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More cell phone woes
I was on a flight SDF (Louisville, KY) to ORD a couple of days ago on a British Aerospace aircraft (the one with the high wings and the four engines). About 20 mins into the flight (during heavy turbulence) the FA made the following annoucement:
"We're getting an indication in the cockpit that there is a cell phone on in the plane. Can everyone who brought a cell phone on board please check to make sure that it is off." You should have seen these pax (full flight, about 80-90 or so) jump up to check their respective overhead bins. The lady across the aisle from me found that her phone was on and advised the FA that she was the culprit. The flight continued without incident. As I debarked, I casually mentioned the cell phone incident to the FA. She advised that the instruments in the plane were "screwed up" because of the active cell phone. She also said that the FAA is about to ban cell phones from the passenger compartment because of problems like this. OK, fine. I have visions of the pilots staring helplessly at needles spinning 360 degrees on gauges like they had just flown into the Bermuda triangle. Obviously, though, not all planes suffer from hypersensitive instrumentation like that found on this one. This is the first time I have heard such an announcement, but I myself have accidentally left my phone on during flight (never on this type of craft, however). I am aware of this thread: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/001505.html A couple of questions based on the foregoing narrative: a) Is this a real problem? If so, what are the physics behind a little cell phone disturbing the big, bad, fully redundant instrumentation of a commercial aircraft? b) I do not believe the FAA, FCC or anyone else for that matter would ban cell phones as carryon items. Does anyone on this board possess such a belief? c) If in fact it is possible for an active cell phone to affect the instrumentation of an aircraft, is the craft I was on somehow more susceptible than all others to this kind of interference? Why? If so, why is it flying? |
I was on an AA MD80 flight taxiing out for TakeOff when the Captain announced that there was a person aboard USING a mobil phone. Sure enough, I looked across the aisle in FC and there was a woman crouched down with the phone to her ear. As I was staring at her, she hastily put it away.
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My understanding from talking to many pilots and being in the phone industry is the only thing that a mobile phone causes to happen on a plane is the creation of some humming noise in the pilots head set.
If someone is on the phone, it would be constant, if the phone is merely on but not in use, it happens every so often as the phone tries to find a carrier signal. I do not believe it causes gauges and instraments to become confused or incorrect. You should never believe a FA on any matter like this, they are FAs, not pilots or engineers and generally just tell people things to shut them up. For expample, Ryan Air FA told me I could not use a lap-top on the flight, it would cause us to crash and is banned by the IAA. Well, Aer Lingus has no problems with lap-tops. Clearly, phones should be turned off. Further more, if the phone is in the hold, it may well cause the same problem, so better to have them in the cabin where they can be examined to make sure they are turned off. |
I was on a flight from MCO to ORD the other night in first class. Almost as soon as we hit the ground, two pax near me switched on their phones and placed phone calls (maybe to their limo drivers or something). The flight attendants are never going to be in the cabin during this time to "catch them in the act"...so what's a caring pax to do?
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Hit the nose......just kidding.....
I usually ignore those "important" persons, but...... - why not tell them they are endangering themselves and their fellow passengers - why not report to the FAs - file a lawsuit against them ????? |
In these cases, I suspect that an FA either saw a pax using a cell phone, or saw a flashing light in a seat pocket, etc. and advised the cockpit, and that was their "indication."
I don't believe that radio detection equipment is standard on most commercially operated aircraft. file a lawsuit against them Greg |
Yeah, I don't believe that the pilots have any way of knowing that someone is using a cell phone.
Recently there was testing done with cell phones in hospitals and the only effect on equipment was holding a cellphone right next to the equipment, and even this was detectable but did not cause any real problems. For the cellphone to be a problem it would have to be right next to the equipment involved, as the effect dimishes according to the inverse square law. Cellphones are fine on airplanes, except that the FAA says they aren't. They don't really cause any problems, this is a myth along with the "portable electronic devices" myth. |
You can simulate some of the interference yourself with the following experiment. Get a portable radio and bring it near your computer. Then, make some changes or run some program on your computer and you will hear a lot of interference on the radio. I'm not sure if that is exactly what happens with cell phones, since I am not an electronics expert, but "electronic devices" emit all kinds of signals that interfere with other "electronic devices."
