Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm
Last edit by: fti
People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.
The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.
Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.
Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.
CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.
Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.
If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.
To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.
To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.
The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:
Other Letters:
Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.
Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612
Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612
Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt
Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt
Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1
Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1
Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC
Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC
Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)
Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88
Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1
Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla
Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1
Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1
Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm
Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2
Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm
Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2
Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl
Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz
14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG
19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG
Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl
Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz
CMB-DFW EY F
FARE IS GONE
FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)
WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!
ex-CMB
Feb
Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia
Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21
May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
Jun
12 - lelee
Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas
Sep
Oct
Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4
Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
ex-AUH
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
27 - RICHKLHS
May
Jun
29 - yerffej201
Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao
Aug
Sep
Oct
Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)
Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff
ex-DFW
Jan
Feb
Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1
Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1
Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Oct
Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris
Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)
The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.
Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.
Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.
CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.
Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.
If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.
To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.
To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.
The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:
Other Letters:
Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.
Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612
Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612
Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt
Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt
Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1
Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1
Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC
Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC
Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)
Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88
Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1
Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla
Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1
Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1
Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm
Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2
Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm
Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2
Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl
Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz
14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG
19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG
Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl
Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz
CMB-DFW EY F
FARE IS GONE
FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)
WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!
ex-CMB
Feb
Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia
Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21
May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
Jun
12 - lelee
Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas
Sep
Oct
Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4
Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
ex-AUH
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
27 - RICHKLHS
May
Jun
29 - yerffej201
Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao
Aug
Sep
Oct
Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)
Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff
ex-DFW
Jan
Feb
Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1
Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1
Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Oct
Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris
Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)
[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!
Apr 5, 2014, 7:11 am
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SAT
Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR
Posts: 5,898
If LX were so bold to ignore CTA's orders, I think there is enough frustration and dissatisfaction on CTA's side (remember, they are just people with feelings too) to call LX's bluff and revoke the certificate. But that is pure speculation on my part
Apr 5, 2014, 8:22 am
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chicago
Programs: AA Exp Plat, UA 1K MM, DL Plat Hyatt Globalist, MGM Noir
Posts: 882
Our outcome is also dependent on how or if the GIC rules in the original 7 case. Should the GIC rule against The Seven, it is game over for them and most probably us, the 88 gang.
Apr 5, 2014, 8:52 am
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: UA-1K, MM, Hilton-Diamond, Marriott-Titanium
Posts: 4,432
I thought I read up thread, or maybe it was on a private group thread, that GIC rejected LX request. I can't see it now in this thread. I know I didn't imagine it.
Apr 5, 2014, 9:32 am
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: 10^7 mm from Ȱ
Programs: Hyatt D/HHonors D/ SPG P/ Marriott P/ IHG P/ UA 1K/ AA EXP/ DL D
Posts: 1,976
Apr 5, 2014, 10:32 am
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: SAT
Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR
Posts: 5,898
Two reasons... LX may have decided that they will do what CTA will order them to do, but they are fighting that 'order' tooth and nail.
While CTA can't enforce their own orders, it can revoke the certificate and that would be a big issue for them.
Also, remember, CTA already ordered LX to remove tariff 5F. What will CTA do if LX refuses?
My somewhat rough analogy is this:
A cop can't make you put down a gun. You have the option to refuse. He then has the option to shoot you.
Putting down the gun seems the better choice in my mind. LX seems to think they can bully the cop into getting back into his cop car and drive back to the station
Apr 5, 2014, 12:32 pm
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chicago
Programs: AA Exp Plat, UA 1K MM, DL Plat Hyatt Globalist, MGM Noir
Posts: 882
I believe what you are referring to is that the Federal Court refused to hear LX's appeal. As I understand it, the GIC case is still pending.
Last edited by OnAMileHigh; Apr 5, 2014 at 2:36 pm
Apr 5, 2014, 12:53 pm
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA. UA 1K, reluctant but * best in class * DL FO/MM. Former BA jumpseat rider and scourge of Dilbertian management and apologists. As LX might - and do - say: "....an experienced frequent flyer of international airlines"
Posts: 3,386
Two reasons... LX may have decided that they will do what CTA will order them to do, but they are fighting that 'order' tooth and nail.
While CTA can't enforce their own orders, it can revoke the certificate and that would be a big issue for them.
Also, remember, CTA already ordered LX to remove tariff 5F. What will CTA do if LX refuses?
My somewhat rough analogy is this:
A cop can't make you put down a gun. You have the option to refuse. He then has the option to shoot you.
Putting down the gun seems the better choice in my mind. LX seems to think they can bully the cop into getting back into his cop car and drive back to the station
While CTA can't enforce their own orders, it can revoke the certificate and that would be a big issue for them.
Also, remember, CTA already ordered LX to remove tariff 5F. What will CTA do if LX refuses?
My somewhat rough analogy is this:
A cop can't make you put down a gun. You have the option to refuse. He then has the option to shoot you.
Putting down the gun seems the better choice in my mind. LX seems to think they can bully the cop into getting back into his cop car and drive back to the station
Next, CTA doesn't operate in a vacuum.
Members of Canadian parliament are aware of operations so far, and will be aware of LX thumbing their noses at CTA if that happens in response to a ruling. They're going to be made aware, and so will the media. Awkward questions will be asked in public, immediately, of high-level politicos.
LX would be wrong if they imagine that the calculus of flagrant ignorance of a Canadian Federal agency ruling stops quietly in the CTA corridors.
"Foreign flag carrier openly flouting Canadian agency ruling!! Continuing to operate Canadian service!! CTA impotent to enforce!! Questions raised in Canadian parliament about consumer protections. Reneging gnomes need to be held to account" etc.
But I doubt this greatly.
