A technical TRIVIA question...?
 

Let's see how good we are as a group with technical type trivia!

Supposing a FF purchases ONE "thru fare" type ticket from EWR to LAX and return (via AA on the outbound and UA on the return).

The itinerary is as follows:

EWR-AA-ORD-AA-LAX
LAX-UA-ORD-UA-EWR

Direct connections are made in ORD in both directions - and the psgr is upgraded on all flights due to his FF status on both carriers.

Would this trip be considered as:

A. a Round Trip?
B. a Point-to-point ticket?
C. a Circle Trip?
D. a Round Trip ticket which uses two one way
fares type ticket?
E. a "bonanza for the frequent flyer" type RT tkt?

In making a choice, PLEASE STATE WHY you chose this answer.

Correct answer will be posted later, after the "buffs" have had time to play with it.




[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-10-2001).]

You think that's difficult....

A train starts in Boston heading west at 60 mph; a second train heads east from LA at 85 miles per hour.....


Sorry,
Dan

So what's your answer, Dan?

[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-07-2001).]

It must be "D"..2 RT tickets with upgrades! I am leaving for India and Nepal Thursday...intinerary on the way to you for your inspection...notice my 23.5 stopover in BKK! The Nepal leg of trip is train from Mumbia to Dehli and flight to KAT!

------------------
MRKEY

Well, it's certainly a round-trip; the use of two carriers doesn't change that.

It's not two one-way fares, since it is stated that there is a thru fare. The combinability rule for the fare, which I think is usually fare rule #26, would have to read "DIFF-DIFF-DIFF" for both fares.

[This message has been edited by RichG (edited 01-07-2001).]

Sometimes called "proud ignoramus" by friends who know me well, my guess\analysis is:

(A) It is a roundtrip ticket since you
mention "return", thus yes. You start at EWR, connect (not stopover since its a "thrufare) thru ORD, then stay at LAX, then return. Two different carriers is irrelevant.
(B) Is it a "point-to-point"? My guess is no because ORD appears to be a "connection"
between EWR and LAX, and not a stopover, since this a "thrufare".
(c) Is it a "circle trip", I'd say no again since ORD is not a stopover.
(D)Is it a RT ticket which uses 2 one way fare type ticket? This one I don't feel comfortable about guessing but I'll guess no since from experience when hearing reservations mumble aloud that they have to match "fare-classes" on all segs when using different carriers for one RT. If this wasn't a "roundtrip", then it could be two one-ways and priced as such.

(e) bonanza for frequent flyers- depends if and how man FF points you got on each carrier. At least you got upgraded.

(f) better hurry and post the answer otherwise I'm liable to change my response every day

[This message has been edited by crankyusi (edited 01-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by crankyusi (edited 01-10-2001).]

It is a round trip.

Generally speaking, only an endorsable fare (i.e. Full Y) would work, since most dicount fares are limited to the carrier publishing the tariff.

However, it the original carrier is unable to carry the passenger, they are required to get the person to the destination, even if that means another carrier in another class of service.

So, an AA EXP could fly outbound, upgraded by reason of status. Then on the way back, if AA cancels their flights, they would reroute with whoever is available, which might (gasp) be UA.

WOW! I thought alot of guru's would jump on this one. For an additional discussion see:
www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum101/HTML/001485.html

I would say D, a roundtrip ticket using 2 one-way fares.

It would be a roundtrip ticket assuming you purchased the entire itinerary at one time. In that case, the entire ticket would have a single ticket number "plated" on the first carrier, AA. The ticket number would begin with 001 followed by 10 digits and would have 4 flight coupons. Even the two coupons on the return on UA would have the same ticket # - hence a roundtrip ticket.

It would be based on 2 one-way fares, since you are using different carriers in each direction - that is, you are using a 1-way through fare on AA on the outbound and a 1-way through fare on UA on the return.

Just my guess. I'll be waiting to see the correct answer. Interesting question.

A little clarification on the fare purchased is in order here. The psgr purchased a "super saver" fare which allows outbound travel on AA and inbound travel on UA.

(These types of tickets were common before deregulation - and are still found elsewhere in the world, but not so much here anymore,
as airlines are not content with relinquishing half your money to a competitor... they want it all!).

HINT: Ignore the fare...just what type of trip is this?



[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-10-2001).]

Well, it does not seem to be a circle trip.

What is the definition of a 'point-to-point' ticket?

Perhaps a roundtrip ticket.....but I suspect it might be ' a bonanza for the FF' somehow. But how, hmmmmm. Can you somehow get mileage for both directions on both airlines?

It appears to the beginner (me) that one would earn segments and miles actually flown for each airline, since they are not marketing partners (UA and AA).

Let us know!

Well, you're leaving one place, going somewhere else, and coming back to where you started. That looks like a round trip to me.

From the passenger's (layman's) point of view, it could be "A, a round trip ticket", since the pax doesn't care about the airline's ticketing nomenclature and just wants to get from point A to B round trip regardless of airline.

From a ticketing or travel agent's point of view, it could be "D, a round trip ticket that uses two one way fares". If the agent booked it that way.

In the other thread you linked to in your message, you explain that it's definately not a circle trip ticket due to the fact that the outbound and inbound routes do indeed mirror each other.

I'm not familiar with what a point to point ticket is -- sounds like a generic term for any ticket since every ticket is point to point, no?

But, knowing you, tvl4free, being the expert that you are on finding ways to twist the ticketing rules to the frequent flyer's advantage, I'll bet on "E. a "bonanza for the frequent flyer" type RT tkt" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

If it is, please tell us more!

Southwest airlines 'hopscotches' across the country. If you were to board their aircraft
having purchased individual tickets for each of these separate flights, you would have purchased 'point-to-point' tickets.

Using our example, buying a ticket from Newark to Chicago, then another from Chicago to LA, and then two more back to ORD and EWR, you would have purchased 'point-to-point' tickets.

'Point-to-point' ticketing can SOMETIMES save you money BIGTIME! Suppose you need to go from EWR to LAX and the cheapest 'walk up' fare is $1,400. So you call AA and they book you from EWR thru ORD to LAX. Fourteen hundred bucks! However, had you known that there is a cheap fare of say $ 250.00 from EWR to ORD and another fare of say $ 350.00 from ORD to LAX - you could have purchased the two 'point-to-point' tickets - and taken the EXACT same flights from EWR to ORD and on to LAX - and saved yourself $ 800!!!

Since we know that our psgr purchased a 'THRU FARE'(which is any fare that allows one to connect THRU some intermediate point) - we know that it was not a 'point-to-point' tkt - and this answer is, therefore, eliminated.

The travel agent who booked this reservation entered his AA and UA FF nos. into the record - which the psgr verified at check-in, both in EWR and LAX - and each separate account was credited with the trip's mileage.

But forget the fare!!! We only want to know what type of TRIP this psgr took... and the type of trip has nothing to do with the FARE that he purchased...and is determined strictly by the itinerary! Was it a one way, round trip, circle trip, and maybe we should consider an open jaw, too?




[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-11-2001).]

It is a roundtrip on two differnct carriers and not a smart one if you want to accumulate more miles. Stick with one carrier!

Al

Afang,

This might be a good ticket if you are trying for status on both UA and AA. Nice to have both in your back pocket.

He had no choice! It was booked by a corporate travel department - and they
select his flights and determine the lowest fare!

Clearly he needs to look for a new job!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif How is this the lowest fare? It looks like it would price out at full fare Y. Yet you say this is some sort of "super saver" fare. Web specials don't have one-way fares do they?

Anyways, back to the original question: I think it is a round trip because:

• pax returns to point of origin
• stops over at turn around point only
• it's all on one itinerary

Well, that's my guess.

FewMiles..

------------------
Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage: http://home.webflyer.com/fewmiles/AA/

Travel4Free:
I'm slowly getting the hang of this.
Lets say I do the following (which I do)

Ticket 1
EWR-LAS(Monday)
LAS-EWR (Wednesday) on CO $ 300 Rt

Ticket 2
LAS-SFO (Monday-departs 1 hr after CO arrives in above ticekt 1)
SFO-LAS Wed on HP $120 RT (Arrives 1 hour before CO in ticket 1 departs)


What I've done is buy two separate Round Trip tickets. Have I also used Point to Point ticketing to save money over the cost of a ERW-SFO RT midweek ($2,200)? Can point to point ticketing encompass more than one airline on the outbound or in bound sections?

[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 01-11-2001).]

I'm not really sure that I understand your question...or that the format is really what your getting at, so just let me ramble for a bit.

Under the scenario that you have presented, you are not really purchasing point-to-point tickets, rather you are buying 2 separate round trip tickets. Point-to-point tkts involve the purchase of a one way fare for each individual segment.

To qualify as point-to-point, you would have had to purchase a OW tkt from EWR to LAS, then another OW tkt on to SFO, and then two more back to EWR (you would have a total of four OW tkts).

As you know, OW tkts are generally more expensive than RT tkts. And the cheapest RT tkts in the US today, generally requires outbound and inbound travel on the same carrier.

Our original amigo, Mr. Gomez, was able to find a 'super saver" fare which did allow outbound travel on AA and inbound travel on UA. This would be very unusual today. However, even if he had purchased the highest fare available (Y)...this would not have determined the TYPE OF TRIP he took. ONLY the itinerary determines the type of trip (OW,RT,CT,or OJ).

If your asking me if it is possible to string together a bunch of point-to-point OW
fares on different airlines to create a round trip or circle trip, etc., sure, why not? But if your asking if you can travel on a RT ticket using two different carriers (one on the outbound and another on the return), probably not today (but that would depend on the rules of the fare).

If your asking if you can mix and match airlines on your trip using OW point-to-point
fares ie, Delta to LAS, UA to SFO, HP back to
LAS, and then CO back to EWR, sure it could be done, but this would be more expensive, than the itinerary you have outlined.

I know that you probably travel on biz, so you're probably in a rush to get to where your going. So my final question to you is, RU harvesting the maximim number of segments
allowable on your EWR-LAS-SFO trips?

Since I don't what type of fare you travel on, I won't be able to quote EXACT perrmissible routings, but here R some which
would probable work (just guessing now):

Novice flies: EWR-SFO
Novice elite flies: EWR-LAS-SFO
Novice silver flies: EWR-IAH-LAS-SFO
Gold flies (no longer novice): EWR-IAH-LAS-PHX-SFO

Tvl4free flies: EWR-DTW-CLE-DFW-IAH-LAS-PHX-LAX-ONT-SFO!


Hope this helps!

See ya in the sky, if you're up front, of course!



[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-11-2001).]

Oh, really?

Thanks, Travel4Free:
The main point is to do a midweek out and back from EWR to SFO without paying $2,200. Thus, the separate, RT tickets to LAS, where no Saturday night stay is required.
I agree wholeheartedly the the best way to harvest miles is: EWR-DTW-CLE-DFW-IAH-LAS and return. I typically do EWR-IAH-LAS, sometimes EWR-CLE-IAH-LAS if I can get the cheap RT fare with the extra stops. I guess I just need to work a little harder to get DTW (ugh!!) and DFW in there as well. Thanks for the tips.

Well sure. This is the itinerary in question:

EWR-AA-ORD-AA-LAX
LAX-UA-ORD-UA-EWR

The pax is going EWR to LAX, using a mirror route on the outbound and inbound. I suppose it would be a circle trip if the pax's destination was ORD as well as LAX, but you didn't say that. I think. I don't know. Whatever. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif

Anothony, don't distress - you're SOO close!

In fact, the closest so far!

Is the return portion an EXACT mirror image of the outbound?

EXCELLENT job on the hotel comparisons BTW, I'll need your help on that B/4 long!

No, because travel is on two different airlines. Still http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif though

FewMiles..

------------------
Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage: http://home.webflyer.com/fewmiles/AA/

both D and E

Yeah, what FewMiles said. They're not an exact mirror due to the different carriers. I was going to mention that; it was on the tip of my typing fingers as I entered my last message, but I figured that the routing was the overriding factor in determining if a ticket was circle trip and that the carrier is irrelevant.

So then.

I am now convinced that the answer is "All of the Above." And that's my final answer, Regis! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

BTW, if a particular fare is eligible to be booked on different carriers, what would I look for in the fare rules? Would it show up on the list of permissible routings?

I must be missing something because I think it's (ignoring the fare, as you said) a plain old round trip because the point of origin is the same and the final destination is the same. I don't think the fact that there's a connection in ORD in both directions matters because it's just a connection.

I have one for you, tvl4free. I did this business trip itinerary in October and had an argument about ticketing with the company travel agent:

Oct 15: HNL-SFO (UA)
Oct 18: SFO-ORD-BOS (UA)
Oct 19: BOS-LGA (DL Shuttle)
Oct 22: JFK-SFO (UA)
Oct 23: SFO-LAS (UA Shuttle)
Oct 26: LAS-SFO (UA Shuttle)
Oct 28: SFO-HNL (UA)

What types of tickets was this trip? I thought (and priced it out this way) that I should have used an open jaw between HNL-BOS and JFK-HNL, with free stopovers in SFO. Then one-way DL shuttle ticket and a separate "inner" r/t between SFO-LAS. I priced the entire thing out at around 1600, before the company discount.

Company travel agent said I needed three separate "trips" because my way wasn't legal.

r/t HNL-SFO
open jaw SFO-ORD-BOS JFK-SFO (plus oneway DL shuttle)
r/t SFO-LAS

Her way priced out almost $300 more before discounts.

I think she was clueless because I was able to price it out my way on united.com.

Since it was company travel, rather than argue, I just accepted her way, but I think she wasted $300 of the companies money.

-David

Something's not quite kosher here...how many S/O's did the fare allow? In responding below I will assume it was two.

Breaking the fare on the west coast is almost always the cheaper way to go. You've stated that this was not the case, however, and so I would definately have purchased thru united.com - since airlines will generally honor anything which auto-prices.

The cheaper RT thru fares out of HI. allow two free S/O's. However, the open-jaw will count as one of them...and so stopping in SFO twice would give U too many to use a thru fare. If this was the case, I must side with your agent. Sorry!.

However, if (???) the united.com site was giving you a thru fare with unlimited S/O's - I would have jumped the fence - and sided with you!

It's good to have tvl4free on your side.


Yes. For example:

ROUTING C002 FROM CJS-AM/MX-MEX-
TO AM/MX-CUN-MX-LIM*
OR TO AM-LIM*




[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-12-2001).]

Sometimes it's difficult to see the forest for the trees!

Anthonyanthony was almost there, but FewMiles picked up on it first.

EWR-AA-ORD-AA-LAX
LAX-UA-ORD-UA-EWR

Answer B, point-to-point, has been eliminated in a previous post.

By definition, a round trip (itinerary) is composed of a return portion which is an EXACT "mirror image" of the outbound journey.
(Basically, the psgr will be doing the same thing in both directions, just reversed on the return).

Since our psgr, Mr. Gomez, traveled outound on AA and returned on UA - we do not have a "mirror image" - therefore, we cannot have a round trip. Answers A,D, and E are therefore eliminated, since all reference the term "round trip".

Circle trips, too, are determined by a process of elimination. If we don't have a OW, a RT, or an open-jaw, we must, by the process of elimination, have a circle trip.

The answer is C, circle trip.

Well, enough for today!


This is an actual training question given by a major carrier. I'm told that nobody ever gets it right!






[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-12-2001).]

Dhammer: Going back to your two trains, the way to solve the problem is simply to turn the two trains around. Send the LA one west at 60 MPH and the Boston one east at 85 MPH. The two trains would disappear from the realm of mathematics exams forever... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I guess this trip is a bonanza for the Frequent Flyer. Also, here's my SWAG at the ticket scenario:

The travel department bought two round-trip tickets. At the travelers outbound date/time, there were no seats available on UA, and at his return date/time, there were no seats available on AA. HOWEVER, buying a RT EWR-LAX on AA, with a return in the distant future AND a RT LAX-EWR with a return in the distant future was significantly cheaper than two one-way fares. Would I ever want my corporate travel dept to do this??? No...because if I fly this route again, I could run into trouble with future tickets being deemed illegal. But hey...it's a guess...

I know I delved back into the airfares a bit, but only to justify why someone would do this. Sorry, but I can't get past the fact that, it today's world, this ticket would be EXPENSIVE. The scenarios I've had to do something like this involved ALL airlines being pretty well sold-out of seats, resulting in full-Y tickets.

I think it's a round trip, based purely on the semantics of the question posed.

The question was not what kind of itinerary, ticketing, or reservation was made. It was what kind of "trip" was made.

According to dictonary.com, a "round trip" is "A trip from one place to another and back, usually over the same route."

The definition makes no mention of carriers, fares, or permissable stopovers. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

2 Many Miles: Methinks you're reading too deeply into this. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

tvl4free: Thanks for starting a great thread! One last question: Can this ticket be booked on a "thru-fare" nowadays, or would it price out to full Y composed of two one-way fares on each of the two carriers?

FewMiles..

------------------
Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage: http://home.webflyer.com/fewmiles/AA/

So by your definition, if I fly from LAX to LGA and stop in ORD on the way out but DEN on the way back, it's not a round trip?

A circle trip always has more than one stop besides the starting point.

It would probably price as two OW's, Y or maybe two OW's which were discounted.



Do you actually mean stop OR connect in ORD and/or DEN?

Regardless of whether you mean stop OR connect, both trips would be considered as circle trips because the return is not a "mirror image" of the outbound.

The following definition deserves very close examination:

From the tarriff, I give you Rule 5:

"Circle Trip means any trip, the ultimate destination of which is the point of origin, but which includes a stop at at least ONE other point, and which is not made via the same routing in both directions."

Note that there does not have to be an EXTRA stop in addition to the turn around point:

IAD-LHR(connection)-FRA(stop)-IAD

or for example:

LAX-ORD(connection)-LGA(stop)-DEN(connection)-LAX

The most common example will still be:

A--->B(stop)--->C(stop)--->A





[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-14-2001).]

I have a different perspective on Point-To-Point that varies from some of the preceding responses and comments.

Point-to-point ticketing may also be Round Trip fares, among others. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

An example of Point-To-Point Round Trip ticketing would be:

1st Round Trip Ticket
LAX-ELP (Coupon 1) - Outbound
ELP-LAX (Coupon 2) - Return

2nd Round Trip Ticket
ELP-DAL (Coupon 1) - Outbound
DAL-ELP (Coupon 2) - Return

Flown in the following order:
(Creating a Point-To-Point itinerary)[*]Outbound
LAX-ELP (Coupon 1) - Outbound from 1st Round Trip Ticket)
ELP-DAL (Coupon 1) - Outbound from 2nd Round Trip Ticket)
[*]Return
DAL-ELP (Coupon 2) - Return from 2nd Round Trip Ticket)
ELP-LAX (Coupon 2) - Return from 1st Round Trip Ticket)

By the way, this example would circumvent the Wright Amendment. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Another story for another day.

Tickets are not point-to-point in and of themselves, but become point-to-point when a non-thru segment is combined with at least one other segment, thus creating the point-to-point concept. They may be issued on the same or separate ticket stock or record locator or itinerary. I recall paper tickets that when the entire itinerary was on one set of ticket stock, thru routings were designated differently than point-to-point routings, by either an "X" or an "O" between the line item listing of segments. It's important to weigh the pros and cons when considering point-to-point ticketing. And there are both!

For example, Point-to-Point Vs Thru Routings: [*]Checked Luggage
Point-to-point requires checked luggage to be claimed and rechecked at each point. Thru routings may be checked to your final destination.
[*]Pricing
Pricing requires careful consideration as it can vary greatly. No simple formula here. At times, point-to-point prevails, at other times thru routings.
[*]Segment or Mileage Accrual
This can also vary greatly depending on the airline and the routings.
With Southwest, point-to-point is an advantage in this category. However, it may not be when you factor in other considerations.
[*] Protection With Flight Delays Or Irregularities
This can be a bit tricky. With thru routings, I feel you are much better protected, especially with any flight delays along the way. With point-to-point you are expected to comply with check-in requirements at each respective point. If you are delayed along the way and do not meet the check-in rules, you could be treated differently depending on whether you are booked as a thru or point-to-point passenger.

In the end, it all boils down to a balancing act by taking everything into consideration, determining what works best for you, carefully weighing the pros and cons and doing your homework. And of course, last but not least, perusing FlyerTalk.

Of course your right,Mr Limo, you can have point-to-point RT tkts... I didn't mention that.

And the baggage issue...is a story in and of its self!

Notwithstanding that the original itinerary posted here was determined to be a cicle trip, because the outbound didn't match the return, I give you the definitions of RT,CT, and OJ from the tarriff, Rule 5:

Round Trip means any trip, the ultimate destination of which is the point of origin, and which is made via the same routing in both directions.

Circle Trip means any trip, the ultimate destination of which is the point of origin, but which includes a stop at at least one other point, and which is not made via the same routing in both directions.

Open Jaw Trip means any trip which is essentially of a round trip or circle trip nature but the outward point of departure and the inward point of arrival or the outward point of arrival and inward point of departure of which are not the same.


Well, enough for today...and perhaps enough for this thread...?

Thanks for the interesting scenarios and comments!



[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 01-14-2001).]

What is the precise definition of "routing"?

Is it
(a) just the cites that you go through
(b) the cities that you go through and the order of them (in the case of a trip involving a change in two or more locations)
(c) either a or b above as well as the carrier
(d) if the carrier matters, is it only the marketing carrier, or also the operating carrier? Specifically, what about commuter arms of major carriers?

Also, if the routing is as you specified in the first post wiht AA on the outbound and UA on the return, but the UA portion of the tarriff allowed for a stopover in ORD, and that had been exercised, would the presence of the stopover have have altered the routing?

ROUTING

THE CARRIER(S) AND/OR THE CITIES AND/OR CLASS OF SERVICE AND/OR TYPE OF AIRCRAFT VIA WHICH TRANSPORTATION IS PROVIDED BETWEEN TWO POINTS.


www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum20/HTML/001067.html




[This message has been edited by tvl4free (edited 02-27-2001).]