don't come back, we haven't lost much since they're not putting additional drain on our elite resources after the promotion ends."

It's a problem. The dilution is greater than intended, but only because some of us have publicly posted an invitation that wasn't intended for everyone, and others of us are taking advantage of it. Not that I'm complaining the person who posted it shouldn't have done it (hey - I'm taking advantage of it too, even though I also am already Gold).

Personally, I'm happy it was posted, but I can recognize that the company probably did not intend it to be, and may not be happy that it was. After all, when they launched their promotion they undoubtedly carefully calculated how much "dilution" they thought they could afford, and invited accordingly. That uninvited people are showing up (thus increasing the dilutive effect) may well not make them happy either, to the extent that it adds more dilution.

Frankly, I'm afraid we sound too much like the guy who is allowed into a party to which he wasn't invited, and then says, "Now that I'm in, you really ought to close the door."

Dang Catman! I thought this thread was going to be about deluded elite programs, not the dilution of them. I am soooooo™ (R. Martel, 2000) disappointed!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Hmmm. I thought Catman had coined another clever new shortcut word

dillusion (dil oo shun) n. 1. the persistent delusion or false belief that magnificent benefits will accrue from mid-level status in highly diluted elite travel programs 2. a Hilton suite for a Gold level member.

p.s. Just for the record, Ess, while it is true (I do believe) that Rudi first used the word sooooooo on FlyerTalk in October of 1998, it is also fair to point out that his younger sister has been using that word since she was a teenager in the late.............well in some earlier decade. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

the soooooooooooo®© rights are shared family rights, so my little sister (only) participates; but as she should also know (she tends to forget sometimes), the first born son still 'comes/serves' first in our family clan/(mafia).

... and yes, since those VIP (or whatever their name is) programs even invite/comp me, they really are downgrading themselves ...

People who don't stay at hiltons very often, won't be competing with us for any upgrades, regarless of what their status is. I earned Hhonors gold last year and was very proud of it. I don't mind that others are gettting it now virtually for silver level stays. I have 250K+ points in only one year, they don't. Plus, IMHO I'm all for anything that might keep up the popularity of the program and cause hilton to keep it around, put more effort into it, expand it, etc..... The more members they have, the more I see this happening. Just a thought....

I wonder if the current economy has anything to do with decisions to comp status on a limited promotions. Generally speaking (for my industry, at least) the fastest buck is made from one's own customer base. Elites make up the hotel industry's customer base - based on past performance, they can project that elites will occupy "X" number of rooms per quarter. If room occupancy is not "on projection", one way to make up for it is to recruit someone else's customer base (elites).
If the Hilton Fast Track to Gold promotion did indeed go out to a targeted audience - elites from other loyalty programs - (and then happily make it's way to FT http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif )that may be what is happening - a reaction to the economy and needing to beef-up room occupancy.

Here in Dallas, commercial For Lease signs are popping up. There have been layoffs (XO, Lucent, etc.), Office Depot has discontinued 1200 SKU's.....there are many signs that business is not wonderful.

Just trying to "look at the problem from 24,000 feet" and see if there is a bigger picture. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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Don't wait for your ship to come in. Build one.

I guess we could say that the airlines and the hotel programs are caught between a rock and a hard place ?

It seem's they are caught between driving people away (being selective, being exclusionary) and not being out-competed ?

I think some of these tactics are very short sighted. That is, I don't think the insult to long-term, current customers is worth the chance to attract new customers.

Sometimes, this is termed 'stickiness', and true style and class is very sticky - if you feel respected and valued, then you will return !

Wouldn't that be d'illusion? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

(Good one, Punki)

Touche, Counsellor! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Maybe someday my handsome, illustrious, generous and kind (but soooooooo chauvinistic) big brother will teach me how to make accent marks on an American keyboard.

edited to add sooooooooo for Rudi's sake. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 02-17-2001).]

Hilton monitors these boards regularly, they know exactly what is going on. It is not rare for Airlines/Hotels to "invite" frequent travellers into their programs at an elite level. I for one have received VIP invites in the past and was too lazy to do anything about them. These programs often buy/barter lists with other programs but have no guarantee of success.

We on this board are not "Joe Public". I am sure that Hilton is more than aware of this issue and are quite happy that this code was disseminated here on Flyertalk.

Hilton "party crashers" can only use the Gold upgrades when they check-in. Inactive travelers simply won't be checking in. Therefore, there will be no competition for upgrades.

Active travelers are a different story. These travelers are exactly who Hilton is courting.

Airlines want MORE elites, not fewer. That's why they float all that easy plastic. Note, it's all "junior" levels, underscoring the present day reality that unless you reach top tier, you get very little.

I had a question as well about dillution of the elite level programs. I went to a couple of airline sales reps to find out more. Besides the overall "we treat all of our elite members the same", I did find out that many agents and staff have been known to look for Member Since Date. In case of any ties for upgrades on the waiting list, this factor could take into account. I know from experience Hilton looks at it and this differentiates us from the "Baby Golds".

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"Fly me to the moon and let me earn alot of miles."

As I am new to the boards and haven't developed what I percieve as the requisite number of friends to post a contrary opinion, I shall, nevertheless, speak as I find.

I can understand that some elite status members are proud of their gold,platinum, diamond, or whatever level and resent (to some extent) others attaining status through prmotions. But isn't a reality check needed?