CTA knows that. It doesn't mean they can't rule in favor of LX - unlikely though it seems now - but it does mean that they will ensure enforcement measures if these are required.
Temporary suspension of operating license into Canada might be one option. Since LX no doubt carries IATA dignitaries from EU to YUL on a regular basis in paid F and J, they really don't want that gravy train to be derailed
If anyone flies their itin and sits next to an IATA person on the YUL seg, then please, do pump them for the IATA version of this debacle....
Apr 5, 2014, 12:57 pm
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA. UA 1K, reluctant but * best in class * DL FO/MM. Former BA jumpseat rider and scourge of Dilbertian management and apologists. As LX might - and do - say: "....an experienced frequent flyer of international airlines"
Posts: 3,386
Update on BA/JL
On a separate note, I filed a formal complaint against BA and JL. Received a prompt response from a CTA official asking if I would consent to mediation. I agreed to this.
I may not be able to post relevant details from here on in, depending on whether the airlines enter mediation as well and if CTA requires confidentiality.
If they don't mediate and my formal complaint proceeds per the LX saga, as usual you'll get a full public account of the case.
I may not be able to post relevant details from here on in, depending on whether the airlines enter mediation as well and if CTA requires confidentiality.
If they don't mediate and my formal complaint proceeds per the LX saga, as usual you'll get a full public account of the case.
Apr 5, 2014, 5:23 pm
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
It's my understanding that the GIC does not even have to respond to the appeal. The fact that the GIC has sat on in for what six months tells us all we need to know about the GIC and their response.
Apr 5, 2014, 5:47 pm
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
First, selective enforcement is extremely unlikely. Since these complaints were aggregated, by CTA themselves, they've created a class. Other complaints outside the 88 may be handled individually but to rule in one way for one complainant among the 88 and another way, for another of the 88, is untenable.
Next, CTA doesn't operate in a vacuum.
Members of Canadian parliament are aware of operations so far, and will be aware of LX thumbing their noses at CTA if that happens in response to a ruling. They're going to be made aware, and so will the media. Awkward questions will be asked in public, immediately, of high-level politicos.
LX would be wrong if they imagine that the calculus of flagrant ignorance of a Canadian Federal agency ruling stops quietly in the CTA corridors.
"Foreign flag carrier openly flouting Canadian agency ruling!! Continuing to operate Canadian service!! CTA impotent to enforce!! Questions raised in Canadian parliament about consumer protections. Reneging gnomes need to be held to account" etc.
But I doubt this greatly.
CTA knows that. It doesn't mean they can't rule in favor of LX - unlikely though it seems now - but it does mean that they will ensure enforcement measures if these are required.
Temporary suspension of operating license into Canada might be one option. Since LX no doubt carries IATA dignitaries from EU to YUL on a regular basis in paid F and J, they really don't want that gravy train to be derailed
If anyone flies their itin and sits next to an IATA person on the YUL seg, then please, do pump them for the IATA version of this debacle....
Next, CTA doesn't operate in a vacuum.
Members of Canadian parliament are aware of operations so far, and will be aware of LX thumbing their noses at CTA if that happens in response to a ruling. They're going to be made aware, and so will the media. Awkward questions will be asked in public, immediately, of high-level politicos.
LX would be wrong if they imagine that the calculus of flagrant ignorance of a Canadian Federal agency ruling stops quietly in the CTA corridors.
"Foreign flag carrier openly flouting Canadian agency ruling!! Continuing to operate Canadian service!! CTA impotent to enforce!! Questions raised in Canadian parliament about consumer protections. Reneging gnomes need to be held to account" etc.
But I doubt this greatly.
CTA knows that. It doesn't mean they can't rule in favor of LX - unlikely though it seems now - but it does mean that they will ensure enforcement measures if these are required.
Temporary suspension of operating license into Canada might be one option. Since LX no doubt carries IATA dignitaries from EU to YUL on a regular basis in paid F and J, they really don't want that gravy train to be derailed
If anyone flies their itin and sits next to an IATA person on the YUL seg, then please, do pump them for the IATA version of this debacle....
(Granted, this was going east on an overnight flight )
Apr 5, 2014, 11:22 pm
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 389
By the way, to clarify something that was confusing me: 14-A-11 is the appeal that was dismissed the other day. I'm not sure that appeal was ever mentioned on this forum prior to its dismissal -- it seems to have been filed 2/26/14. A-402-13 is still alive and stayed pending the GiC's decision, though CTA will argue that the court doesn't have authority to hear the case.
Anyone in the G7 want to fill us in on what 14-A-11 was about?
Anyone in the G7 want to fill us in on what 14-A-11 was about?
Apr 5, 2014, 11:48 pm
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle
Programs: AS MVPG 75K
Posts: 2,574
The GiC may choose not to respond, but Transport Canada (the executive agency, not CTA the administrative tribunal) went through a formal process of collecting comments from the complainants and Swiss in order to prepare a recommendation to the GiC. I think it's pretty safe to assume that they will follow TC's recommendation.
Apr 6, 2014, 12:48 am
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: ATL
Programs: All of Them
Posts: 511
I wouldn't call Tokyo, as they likely have very little leeway to assist you (and are probably going to stick closely to the rules to boot). I would contact EY's central reservations line via Skype and ask them to change it for you, as other posters have successfully reporting doing. (I'll be doing that myself tomorrow.)
Apr 6, 2014, 12:44 pm
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: 10^7 mm from Ȱ
Programs: Hyatt D/HHonors D/ SPG P/ Marriott P/ IHG P/ UA 1K/ AA EXP/ DL D
Posts: 1,976