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Originally posted by Mikey likes it: [b] a) Is this a real problem? If so, what are the physics behind a little cell phone disturbing the big, bad, fully redundant instrumentation of a commercial aircraft? [b] this is not a real problem according to some studies. there are conspiracy theories that GTE/etc tried to advaocate this as an issue such that you have to use their rip-off in-plane-phone. the only possible reason is that the electromagnetic wave of the cell phone somehow interfere with the wiring (e.g. the entertainment system) and it somehow (again) get magnified and interferes with the plane communication system. but in this respect cell phone effects could be compared to any other electronic equipments (CD player, computer, etc.)..i.e. noise generated from the chips. while i believe such interference might add <1 billionth of a percent to an accident. there is no harm taking extra precaution. however, what i am disturbed was the fact that people always blame passengers who talk on the phone, but ignored those phones which were left on or other elctronic equipments. if there is interference, the effects on all the above are similar. it also follows that since when u r in the sky (i.e 20 min after takeoff, or before landing), u r allowed to use your notebook/MP3player/CDplayer/etc. there is no reason not to allow cellphone to be operating -- though for most cellphone you wont receive any signal at all then. [b] b) I do not believe the FAA, FCC or anyone else for that matter would ban cell phones as carryon items. Does anyone on this board possess such a belief? [b] i don't [b] c) If in fact it is possible for an active cell phone to affect the instrumentation of an aircraft, is the craft I was on somehow more susceptible than all others to this kind of interference? Why? If so, why is it flying? [b] if what i tried to reason (not that i believe in it, i was jsut trying to find the seemingly convincing reason for GTE's friends) is true, your aurcraft is more susceptible. |
Originally posted by greg99: In these cases, I suspect that an FA either saw a pax using a cell phone, or saw a flashing light in a seat pocket, etc. and advised the cockpit, and that was their "indication."Greg i bet you r 99% right, greg |
Originally posted by JerryFF: You can simulate some of the interference yourself with the following experiment. Get a portable radio and bring it near your computer. Then, make some changes or run some program on your computer and you will hear a lot of interference on the radio. I'm not sure if that is exactly what happens with cell phones, since I am not an electronics expert, but "electronic devices" emit all kinds of signals that interfere with other "electronic devices." that is right. cell phone's effect is similar to what you have described. i once used the (fixed line) phone in a hotel room, and my cell phone ring (vibrates). i heard huge noise in my telephone while the cell phone rings. because i put my cell phone fairly close to the telephone wires. it is the general electronics which emit some noise signal. and there is no evidence for any correlation to the fact that cell phone communicate via electromagnetic wave (i.e the 900Mhz/1800Mhz/1900Mhz has nothing to do with the airplane's communication) along this line, also note that cell phones do NOT "fry" your brain. all the studies show that cell phones emits x mW of energy. they r most likely refering to the 'heat' they released in microwave, i.e. ur cell phone is warm, isn't it? any devices that consumes battery power produce heat and some of those heat are emitted with microwave/infrared. and microwave is miles away from the wave that causes cancer (i.e. the other side of the visible light spectrum) to put it simpler, exposing yourself to normal sunlight does more harm to you that exposing to the cell phone's emission. so, dont believe in the brain cancer BS, unless your cell phone uses nuclear power. |
More accurately, SOME electronic devices MAY emit signals that COULD POSSIBLY affect other electronic systems. There is still no published evidence that cell phones or most other electronic devices do affect the aircraft's electrical systems. The airlines are erring on the sides of caution, the AirPhone $cam, and out of courtesy to the cell phone industry whose cells could have multiple uses by the same phone. The real solution here is to 1)Shield the aircraft electronics, if necessary. 2)Update the cell network so that a phone cannot use more than one cell at a time. Of course, the airlines will be reluctant to spend any money and even more reluctant to give up those lucrative AirPhone revenues.
Originally posted by JerryFF: You can simulate some of the interference yourself with the following experiment. Get a portable radio and bring it near your computer. Then, make some changes or run some program on your computer and you will hear a lot of interference on the radio. I'm not sure if that is exactly what happens with cell phones, since I am not an electronics expert, but "electronic devices" emit all kinds of signals that interfere with other "electronic devices." ------------------ "Sire, it is not a revolt. It is a Revolution!" |
Electronic devices can be passive, unintentional radiators, or intentional radiators. Wireless telephones definitely fall into the latter category. Having one turned on in-flight poses a serious threat to health and safety--not so much to the aircraft and its passengers--but to people on the ground. The wireless infrastructure is not designed to cope gracefully with someone who has line of sight to a large number of cells simultaneously, nor someone moving at close to the speed of sound.
If someone whose vehicle just went off the side of the road in icy conditions tries to dial 911 before losing consciousness--and they can't call for help because your phone being on temporarily "blinded" the wireless network, your little "oops" can have dire consequences. Whether your phone is tucked in checked baggage or carried on makes no difference. It has to be off while airborne. As for unintentional radiators, there are bad ones and not so bad ones. The FCC grants Class B Certification to electronic devices whose measured emissions are low enough that they're not likely to cause interference in residential areas. I would be surprised if any of the "portable electronic devices" we customarily bring onboard don't fall in that category. |
I wonder what the difference in signals is, between a cell phone and the inflight phones you find in the seats?
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Originally posted by Mikey likes it: She also said that the FAA is about to ban cell phones from the passenger compartment because of problems like this. So that the cell phones can be left on in the baggage compartment, where they may be closer to potentially affected equipment and can't be turned off in flight? That would make alot of sense. |
Originally posted by Mikey likes it: She also said that the FAA is about to ban cell phones from the passenger compartment because of problems like this. |
Anne: the difference is that the inflight phone system has been tested with the plane's electronics and communications gear and is known not to interfere with them. Your "brand X" cell phone in the back has not.
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It really depends on the type of (phone) equipment. Not all cell phones use the exact same technologies. Given, airlines/FAs do tend to trump the problem to a level higher than reality. However cell phone CAN/MAY cause challenges - so as a 3500 minute/month cell phone user, I say turn them off....
"until we a parked at the gate and the pilot has turned off the fasten seat belt sign" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif |
I think it very unlikely that a plane could crash because of someone using a cell phone after it has landed and while it is taxiing to the gate.
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Well, they still can't figure out if cell phones are bad for our brains...
I got interested in the nitty gritty of this subject and did some poking aorund on the web. This link leads directly to a research report on cellphones and aircraft: http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publ...ports/EMI.html |
i looked some more at that link- lots of great
research on technology an dhow it goes worng on aircraft. go to http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/Incidents/ and click on "major documents" |
There has never been a proven incident of a cellphone interfering with a navigational incident. Only a suspicion. Aircraft instruments break and malfunction just like anything else. To be safe, airlines have banned their use. The incident on the plane where the pilot was getting an indication probably meant that he suspected that one of his instruments was malfunctioning and wanted to rule out cellphones as a possible cause.
------------------ speedbird001 |
There has never been a proven incident of a cellphone interfering with a navigational incident. Only a suspicion. Aircraft instruments break and malfunction just like anything else. To be safe, airlines have banned their use. The incident on the plane where the pilot was getting an indication probably meant that he suspected that one of his instruments was malfunctioning and wanted to rule out cellphones as a possible cause.
------------------ speedbird001 |
Certainly the incident cited does not prove that the instruments indicated that there was a cell phone in use. You could make the same announcement on almost any flight on a jumbo, completely speculatively, and find someone who left their phone on. By the way, the plane avionics are already well-shielded... otherwise the pilots could hardly use the DME and the GPS and the ATC radio and the weather RADAR at the same time, could they? (By the way, RADAR is an acronym; you could look it up.)
Having said all that, the likelihood of interference caused by cell phones to aircraft systems remains neither proven nor unproven. Therefore, and on general principles, adherence to the regulations is strongly encouraged. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif OTOH, and to underline the irony committed by QuietLion above, once the plane has landed your life is not exactly in the hands of the altimiter. |
Just as a warning there does exist a general offence in English law of endangering an aircraft. Believe me, blatant and deliberate use of a mobile phone would constitute an offence and a prosecution has been successfully brought in the UK against a PAX who refused to turn off a phone when requested by the crew. Generally when on the ground and faced with a delay BA captains will give permission for MP's to be used on the ground.
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If you are interested,
Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs 602.08 Portable Electronic Devices (1) No operator of an aircraft shall permit the use of a portable electronic device on board an aircraft, where the device may impair the functioning of the aircraft's systems or equipment. (2) No person shall use a portable electronic device on board an aircraft except with the permission of the operator of the aircraft. Which means blah, blah, blah..... Very informative but long at http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/commerc...ry/ac0106e.htm Also letter to the editor http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/syssafe...glish/101e.htm Canadian regs are very similar to US but canadian ones disclose more info to public. and the debate goes on..... I never had any pilot know mine was on ??? |
This reminds me of the rumor being bandied about eight or so years ago that the FAA would ban all portable computer use on aircraft because the electronics interfered with instruments. I was a young frequent business traveller and was concerned about the possiblity of a ban at the time. Instead, rules have gotten more lax when it comes to computer use, and the same has been true of cell phones.
Although I agree that cell phones have more potential for interfering with other electronics, I have talked with several friends who are pilots, and I don't believe that they pose a safety risk from an aircraft instrumentation standpoint. In fact, it has been postulated that the cellular service providers have used scare tactics because they don't want all of the passengers to overload their cells (especially those of us who have nationwide no-roam, no-long distance on our phones). I would agree with some of the other posts that the "conspiracy" probably includes those who make exorbitant profit on in-flight calls, although I rarely see people making in-flight calls. I was a frequent flier for about five years, then got a non-travel position for a couple of years and have been travelling extensively again for a year or so, and in all that time, I have used the in-flight phone twice. And once it was just to tell my husband (boyfriend at the time) that I was calling him from a plane. ;-) Ok, I was very young then.... |
It's likely that the only kind of interference that could wreak the kind of instrument-wrecking havoc Mikey mentioned (in jest)...
OK, fine. I have visions of the pilots staring helplessly at needles spinning 360 degrees on gauges like they had just flown into the Bermuda triangle. |
I do believe that there is a strong likelihood that the use of cell-phones on the aircraft can influence the instruments (avionics).
The IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) did an article on this in 1996 (see: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/publica...9609air.html). This report just covered things like computers, games, etc, which are NOT designed to radiate electrical energy. A cell-phone, however, is a transmitter, which IS designed to radiate electrical energy. The IEEE article mentioned incidents where people sitting in a particular seat on the plane using a computer caused avionics irregularities, and when the person was asked to move to a different seat, the avionics returned to normal. This may be due to the person sitting in a seat where the cables were close by (behind the panels), and there may have been a connecter that was no shielded properly, causing the avionics equipment to receive the radiation from the computer, via the cables. When a new product, like a notebook PC is made, it is designed to have shielding to reduce radiation of radio energy. But when the user upgrades the memory, for example, or it receives a slight crack in the case, this can cause the radio energy to "leak out". The inflight phone systems differ from the cell-phone in that: the cell-phone radiates INSIDE the aircraft. the inflight phone has the antenna OUTSIDE the aircraft. (plus, the airline makes some $$$ out of the inflight phone http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) IMHO: cell-phones should be regulated like smoking on the plane: not permitted when announced by the FA. There should be a fine for people who abuse this. [This message has been edited by Irvine (edited 01-27-2001).] |
Mickey,
Please post the specific date, flight nbr and airline. I would like to research this matter further. -doug |
My original post referred to UX flight number 5533 with service from SDF to ORD on January 19. Let us know what you find out.
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Okay, maybe we should deal with reality for a minute.
There are over 15,000 flights per day in the US, which would mean over 5 million per year. With some 100 people on each plane, and if only 1% of them 'forgot' to turn off their phone, we should see planes dropping out of the sky by now. And, if there was interference, it be so very easy for the airlines or FAA to prove it. You fly a plane, turn on the phone and see what happens. Pretty easy stuff. But, they can not. The planes are flying. We are all doing fine. Let's move on. |
This is a non-issue...so is the portable electronic devices thing. Nonsense really.
But I always follow the rules on an airplane, I do what they tell me to do, I think it all works much better that way. And I am a rebel in "real life" -- but on an airplane I am a "conformist." So I never use my phone in flight. |
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