How many gained 100K from actually flying 100k miles in a calendar year on tickets paid for out of their own bank accounts? How many million members have attained that level without bonus miles from Amex or other cards? How many stayed 75 nights at a Marriott and ACTUALLY paid for it themselves? Then, how many traveled through business and the client actually paid after all expense accounts & reciepts were submitted?

I suggest that ONLY those individuals paying full fare coach, business & first class with their own money (not one dime reimbursed by anyone else) and those who payed the rack rate at preferred hotels out of their own pocket should have anything to complain about.

I understand that constant travel for work is grueling and those passengers deserve the perks their COMPANIES or CLIENTS are paying for. However, the condesention to others using promo codes is a bit absurd.

I worked for the US government and no matter how many flights I took, 1) I had to fly coach or pay the difference in the government rate 2) the FF miles were the property of the US government & they were VERY strict about making sure they got the miles and not employees.

Now, I have EARNED elite status on a few airlines for one reason only. I like to fly & I pay the price. Sure, I will take advantage of mileage runs (doing one to ZRH this weekend) and I will accept compensation for not boarding & then use the vochers to offset the cost future travel. I'll also do the surveys & take advantage of other crumbs the airlines pass out at times. But, I get the bulk of my miles the old fashioned way, I pay for the tickets.

As for the Hilton Gold deal, I took advantage of it and I am glad someone on the board made it public. But, Hilton isn't loosing a dime. Why? Because when I and other went to the website to sign up, we also surfed for rates, packages, and the like. As a result, I am taking advantage of the Egypt 7 night special. (I did the math & it really is a great deal) I'm also booked at a domestic location 5 nights next week. So, that's 12 nights off the bat, Hilton will get from me that they otherwise would not have if I hadn't gone to the site & signed up. (I would've been shacked up a Marriott instead) Moreover, I wasn't aware of Hilton's double dipping plan until I went to the site. Now, they have one new loyal customer for that very reason.

I am well aware that an all out campaign to vanquish me from the boards may arise after some read this. Or that future comments I post may be subject to nasty responses & questions left unanswered. Perhaps not. I, however, feel there is truth in my statments and just wanted to share those thoughts.

As an aside to the references to low revenue flyers, there is a reason coach seats more than business or first. Perhaps there's no way of truly knowing the shear numbers of those flying on upgrade (either requested or comp)and not at the APEX fare. But, I wager to guess that the former outways the later by degrees.

Dear Kira,

You are not alone on this board. Some others, such as myself, have taken a contrary opinion to those who have voiced concerns over the alleged dilution of HHonors. If you would like, you may do a search under my name on either the Hilton or Marriot boards to see what I am saying, as I have been defending this position for quite some time now.

BTW, I, too, saw the Hilton Egypt promotion, and I did a short post on it. My calculations indicated that I could roughly save at least $200 if I booked the hotels separately, notwithstanding the package deal. I think that you might agree.

Anyway, welcome to the board and always remember the Teachings of the Prophets!

It seems to me that we are all a bit hypocritical about this whole comping thing...

On one hand, I jumped all over the Hilton deal and even passed along the info to several of my travelling colleages. I was already silver (which I was comped at some time in the past) and began staying at more Hilton properties (especially now that Hampton is on board). Because of this offer, I will make sure to get my 4 stays in 90 days(50K!!) Will they get extended loyalty out of me? who knows...

On the other hand, Nothing gets me more ticked off about DL than hearing about them comping folks to gold/plat. I earned my plat staus this year, after years at silver/gold, and I expect there to be an increase in my upgradability. When I don't clear for an upgrade, I wonder if any of the folks in F were comped to their plat status...but I still fly DL anyway.

So, It seems to me that we all will ..... and moan about dilution of a program where we have made elite level, and we will sneak our way into a program where we are not already elite. I rarely fly NW, but could not pass up the opportunity to grab 10K quick miles by swithching around a few car rental/hotel bonus points.... We do this because it is fun. Plain and simple. If we did not enjoy trying to beat the system, we would not be spending so much free time checking out these boards.

Doc,

Thanks for the support. The reason that the Egypt package works for me is that it does not end until 12/31 and no blackout dates. I am traveling during high season and the rate is much more expensive. Plus, it is the per person rate that is important. If I were traveling with a non-existant spouse, charge, or alone, I'd be paying the total room rate. As I am traveling with a friend (who is reponsible for her half) 7 nights at those properties for $445 is a good deal. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Free Publicity!!!!!!

Don't you all see it. With a million bucks they couldn't buy ads this good. Aimed at the frequent traveller, and the wanabees.

I'll bet that if there were actuall shareholders of these companies out there, we'd here thanks and praise. Buy some of their stocks and then see their side. Comping is good business. Some will stay some won't.

Increasing hotel stays for points?
Flying to Timbuktu and back for no reason but miles, Q miles, bonuses...etc.
(Yes I have done it and will continue to , I'm nuts too!!)

What CEO would complain.

It is good business.

People don't have loyalty. Plat, Gold... some of you have shown contempt at someone else's businees practices. If you are so willing to leave through spite, maybee you were bound to anyway and this just sped things up. Businesses need new customers.

Good business & Priceless advertizing...WOW
Actually, I'm impressed.

KiraNarise --

I did not figure into that mix high season without blackout dates! As a new Gold, you should also get an upgrade.

As to your friend, I think only 1 person is eligible for the HHonors points. Well, if it is only you congrats! However, that's a bit "Cardassian," wouldn't you say? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif