I had about 10 trades in the past. I had 5K CO for 15K AA, 14K AA and 15K DL. I could only do two of AA per year because of the AA restrictions. I also had some 2K CO or 2K DL for 9K PCR. So, I guess I also one of those crappy traders :D

Points.com
 

I've been waiting since August 29 for a trade to be completed on points.com.....it's beginning to look like I am out 8000 skymiles and 80 bucks.....:td:......anybody else using points.com and what was the outcome?

Are you saying you completed a trade, points.com deducted the miles and charge your credit card but didn't transfer the miles from the other party?
I have only one data point but I did a trade it went through just fine.

Yes, that's correct......under the get & move tab....I have had numerous on-line chats with them, and I keep getting "wait another week".....:rolleyes:

When did you complete your trade?

about 3 weeks ago

I'd threaten to contact the BBB unless they help you...here's their HQ contact info:

Points International Ltd.
T. 416.595.0000
F. 416.595.6444

171 John Street
Toronto, Ontario
Canada M5T 1X3

I especially hate that in order to talk to them in person, you have to pay for an upgrade to gold member.

If it makes you feel better, I believe that with persistance you will get the points you were expecting!

I have found in the past that email conversations does not tend to have great results, but calling them usually does. You might want to mention that you will post on their facebook site and here your unhapiness. That has worked for me in the past.

BBB is a sham. They will do nothing for you.
Contact the Attourney General instead or contact the police in the city where this company does business.

Seriously.

There have been NUMEROUS threads on the fact that Points.com basically S*CK

I have had many dealings with them in the past. They are only good for one type of transaction:

If you buy or transfer miles between airlines, they run that system and will honor the move. And even then, good luck if there are timing glitches (like, you saw an award fare, moved miles, hoped they will credit in 3 days or how ever long the airline says it takes, and they fail to, causing your award fare to go away by then)

Sharebuilder was THE WORST of WORST of all things involving points.com way back when over 100 of us did a promo with AA and points.com involving that company among others.

I sure hope you get your miles but what you actually need to do is find any and all email address of execs at Points.com and fire off multi messages to them including all details of what you have going on. There was one we contacted back then that would go on vacations or be unavailable or act stupid but when 100 people contacted her boss and exposed HIS personal details ON this site, we started to get answers. I will try to find old info on it but advise all you know to avoid the company at all costs. There are some entities, like Points.com, that just plain do not do things right. Some may think maybe they have changed but I don't buy it.

MM

After writing the above, I did a rather fast search in every thread I've ever subscribed to since I joined FT in 2004. Below are some Points.com threads where people had problems... and then, the last one is the coup de grâce.

See posts from the final pages to find how it ended, and a list of MANY email addresses of execs at the company in 2005. Some may still be there. Post 1142 lists them, but previous posts may have phone numbers and even direct line extensions. You'll have to look. And yes, you can tell I DO NOT like Points.com! Good luck.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...ot-joking.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...oints-com.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-zip-code.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...nd-2005-a.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-com-saga.html

coup de grâce:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...-per-mile.html

Thank you all for the information....I am a very patient person, but this is getting really frustrating.....:mad:

indeed, and if a company says it takes say 3 months to get X miles, I could stomach that. BUT if they say it takes 4 weeks to get those miles and you have to fight and wait 3 months, THAT is wrong. Points.com has been very guilty of that on many occasions as you can see.

I did numerous exchanges of miles/points at Points.com but only for Amazon.com Starbukcs which all went smooth ...
At one occasion it took almost a week to get the voucher whereas other events took place at the same day ...

I advice you to go the way mentioned earlier here ... good luck :)

I'm clearly missing something, but how is it that people are wanting to trade 20k-40k AA miles, when you can only receive a max of 15k for $150?

Seems to me if two people each belong to the same rewards programs, they should be able to transfer points to each others accounts......I guess the problem would be finding a way to mutually guarantee the points are actually transferred as agreed by both parties......

Yes they can transfer points between the accounts, but there is a 15k cap per calendar year with AA for $150 fee. Some people on points.com want to trade upwards of 50k AA miles, which I don't see possible.

Points.com continues in their efforts to fleece consumers
 

Points.com and PayPal have announced that they are now offering UA, AA and AC loyalty members the opportunity to redeem points for PayPal credit, effectively converting points to cash.

The rates are ATROCIOUS.

Bad:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thewan...mage_thumb.png


Worse:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thewan...age_thumb1.png


Simply unconscionable:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thewan...age_thumb2.png

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/thewan...ive-ever-seen/
http://blog.points.com/2011/02/09/po...se-your-miles/
https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2011/0...les-into-cash/

So they'll sell you those 120k miles for around $1500 or whatever it is with 100% bonus, then turn around and buy it back from you for $100. That's so nice of them.

If anyone is thinking about selling their 120k US Air miles I'll give you double :).

Well, now we have a fair market valuation for Citibank's 1099s!:p

Exactly what I thought, 4/100's of a cent is the price that AA is willing to pay to buy them back (through it's Partner Points.com), that must be the cash value according to AA.

Wow, that US Airways ratio is insane. I'm willing to offer at least 2x that to anyone looking to sell :p.

disclaimer: I'm not actually going to buy miles from you and it's against FT terms to do so

US Airways Forex
 

That converts to an exchange rate of 22.91191 Pounds to the Dollar on the US Airways Forex

([120589/1000]*19)/100

Gonna really kill off tourism in England?:p

Too bad I can't use $100 paypal $ and buy 120K US Airways miles. That would buy 2 off peak Biz seats US-Europe on US. Availability is limited but was able to use 120K from my US account for my wife & I LAX-PHL-MAD. Less than $40pp in taxes. ^

to be fair I doubt the fault lies with points.com I am sure it lies with the airlines as they will not offer squat to points.com points.com will never be attractive unless airlines buy and sell without a huge spread and that seems very unlikely to happen.

It never ceases to amaze me how ready people will assert "fleecing", or sometimes even fraud or scams, for *completely voluntary and transparent transactions*. Points.com isn't misleading anyone... they clearly publish their conversion rates and make good on them. If you don't like them, you don't need to be "fleeced"... just don't use them. Look elsewhere, or don't convert points at all. Points.com is a private business, not a public service nor a charity, and is entitled to set whatever price they'd like in the pursuit of profits. If McDonald's raised the price of their cheeseburger to $50, would you assert it is a scam/fraud/fleecing, too?

Yeah, "fleecing" is probably too strong but I think the OP was using this term because the target audience (FT readers) relate very well to the horrible exchange rates Points.com offers. Yeah, I doubt that Points.com could be taken to civil court for its outrageous rates. Incidentally, another example of this kind of business are the Payday loan firms. Yeah, the users---er, probably most of them---volutarily enter into a transaction for a cash advance and sometimes pay just outrageous interest charges on a short-term loan (I still don't understand why usury laws don't apply to these types of loans) Okay, maybe "fleece" isn't the right term but "reamed, soaked" or something. Some foreign exchange outfits (especially at some airports) probably, one could argue, near "fleece" people who are naive about foreign exchange business. Re the McDonald's scenario: well, if McDonald's started charging $50 for a cheeseburger, I think there would have to be rather huge flashing signs all over the place since, I imagine, many people just order w/o looking at the menu prices!

The "miles for cash" or "miles to pay for your ticket" are an absolute scam. While I don't remember the exact dollar or mileage amounts, last summer my wife and I were putting together a trip DFW/FRA/FLR/MUC/DFW. The booking was Lufthansa in business class. Quoted fare was in the $20K range for the two of us. AMEX was more than happy to suggest that I buy the tickets and they would use Reward points to pay for them at $.01 per point, meaning burning about 2,000,000 of my AMEX points. Instead I transferred about $250K Amex points to my CO OnePass account and used 10% of the points that AMEX was suggesting

That's my point. A bad deal doesn't equate to "fleecing"; it is merely something you should avoid. For that matter, points.com very low conversion rates are actually the best option for some people interested in quickly liquidating points they have no other use or desire for.

Anyone may be taken to court. To assert that a fairly disclosed and marketed bad deal would make them liable is preposterous.

High risk loans won't be offered unless high rates may be coupled with them. There is nothing "fleecing" about such arrangements, and the mere existence of silly usury laws doesn't make them inherently logical. Paying a very high rate makes perfect sense for some people, and it's a grave mistake for others. A properly-run business that offers a deal that some may foolishly use (while others wisely use) doesn't mean that business is fleecing; it simply means they are making money off some stupid people.

No, they don't "fleece" either. They charge high rates that can be beat elsewhere. There's nothing immoral nor illegal about it. Someone willing to pay the rate or not willing to research alternatives first is responsible for their actions, as such outfits fully disclose their exchange rates. I just returned from London and I was in a situation where I found myself short-handed for cash, and despite knowing the many more frugal options available, decided to waste essentially $5 in conversion fees to save myself time and stress. Others might make the transaction not knowing better. None of us are being "fleeced".

Not giving a customer full disclosure of the price being paid and/or a fair chance to remedy the situation if they are misled is a completely different issue than "fleecing" as it relates to a bad deal or exorbitant price. Any business should be free to offer products and services at rates that are unappealing to most, should they choose.

Incorrect. You need a refresher on what "scam" means. A bad deal is not a scam, and in this case, Amex is not scamming because they clearly disclose the value you receive. If 1 cent per point is not a desirable return, don't use it. For that matter, 1 cent per point *does* appeal to many people who aren't inclined to use their points in a more lucrative manner. For example, someone with 10,000 points that are near expiration, who doesn't plan to use the airline much in the future, and has no interest in extending expiration and babysitting the account.

avoid them and spread the word
 

as stated in every instance I see a thread about points.com...

