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More cell phone woes
I was on a flight SDF (Louisville, KY) to ORD a couple of days ago on a British Aerospace aircraft (the one with the high wings and the four engines). About 20 mins into the flight (during heavy turbulence) the FA made the following annoucement:
"We're getting an indication in the cockpit that there is a cell phone on in the plane. Can everyone who brought a cell phone on board please check to make sure that it is off." You should have seen these pax (full flight, about 80-90 or so) jump up to check their respective overhead bins. The lady across the aisle from me found that her phone was on and advised the FA that she was the culprit. The flight continued without incident. As I debarked, I casually mentioned the cell phone incident to the FA. She advised that the instruments in the plane were "screwed up" because of the active cell phone. She also said that the FAA is about to ban cell phones from the passenger compartment because of problems like this. OK, fine. I have visions of the pilots staring helplessly at needles spinning 360 degrees on gauges like they had just flown into the Bermuda triangle. Obviously, though, not all planes suffer from hypersensitive instrumentation like that found on this one. This is the first time I have heard such an announcement, but I myself have accidentally left my phone on during flight (never on this type of craft, however). I am aware of this thread: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/001505.html A couple of questions based on the foregoing narrative: a) Is this a real problem? If so, what are the physics behind a little cell phone disturbing the big, bad, fully redundant instrumentation of a commercial aircraft? b) I do not believe the FAA, FCC or anyone else for that matter would ban cell phones as carryon items. Does anyone on this board possess such a belief? c) If in fact it is possible for an active cell phone to affect the instrumentation of an aircraft, is the craft I was on somehow more susceptible than all others to this kind of interference? Why? If so, why is it flying? |
I was on an AA MD80 flight taxiing out for TakeOff when the Captain announced that there was a person aboard USING a mobil phone. Sure enough, I looked across the aisle in FC and there was a woman crouched down with the phone to her ear. As I was staring at her, she hastily put it away.
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My understanding from talking to many pilots and being in the phone industry is the only thing that a mobile phone causes to happen on a plane is the creation of some humming noise in the pilots head set.
If someone is on the phone, it would be constant, if the phone is merely on but not in use, it happens every so often as the phone tries to find a carrier signal. I do not believe it causes gauges and instraments to become confused or incorrect. You should never believe a FA on any matter like this, they are FAs, not pilots or engineers and generally just tell people things to shut them up. For expample, Ryan Air FA told me I could not use a lap-top on the flight, it would cause us to crash and is banned by the IAA. Well, Aer Lingus has no problems with lap-tops. Clearly, phones should be turned off. Further more, if the phone is in the hold, it may well cause the same problem, so better to have them in the cabin where they can be examined to make sure they are turned off. |
I was on a flight from MCO to ORD the other night in first class. Almost as soon as we hit the ground, two pax near me switched on their phones and placed phone calls (maybe to their limo drivers or something). The flight attendants are never going to be in the cabin during this time to "catch them in the act"...so what's a caring pax to do?
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Hit the nose......just kidding.....
I usually ignore those "important" persons, but...... - why not tell them they are endangering themselves and their fellow passengers - why not report to the FAs - file a lawsuit against them ????? |
In these cases, I suspect that an FA either saw a pax using a cell phone, or saw a flashing light in a seat pocket, etc. and advised the cockpit, and that was their "indication."
I don't believe that radio detection equipment is standard on most commercially operated aircraft. file a lawsuit against them Greg |
Yeah, I don't believe that the pilots have any way of knowing that someone is using a cell phone.
Recently there was testing done with cell phones in hospitals and the only effect on equipment was holding a cellphone right next to the equipment, and even this was detectable but did not cause any real problems. For the cellphone to be a problem it would have to be right next to the equipment involved, as the effect dimishes according to the inverse square law. Cellphones are fine on airplanes, except that the FAA says they aren't. They don't really cause any problems, this is a myth along with the "portable electronic devices" myth. |
You can simulate some of the interference yourself with the following experiment. Get a portable radio and bring it near your computer. Then, make some changes or run some program on your computer and you will hear a lot of interference on the radio. I'm not sure if that is exactly what happens with cell phones, since I am not an electronics expert, but "electronic devices" emit all kinds of signals that interfere with other "electronic devices."
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Originally posted by Mikey likes it: [b] a) Is this a real problem? If so, what are the physics behind a little cell phone disturbing the big, bad, fully redundant instrumentation of a commercial aircraft? [b] this is not a real problem according to some studies. there are conspiracy theories that GTE/etc tried to advaocate this as an issue such that you have to use their rip-off in-plane-phone. the only possible reason is that the electromagnetic wave of the cell phone somehow interfere with the wiring (e.g. the entertainment system) and it somehow (again) get magnified and interferes with the plane communication system. but in this respect cell phone effects could be compared to any other electronic equipments (CD player, computer, etc.)..i.e. noise generated from the chips. while i believe such interference might add <1 billionth of a percent to an accident. there is no harm taking extra precaution. however, what i am disturbed was the fact that people always blame passengers who talk on the phone, but ignored those phones which were left on or other elctronic equipments. if there is interference, the effects on all the above are similar. it also follows that since when u r in the sky (i.e 20 min after takeoff, or before landing), u r allowed to use your notebook/MP3player/CDplayer/etc. there is no reason not to allow cellphone to be operating -- though for most cellphone you wont receive any signal at all then. [b] b) I do not believe the FAA, FCC or anyone else for that matter would ban cell phones as carryon items. Does anyone on this board possess such a belief? [b] i don't [b] c) If in fact it is possible for an active cell phone to affect the instrumentation of an aircraft, is the craft I was on somehow more susceptible than all others to this kind of interference? Why? If so, why is it flying? [b] if what i tried to reason (not that i believe in it, i was jsut trying to find the seemingly convincing reason for GTE's friends) is true, your aurcraft is more susceptible. |
Originally posted by greg99: In these cases, I suspect that an FA either saw a pax using a cell phone, or saw a flashing light in a seat pocket, etc. and advised the cockpit, and that was their "indication."Greg i bet you r 99% right, greg |
Originally posted by JerryFF: You can simulate some of the interference yourself with the following experiment. Get a portable radio and bring it near your computer. Then, make some changes or run some program on your computer and you will hear a lot of interference on the radio. I'm not sure if that is exactly what happens with cell phones, since I am not an electronics expert, but "electronic devices" emit all kinds of signals that interfere with other "electronic devices." that is right. cell phone's effect is similar to what you have described. i once used the (fixed line) phone in a hotel room, and my cell phone ring (vibrates). i heard huge noise in my telephone while the cell phone rings. because i put my cell phone fairly close to the telephone wires. it is the general electronics which emit some noise signal. and there is no evidence for any correlation to the fact that cell phone communicate via electromagnetic wave (i.e the 900Mhz/1800Mhz/1900Mhz has nothing to do with the airplane's communication) along this line, also note that cell phones do NOT "fry" your brain. all the studies show that cell phones emits x mW of energy. they r most likely refering to the 'heat' they released in microwave, i.e. ur cell phone is warm, isn't it? any devices that consumes battery power produce heat and some of those heat are emitted with microwave/infrared. and microwave is miles away from the wave that causes cancer (i.e. the other side of the visible light spectrum) to put it simpler, exposing yourself to normal sunlight does more harm to you that exposing to the cell phone's emission. so, dont believe in the brain cancer BS, unless your cell phone uses nuclear power. |
More accurately, SOME electronic devices MAY emit signals that COULD POSSIBLY affect other electronic systems. There is still no published evidence that cell phones or most other electronic devices do affect the aircraft's electrical systems. The airlines are erring on the sides of caution, the AirPhone $cam, and out of courtesy to the cell phone industry whose cells could have multiple uses by the same phone. The real solution here is to 1)Shield the aircraft electronics, if necessary. 2)Update the cell network so that a phone cannot use more than one cell at a time. Of course, the airlines will be reluctant to spend any money and even more reluctant to give up those lucrative AirPhone revenues.
Originally posted by JerryFF: You can simulate some of the interference yourself with the following experiment. Get a portable radio and bring it near your computer. Then, make some changes or run some program on your computer and you will hear a lot of interference on the radio. I'm not sure if that is exactly what happens with cell phones, since I am not an electronics expert, but "electronic devices" emit all kinds of signals that interfere with other "electronic devices." ------------------ "Sire, it is not a revolt. It is a Revolution!" |
Electronic devices can be passive, unintentional radiators, or intentional radiators. Wireless telephones definitely fall into the latter category. Having one turned on in-flight poses a serious threat to health and safety--not so much to the aircraft and its passengers--but to people on the ground. The wireless infrastructure is not designed to cope gracefully with someone who has line of sight to a large number of cells simultaneously, nor someone moving at close to the speed of sound.
If someone whose vehicle just went off the side of the road in icy conditions tries to dial 911 before losing consciousness--and they can't call for help because your phone being on temporarily "blinded" the wireless network, your little "oops" can have dire consequences. Whether your phone is tucked in checked baggage or carried on makes no difference. It has to be off while airborne. As for unintentional radiators, there are bad ones and not so bad ones. The FCC grants Class B Certification to electronic devices whose measured emissions are low enough that they're not likely to cause interference in residential areas. I would be surprised if any of the "portable electronic devices" we customarily bring onboard don't fall in that category. |
I wonder what the difference in signals is, between a cell phone and the inflight phones you find in the seats?
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Originally posted by Mikey likes it: She also said that the FAA is about to ban cell phones from the passenger compartment because of problems like this. So that the cell phones can be left on in the baggage compartment, where they may be closer to potentially affected equipment and can't be turned off in flight? That would make alot of sense. |
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