DNU - DO NOT USE!

Here are examples as to why I know this:


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...ot-joking.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...oints-com.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-zip-code.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...nd-2005-a.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-com-saga.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/s-p-m...dishonest.html


coup de grâce:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...-per-mile.html

It is not TOTALLY useless. If you get a small number of miles in a programme because you take a flight on an airline you would never ever normally use, you can usually convert them to something you can use. Yes, the rate is terrible (my 1000 US miles got me 100 Priority Club points!) but that is 100 PC points more than I would otherwise have had ....

(And I got some PC bonus points during a 'use our partners' promo!)

When the ratios are this out of whack (particularly the US numbers) I do consider it a fleecing. When you read the quote from the PayPal guy - "Airline customers who are frustrated with blackout dates, and the lack of availability of rewards redemption options can now get their money quickly into their PayPal account and then spend the money the way they’d like." - it is clear that their goal is to take advantage of the uninformed rather than help a consumer make an informed decision. Any business transaction that is based on only one side understanding the actual value of the transaction is a scam, even if the terms are fully documented.

...and I have transferred say 3000 miles to another person using the airline's portal for doing this, which is essentially operated by points.com and it has in fact worked. But it is not 100% reliable.

There have been instances where this practice has NOT worked for me and others... where some glitch takes place--who knows what (system upgrade, an issue with your computer, theirs, the airlines', whatever). It is in this area where I will note that one should have avoided points.com. They are not equipped/willing to help fix things if and when they go wrong. Hence, the best thing to do is to avoid them if possible!

For example, if those 1,000 US miles of yours did not convert over for you to PC, how much effort would you have put in to recovering them? Given that, after several phone calls to each party, both PC and US tell you to deal with Points.com, what would you think you would do about it and what would you expect Points.com to do about it for you? All I can say is that if your miles transferred over to PC then you were dayummmm lucky! Problems with them HAVE happened and they have never fixed them for people.

To me a good company is one that can solve issues when they go wrong, not operate as if they never will go wrong or deny it when they do and not even have the personnel available to solve said issues.

I agree 100%!

You may consider it "fleecing", but by definition, it is not because it is *voluntary*. No one is being taken advantage of, as everything is fully disclosed. If there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't stay in business. If there's an opportunity for a company to profit by offering more lucrative conversion rates, a wise entrepreneur should create it.

In my option, casinos are a bad deal. Insurance is a bad deal. Guess what I do? I avoid them. I'd never claim they are fleecing willing participants.

but casinos also offer education on how to avoid the problems associated with gambling and there are other things to do there

Yes, but that's outside the scope of my analogy. Casinos also have blackjack tables and cocktails, while Points.com does not... so? My analogy was intended to show how businesses about that sell something that is a bad deal or otherwise undesirable or has better alternatives. As long as they are open and honest with their pricing, they aren't fleecing anyone, they are simply catering to the fools who provide the demand.

I see your point dot com lol

but I also wish that for once there'd be some rules about how companies should refrain from screwing people--ie, even being allowed to go as far as they do.

oh wait we dont live in Northern Europe lol

Wow, this company is even worse than I had first imagined. I sent an email about a week ago to Points.com and still no answer. The website is not real clear to me. I am so glad that I didn't take the bait and become a sucker with this company. I'll be surprised if it lasts much longer. Company reminds me of the foreign exchange con artists that approach naive and unsuspecting tourists getting off the trains in Mongolia.

Do those con artists provide accurate information and fully disclose their rate and process? I don't think there's anything confusing about Points.com. They publish everything, and if you don't like the exchange rates, why utilize them?

The problem with points.com--and the reason why forums like this one are a valuable tool for anyone consuming anything--is not necessarily with what they sell or how they both market it and display it, rather, the problem is what happens AFTER the fact.

They have very very very poor results in solving any issues that take place.

What if an order doesnt go through
what if miles do not post
what if a transfer fails
what if a service changes
how do you get in touch with a live voice who will help you
will that live voice really help you
do they offer concessions if the problem is owned by them
I could go on.

The problem with points.com--and a lot of companies even outside the scope of our miles and points world--is, as I have found in my own experience over the years--that they have NO or very little accountability and one needs to pull teeth to get anywhere with them.

I have heard this over the years so not much has changed. It is because of this that I personally will continue to display in every thread about points.com the list of links I can bring up that outline these issues.

I recommend NOT using the service at all. There are far better ones out there and if there are not, I would still not use them.

:)MM

Fair enough. You are suggesting people don't use the company because they have poor customer service / problem resolution. That's far different from suggesting that their exchange ratio amounts to fleecing/fraud/scam, as the title of this thread and the OP suggest. That's the assertion I'm challenging. I have no idea how their customer service is... I have no reason to use them.